| Cardiff Sala saga continues 20:15 - May 9 with 8977 views | KeithHaynes |
From their OS.
The Swiss Federal Tribunal has decided that the Court of Arbitration in Sport doesn’t have jurisdiction to deal with Cardiff City’s claim for damages against FC Nantes.
This isn’t a surprise, and the Club has already prepared separate legal action against them which will be started straightaway as FC Nantes must be held responsible for the accident organised by their agent.
This will be to recover what the Club paid for Emiliano and additional damages for further consequential losses.
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 20:27 - May 9 with 4776 views | vetchonian |
They really are the stuff you get around a bath.....
how disgraceful suing also for consequential losses! |  |
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 22:15 - May 9 with 4658 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
Damages for getting relegated as a result of dubious actions of others has a precidient in the UK and Premier league.
West Ham coughed up £20m and paid a £5.5m fine over the signings of Tevez and Mascherano. Tevez was influential in West Ham having 3 more points than Sheff Utd in 2007.
In this case the speculation was "what would have West Ham done WITHOUT Tevez in particular". They stayed up by three points.
In the Cardiff case (if it gets that far) the speculation would be "what would Cardiff have done WITH Sala in their ranks" Cardiff city got relegated by 2 points (3 if you include goal difference)
Cardiff are suing a third party and not the team above them Brighton HA.
Dr P said it was over. He told me he is never wrong though so something does not add up here.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2009/mar/16/sheffield-united-west-ham-carlo
[Post edited 9 May 2023 22:20]
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 05:55 - May 10 with 4533 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 22:15 - May 9 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Damages for getting relegated as a result of dubious actions of others has a precidient in the UK and Premier league.
West Ham coughed up £20m and paid a £5.5m fine over the signings of Tevez and Mascherano. Tevez was influential in West Ham having 3 more points than Sheff Utd in 2007.
In this case the speculation was "what would have West Ham done WITHOUT Tevez in particular". They stayed up by three points.
In the Cardiff case (if it gets that far) the speculation would be "what would Cardiff have done WITH Sala in their ranks" Cardiff city got relegated by 2 points (3 if you include goal difference)
Cardiff are suing a third party and not the team above them Brighton HA.
Dr P said it was over. He told me he is never wrong though so something does not add up here.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2009/mar/16/sheffield-united-west-ham-carlo
[Post edited 9 May 2023 22:20]
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The difference between the Tevez thing and Sala is there is no “speculation” as to the effect his signing had. He played plenty of games, scored numerous goals including vital winners and was their player of the year.
When asking what would have happened with Sala the answer is anything. He could have scored forty goals and got them to the champions league. He could have pulled a hamstring in his first training session. He could also have been a massive flop. There’s no way of knowing what would have happened. |  |
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 08:45 - May 10 with 4448 views | Boundy |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 05:55 - May 10 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
The difference between the Tevez thing and Sala is there is no “speculation” as to the effect his signing had. He played plenty of games, scored numerous goals including vital winners and was their player of the year.
When asking what would have happened with Sala the answer is anything. He could have scored forty goals and got them to the champions league. He could have pulled a hamstring in his first training session. He could also have been a massive flop. There’s no way of knowing what would have happened. |
Warnock virtually guaranteed they'd have stayed up if he had played , so it must be true . Tan is now suing Nantes for 200,million ,but then more he concentrates on not losing face then the less money he'll spend on players whether freebies or not. What a s***show that Club is . | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 17:38 - May 10 with 4268 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 22:15 - May 9 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Damages for getting relegated as a result of dubious actions of others has a precidient in the UK and Premier league.
West Ham coughed up £20m and paid a £5.5m fine over the signings of Tevez and Mascherano. Tevez was influential in West Ham having 3 more points than Sheff Utd in 2007.
In this case the speculation was "what would have West Ham done WITHOUT Tevez in particular". They stayed up by three points.
In the Cardiff case (if it gets that far) the speculation would be "what would Cardiff have done WITH Sala in their ranks" Cardiff city got relegated by 2 points (3 if you include goal difference)
Cardiff are suing a third party and not the team above them Brighton HA.
Dr P said it was over. He told me he is never wrong though so something does not add up here.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2009/mar/16/sheffield-united-west-ham-carlo
[Post edited 9 May 2023 22:20]
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There was a massive difference there though, the Tevez transfer broke EPl rules over 3rd party ownership. Sheff Utd's case was that WHU should have been deducted points too.
