| Welsh independance 11:59 - Nov 12 with 3641 views | mangohilljack |
This movement seems to be growing back in Blighty, don't want to start a war into the should we shouldn't we debate. Not living in Wales or the UK for that matter I'd be interested to hear what the benefits are to those living in Wales?
Currently it is not something I would support as I'm a proud Brit and a proud welshman. But that doesn't mean I'm not open to change. My biggest concern is where would that leave the Swans, would we still be able to play in the current format or would we have to revert back to league of Wales, if the latter then that alone would convince me not to support it.
What is everybody else's thoughts? |  | | |  |
| Welsh independance on 11:23 - Nov 13 with 830 views | onehunglow |
| Welsh independance on 11:20 - Nov 13 by felixstowe_jack |
Don't forget the specialist centres on Manchester, Chester, Birmingham, Bristol, London and Cambridge who all treat patients from Wales. |
Chester covered by Clatterbridge ,Wirral,Merseyside ( just)
You make a good point.
Many would die ,as Ivecsaid before,if Wales went Indy,purely to sate the puerile narrow minded xenophobic minority | |
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| Welsh independance on 12:50 - Nov 13 with 786 views | johnlangy |
First of all many thanks for the positive words Gwyn. As it happens I had been planning on creating another Welsh Indy thread.
With regard to what you say about other pro Indy posters doing the anti English thing, I don’t understand that either. If you want to persuade people of the validity of your argument you don’t start by alienating them. A very large number of Welsh people have English family members or English ancestry, including me, which is why I regularly say that i‘m criticising Westminster Governments not English people.
Current opinion polls put the yes for Indy numbers between 20% and 30% so for the sake of the discussion I’ll take the middle ground of 25%. That means 75% said no to Indy. But asking that one question is pointless without some context. There has to be at least one other follow on question, that question being why do you say no to Indy. There will be a variety of answers but the one that comes up probably as much as all the others put together is the question of finance, ie can Wales afford Independence.
So if we took it that half the ‘no’ people said it was because of finance then it’s reasonable to say that if they could be shown that Wales really could afford to be Independent then they may very well change to yes.
A while ago I posted that a Professor John Doyle had been commissioned to produce a report on the feasibility of Welsh Independence. He looked at the Office of National Statistics (ONS) figures and said ‘the way in which the fiscal gap for Wales is calculated by the UK’s Office for National Statistics is sufficiently clear for a political analysis to determine which aspects of this subvention will be relevant for an Independent Wales’. An example. The UK spends 2.5% of its GDP on defence and the ONS allocates a spend of £1.9 billion to Wales. The EU average spend on defence is 1.3%. If an Independent Wales decided to spend 1.3% of its GDP on defence that would be a saving of £922 million.
To save us the problem of getting hold of a copy of the report and ploughing through maybe a hundred pages of stuff a bloke named David H Smith has created a youtube video explaining the figures. Do a search on ‘What is Cymru’s Deficit’ and have a look. Professor Doyle’s analysis brings the deficit down from £13.4 billion to £2.6 billion.
One of the other arguments many posters have brought up on this thread and many others is that Wales is lucky to be able to make use of English facilities like hospitals, something that people in an Independent Wales would not be able to do. Wingstandwood mentioned a bunch of hospitals so I did a quick search on Clatterbridge Hospital. The first three phases of the hospital were built between 1958 and 1990, the cancer centre being opened in 2020. I didn’t do the same for the other hospitals because I’m just making the point that this one, probably all the others as well, were built for the UK NHS, as Wsw mentions, by UK money which includes Welsh money. He also mentions ‘Westminster funded RAF aviation’. Westminster funded means UK funded which includes Welsh funding (£1.9 billion per year on defence spending ?).
In a similar vein, there’s a huge debate going on at the moment about HS2 and the fact that £5.5 billion has been allocated as the Welsh contribution to the project. Because it’s being built entirely in England does that mean that it will be entirely owned by England ? Does our £5.5 billion count for nothing ? | | | |
| Welsh independance on 13:22 - Nov 13 with 772 views | onehunglow |
| Welsh independance on 12:50 - Nov 13 by johnlangy |
First of all many thanks for the positive words Gwyn. As it happens I had been planning on creating another Welsh Indy thread.
With regard to what you say about other pro Indy posters doing the anti English thing, I don’t understand that either. If you want to persuade people of the validity of your argument you don’t start by alienating them. A very large number of Welsh people have English family members or English ancestry, including me, which is why I regularly say that i‘m criticising Westminster Governments not English people.
Current opinion polls put the yes for Indy numbers between 20% and 30% so for the sake of the discussion I’ll take the middle ground of 25%. That means 75% said no to Indy. But asking that one question is pointless without some context. There has to be at least one other follow on question, that question being why do you say no to Indy. There will be a variety of answers but the one that comes up probably as much as all the others put together is the question of finance, ie can Wales afford Independence.