Sala's transfer bears no comparison. Cardiff bought him, Cardiff owned him, Cardiff didn't put him on their insurance but tried to insure him after he'd died. Cardiff have lost this case 3 times, all their arguments have been thrown out.
Sheffield Utd's argument was about what DID happen not what MIGHT happen. Cardiff were pre season favourites for relegation, Warnock has never succesfully kept a team in the EPL, he takes them up but if he stays they come back down, 8 times I think. What he supposes would have happened is irrelevant.
PS, Warnock also had strong link to the dodgy agent and signed both his sons who would struggle in the Swansea league, of you're looking for dodgy doings, start there. | | | |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 20:15 - May 10 with 4197 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 17:38 - May 10 by SullutaCreturned |
There was a massive difference there though, the Tevez transfer broke EPl rules over 3rd party ownership. Sheff Utd's case was that WHU should have been deducted points too.
Sala's transfer bears no comparison. Cardiff bought him, Cardiff owned him, Cardiff didn't put him on their insurance but tried to insure him after he'd died. Cardiff have lost this case 3 times, all their arguments have been thrown out.
Sheffield Utd's argument was about what DID happen not what MIGHT happen. Cardiff were pre season favourites for relegation, Warnock has never succesfully kept a team in the EPL, he takes them up but if he stays they come back down, 8 times I think. What he supposes would have happened is irrelevant.
PS, Warnock also had strong link to the dodgy agent and signed both his sons who would struggle in the Swansea league, of you're looking for dodgy doings, start there. |
I am pointing out there is a precedence for damages based on a team either staying in the Premier leagues for irregular actions of others or not staying in the premier league because the irregular action of others.
Cardiff failed claims related to the matter of ownership. This matter is separate and I presume Cardiff will now pay Nantes the balance after giving Nantes to chance to come to an out of court arrangement. The matter is now whether Nantes did a proper duty of care in the transaction and did this failure cost CCFC their place in the PL. Two separate matters.
Both Sheff Utd and Cardiff were relegated by two or three points costing them their Premier league status and a lot of money.
It was considered likely that WHU would NOT have got those 3 extra points in the two Argentinians had not been signed.
It was proven that West Ham broke the rules and benefited as SUFC expense and damages were paid based on the fact that SUFC lost income not being in the Premier league.
It might be considered likely that CCFC WOULD got those 3 extra points if another Argentinian striker had played.
It is yet to be proven that Nantes were partly at fault by their actions in the death of the player. If this is proven in court then the question will be asked if it cost CCFC their PL position. It seems to me to be a reasonable argument and there is a precedent.
People have argued that considering any losses incurred by Cardiff from relegation cannot be considered. I have provided a precedent for the lawyers to consider.
Agents must have links to the buying and selling club. It is this relationship which they use to close deal and agree their commissions. The argument of who the agent is working for needs to be examined and has long been a issue. It seems the agent would be paid by Nantes from the money given to them by Cardiff.
Cardiff will argue that the agent was still working for Nantes as the flight was a "perk" and associated with the deal. Nantes will ague it was nothing to do with the deal. | |
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 20:29 - May 10 with 4185 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 05:55 - May 10 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
The difference between the Tevez thing and Sala is there is no “speculation” as to the effect his signing had. He played plenty of games, scored numerous goals including vital winners and was their player of the year.
When asking what would have happened with Sala the answer is anything. He could have scored forty goals and got them to the champions league. He could have pulled a hamstring in his first training session. He could also have been a massive flop. There’s no way of knowing what would have happened. |
Lawyers are smart people. Smarter than you and me. From what I can see the two arguments are inverses but of the same validity.
Would West Ham got 4 less points if Tevez and Mashcernano not played? The most likely answer is they probably would NOT have got those points WITHOUT THEM.
West Ham paid up as they did not believe they would have either a Tevez was outstanding. The speculation is not about Tevez but Tevez' s understudy who like Sala did not play. Get my drift?
In the case of CCFC Cardiff were relegated by 2 points and GD. Would Sala's play garnered an extra three points for the club?. In the balance of probability i put it to you he would have based on he is performances in Ligue 1. Sala was not better than Tevez but better than WHU reserve players. | |
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 07:42 - May 11 with 4066 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
Cardiff's position on this is incoherent at best.
1. We will not pay the transfer fee as he was not our player.
2. He was our player but our insurance brokers did not insure him properly.
3. Nantes were negligent, if the player had played for us we would not have been relegated.
The last position is obviously problematic and differs from the Tevez case which brought after the fact that Tevez did transfer, he did play and he did score goals. |  |
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 07:57 - May 11 with 4054 views | felixstowe_jack |
How were Nantes negligent he was not their player.
The only people negligent were Cardiff City who should have ensured their employee travelled by commercial airline, a legal private charter and should have taken out proper insurance. | |
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 09:30 - May 11 with 4007 views | Dr_Winston |
It seems to be established at this point that Sala was 100% a Cardiff player and wasn't insured as such. It was not Nantes' responsibility to make sure that he was insured, and that he made it safely to Cardiff. Their part in it was done.
Cardiff had every right and responsibility to insist that he made his way back via correct modes of transport. They didn't. Now they're trying to blame anyone and everyone else for that and are getting laughed out of every court they go to over it.
Bottom line is that I don't think Vinny T is all that bright. Made most of his money from being mates with the Thai finance minister. Certainly arrogant and thin skinned, but not the sharpest tool in the box. Cardiff's legal team must be booking skiing holidays in St. Moritz with all the money they're making out of these pointless cases. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 11:11 - May 11 with 3962 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 07:57 - May 11 by felixstowe_jack |
How were Nantes negligent he was not their player.
The only people negligent were Cardiff City who should have ensured their employee travelled by commercial airline, a legal private charter and should have taken out proper insurance. |
The agent for Nantes arranged flights for the player from Nantes to Carfiff both when he was their player and after they had sold the player. It could be argued all the flights involved in the sale process were not done with adequate care and attention and this was not know by CCFC. | |
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 11:49 - May 11 with 3944 views | whiterock |
Thankfully this sort of thing doesn't happen often and should be covered by insurance, I remember Cardiff trying desperately to fill in the insurance form a day or two after the crash. | | | |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 11:54 - May 11 with 3943 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 20:29 - May 10 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Lawyers are smart people. Smarter than you and me. From what I can see the two arguments are inverses but of the same validity.
Would West Ham got 4 less points if Tevez and Mashcernano not played? The most likely answer is they probably would NOT have got those points WITHOUT THEM.
West Ham paid up as they did not believe they would have either a Tevez was outstanding. The speculation is not about Tevez but Tevez' s understudy who like Sala did not play. Get my drift?
In the case of CCFC Cardiff were relegated by 2 points and GD. Would Sala's play garnered an extra three points for the club?. In the balance of probability i put it to you he would have based on he is performances in Ligue 1. Sala was not better than Tevez but better than WHU reserve players. |
Inverses isn't a word, choose a real word.
We cannot possibly know what results WHUFC would have gotten without those two players.
West ham paid up but the Blades claim was based around their belief that the FA should have deducted points from WHUFC
Speculation is just that, it is not a fact, I have speculated that if our owners had brought in 2-3 players in January we'd be in the play offs but I cannot know that as a fact, get my drift?
Sala's performnace in Ligue 1 are hardly a great barometer, that league is nowhere near as strong as the EPL, there is ONE team that wins most things in France and how do they do in the Champions league? PSG have won their league all but once since 2012/13 but when did a French team last win the ECL...1992/93, Marseille.
That's before you think about other possibilities such as the settling in period, the chance of injury, illness or suspension and whether or not Sala would actually have worked out in that CCFC team.
It doesn't matter whether Sala was better or worse than Tevez or WHU reserves, it's completely irrelevant given the different teams with different players involved too, that is an absolutely barmy bit of reasoning.
You can use CAPITALS all you like but it makes no difference, we cannot predict the future and neither can we predict what would subsequently have happened if we went back and changed the past. | | | |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 12:43 - May 11 with 3904 views | Superjan |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 20:15 - May 10 by ReslovenSwan1 |
I am pointing out there is a precedence for damages based on a team either staying in the Premier leagues for irregular actions of others or not staying in the premier league because the irregular action of others.
Cardiff failed claims related to the matter of ownership. This matter is separate and I presume Cardiff will now pay Nantes the balance after giving Nantes to chance to come to an out of court arrangement. The matter is now whether Nantes did a proper duty of care in the transaction and did this failure cost CCFC their place in the PL. Two separate matters.
Both Sheff Utd and Cardiff were relegated by two or three points costing them their Premier league status and a lot of money.
It was considered likely that WHU would NOT have got those 3 extra points in the two Argentinians had not been signed.
It was proven that West Ham broke the rules and benefited as SUFC expense and damages were paid based on the fact that SUFC lost income not being in the Premier league.
It might be considered likely that CCFC WOULD got those 3 extra points if another Argentinian striker had played.
It is yet to be proven that Nantes were partly at fault by their actions in the death of the player. If this is proven in court then the question will be asked if it cost CCFC their PL position. It seems to me to be a reasonable argument and there is a precedent.
People have argued that considering any losses incurred by Cardiff from relegation cannot be considered. I have provided a precedent for the lawyers to consider.
Agents must have links to the buying and selling club. It is this relationship which they use to close deal and agree their commissions. The argument of who the agent is working for needs to be examined and has long been a issue. It seems the agent would be paid by Nantes from the money given to them by Cardiff.
Cardiff will argue that the agent was still working for Nantes as the flight was a "perk" and associated with the deal. Nantes will ague it was nothing to do with the deal. |
I really don’t know how you are not a lawyer ! I just hope that you have provided your views to the representatives of both Cardiff and Nantes for their careful consideration. | | | |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 14:39 - May 11 with 3831 views | Whiterockin |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 12:43 - May 11 by Superjan |
I really don’t know how you are not a lawyer ! I just hope that you have provided your views to the representatives of both Cardiff and Nantes for their careful consideration. |
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 15:05 - May 11 with 3812 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 11:11 - May 11 by ReslovenSwan1 |
The agent for Nantes arranged flights for the player from Nantes to Carfiff both when he was their player and after they had sold the player. It could be argued all the flights involved in the sale process were not done with adequate care and attention and this was not know by CCFC. |
You do know that Willie Mackay has stated that Sala had to arrange his own travel asfter Cardiff city abandoned him to it?
That fits in with Cardiff's other negligence in not putting him on their insurance. Dalman is proving to be a real Albatross around CCFC's neck.
Now as you have clearly said "after they had sold the player" the flight was again arranged by this agent, at this point it has nothing to do with Nantes, the deal is done, the agent no longer represents Nantes so in turn Nantes have no longer got a duty of care for Sala. Besides which, if Sala didn't think the plane safe he should have refused to get on board.
The return flight was not included in the sale process, it was Sala returning for nates to get his stuff, again nothing to do with Nantes nd Cardiff were aware he was going bak to Nantes.
The team guilty of not filling their duty of care is Cardiff and they are paying a price now, Sala paid the ultimate price for Cardiff's laziness. | | | |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 15:26 - May 11 with 3792 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 07:57 - May 11 by felixstowe_jack |
How were Nantes negligent he was not their player.
The only people negligent were Cardiff City who should have ensured their employee travelled by commercial airline, a legal private charter and should have taken out proper insurance. |
Yes. The person responsible for the accident has been convicted and jailed. He is the only party that can be reasonably held liable for his cowboy outfit acting in such a dangerous, reckless and cavalier manner (words of the judge) but the problem for Cardiff is he doesn’t have £200 million. Neither do Nantes by that matter.
Nantes can’t be held responsible for the actions of a rogue individual criminal any more than the Texas Book Depository can be blamed for the shooting of jfk. | |
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 16:02 - May 11 with 3768 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 15:05 - May 11 by SullutaCreturned |
You do know that Willie Mackay has stated that Sala had to arrange his own travel asfter Cardiff city abandoned him to it?
That fits in with Cardiff's other negligence in not putting him on their insurance. Dalman is proving to be a real Albatross around CCFC's neck.
Now as you have clearly said "after they had sold the player" the flight was again arranged by this agent, at this point it has nothing to do with Nantes, the deal is done, the agent no longer represents Nantes so in turn Nantes have no longer got a duty of care for Sala. Besides which, if Sala didn't think the plane safe he should have refused to get on board.
The return flight was not included in the sale process, it was Sala returning for nates to get his stuff, again nothing to do with Nantes nd Cardiff were aware he was going bak to Nantes.
The team guilty of not filling their duty of care is Cardiff and they are paying a price now, Sala paid the ultimate price for Cardiff's laziness. |
You believe the player himself and Cardiff city are 100% responsible for the loss of life and finacial loses. The man jailed has closed the matter. This is a very harsh and simplistic view which I do not agree with.
Nantes and their agent have questions to answer. | |
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 16:52 - May 11 with 3750 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 15:26 - May 11 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Yes. The person responsible for the accident has been convicted and jailed. He is the only party that can be reasonably held liable for his cowboy outfit acting in such a dangerous, reckless and cavalier manner (words of the judge) but the problem for Cardiff is he doesn’t have £200 million. Neither do Nantes by that matter.
Nantes can’t be held responsible for the actions of a rogue individual criminal any more than the Texas Book Depository can be blamed for the shooting of jfk. |
This is because t you not understand the law.
For example if you clear your lovely back garden of broke paving stones in Narbeth and replace it with a lawn you will employ a contractor to do the work and dispose of the tiles.
You can use some bloke you met in the pub or a registered contractor. The registered trader will give you a receipt wit VAT and dispose of the paving slabs within the law. You are in the clear.
If however you go for an unregistered contractor and go down a cash in hand deal things are a little different. If your broken paving stones appear in a lay by in St Clairs you could be held accountable. You notionally did not use "duty of care". [Post edited 11 May 2023 16:54]
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 16:58 - May 11 with 3734 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 12:43 - May 11 by Superjan |
I really don’t know how you are not a lawyer ! I just hope that you have provided your views to the representatives of both Cardiff and Nantes for their careful consideration. |
I am a citizen of UK (first) and want to see justice. Its good for citizens to consider the law. All the people telling us Nantes and the agent are in the clear for this reason and that will get a easy run on here. Parochial considerations always out weigh justice in football.
Lawyers and prosecutors work to a higher standards. | |
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 16:59 - May 11 with 3736 views | bennytheblue |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 07:57 - May 11 by felixstowe_jack |
How were Nantes negligent he was not their player.
The only people negligent were Cardiff City who should have ensured their employee travelled by commercial airline, a legal private charter and should have taken out proper insurance. |
And it was an agent working for Nantes who put him on that plane….. |  | | |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 17:03 - May 11 with 3726 views | bennytheblue |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 11:49 - May 11 by whiterock |
Thankfully this sort of thing doesn't happen often and should be covered by insurance, I remember Cardiff trying desperately to fill in the insurance form a day or two after the crash. |
You would think it insurance is valid just by signing? How does it work on deadline day when signing at 10.59pm in Liverpool? Insurance company stay open late? | | | |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 17:56 - May 11 with 3699 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 17:03 - May 11 by bennytheblue |
You would think it insurance is valid just by signing? How does it work on deadline day when signing at 10.59pm in Liverpool? Insurance company stay open late? |
The insurance business have ways around this. I had full cover and transferable number plates when i gave my new car a test drive in advance of buying it. They also gave me one weeks cover free to cover the period between driving the car away and organising my own insurance.
Cardiff /Nantes could have insured Sala for a week during the talks transfer process and this would have been cheap as it lasted only a day or two. No one would insure these flights of course. The insurers understand risk and recognise "red flags" would probably go no where near this operator and pilot. [Post edited 11 May 2023 17:58]
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| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 18:15 - May 11 with 3678 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 16:52 - May 11 by ReslovenSwan1 |
This is because t you not understand the law.
For example if you clear your lovely back garden of broke paving stones in Narbeth and replace it with a lawn you will employ a contractor to do the work and dispose of the tiles.
You can use some bloke you met in the pub or a registered contractor. The registered trader will give you a receipt wit VAT and dispose of the paving slabs within the law. You are in the clear.
If however you go for an unregistered contractor and go down a cash in hand deal things are a little different. If your broken paving stones appear in a lay by in St Clairs you could be held accountable. You notionally did not use "duty of care". [Post edited 11 May 2023 16:54]
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Sorry but that's a nonsense post that bears no resemblance to what happened with Sala. Nantes sold Sala, it's as simple as that.
If I sell broken paving slabs from my back garden but the buyer later decides he doesn't want them and dumps them, or they tip off the back of his van on the way home, I am not responsible as the slabs no longer belonged to me.
Nantes did not contract Cardiff City to take Sala away, they did not pay MacKay to arraneg the flight, they had no duty of care as Sala was no longer their player.
You say others don't understand the law? Do you understand the difference between contracting someone to do a job and selling something? | | | |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 18:59 - May 11 with 3659 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Cardiff Sala saga continues on 17:03 - May 11 by bennytheblue |
You would think it insurance is valid just by signing? How does it work on deadline day when signing at 10.59pm in Liverpool? Insurance company stay open late? |
Well yes, the internet is open 24/7 and you can do all sorts of things online these days. | | | |
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