So if we took it that half the ‘no’ people said it was because of finance then it’s reasonable to say that if they could be shown that Wales really could afford to be Independent then they may very well change to yes.
A while ago I posted that a Professor John Doyle had been commissioned to produce a report on the feasibility of Welsh Independence. He looked at the Office of National Statistics (ONS) figures and said ‘the way in which the fiscal gap for Wales is calculated by the UK’s Office for National Statistics is sufficiently clear for a political analysis to determine which aspects of this subvention will be relevant for an Independent Wales’. An example. The UK spends 2.5% of its GDP on defence and the ONS allocates a spend of £1.9 billion to Wales. The EU average spend on defence is 1.3%. If an Independent Wales decided to spend 1.3% of its GDP on defence that would be a saving of £922 million.
To save us the problem of getting hold of a copy of the report and ploughing through maybe a hundred pages of stuff a bloke named David H Smith has created a youtube video explaining the figures. Do a search on ‘What is Cymru’s Deficit’ and have a look. Professor Doyle’s analysis brings the deficit down from £13.4 billion to £2.6 billion.
One of the other arguments many posters have brought up on this thread and many others is that Wales is lucky to be able to make use of English facilities like hospitals, something that people in an Independent Wales would not be able to do. Wingstandwood mentioned a bunch of hospitals so I did a quick search on Clatterbridge Hospital. The first three phases of the hospital were built between 1958 and 1990, the cancer centre being opened in 2020. I didn’t do the same for the other hospitals because I’m just making the point that this one, probably all the others as well, were built for the UK NHS, as Wsw mentions, by UK money which includes Welsh money. He also mentions ‘Westminster funded RAF aviation’. Westminster funded means UK funded which includes Welsh funding (£1.9 billion per year on defence spending ?).
In a similar vein, there’s a huge debate going on at the moment about HS2 and the fact that £5.5 billion has been allocated as the Welsh contribution to the project. Because it’s being built entirely in England does that mean that it will be entirely owned by England ? Does our £5.5 billion count for nothing ? |
Clatterbriidge has been treating cancer patients long before 2020.
The hospital administration and structure changed
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| Welsh independance on 14:06 - Nov 13 with 744 views | Wingstandwood |
| Welsh independance on 12:50 - Nov 13 by johnlangy |
First of all many thanks for the positive words Gwyn. As it happens I had been planning on creating another Welsh Indy thread.
With regard to what you say about other pro Indy posters doing the anti English thing, I don’t understand that either. If you want to persuade people of the validity of your argument you don’t start by alienating them. A very large number of Welsh people have English family members or English ancestry, including me, which is why I regularly say that i‘m criticising Westminster Governments not English people.
Current opinion polls put the yes for Indy numbers between 20% and 30% so for the sake of the discussion I’ll take the middle ground of 25%. That means 75% said no to Indy. But asking that one question is pointless without some context. There has to be at least one other follow on question, that question being why do you say no to Indy. There will be a variety of answers but the one that comes up probably as much as all the others put together is the question of finance, ie can Wales afford Independence.
So if we took it that half the ‘no’ people said it was because of finance then it’s reasonable to say that if they could be shown that Wales really could afford to be Independent then they may very well change to yes.
A while ago I posted that a Professor John Doyle had been commissioned to produce a report on the feasibility of Welsh Independence. He looked at the Office of National Statistics (ONS) figures and said ‘the way in which the fiscal gap for Wales is calculated by the UK’s Office for National Statistics is sufficiently clear for a political analysis to determine which aspects of this subvention will be relevant for an Independent Wales’. An example. The UK spends 2.5% of its GDP on defence and the ONS allocates a spend of £1.9 billion to Wales. The EU average spend on defence is 1.3%. If an Independent Wales decided to spend 1.3% of its GDP on defence that would be a saving of £922 million.
To save us the problem of getting hold of a copy of the report and ploughing through maybe a hundred pages of stuff a bloke named David H Smith has created a youtube video explaining the figures. Do a search on ‘What is Cymru’s Deficit’ and have a look. Professor Doyle’s analysis brings the deficit down from £13.4 billion to £2.6 billion.
One of the other arguments many posters have brought up on this thread and many others is that Wales is lucky to be able to make use of English facilities like hospitals, something that people in an Independent Wales would not be able to do. Wingstandwood mentioned a bunch of hospitals so I did a quick search on Clatterbridge Hospital. The first three phases of the hospital were built between 1958 and 1990, the cancer centre being opened in 2020. I didn’t do the same for the other hospitals because I’m just making the point that this one, probably all the others as well, were built for the UK NHS, as Wsw mentions, by UK money which includes Welsh money. He also mentions ‘Westminster funded RAF aviation’. Westminster funded means UK funded which includes Welsh funding (£1.9 billion per year on defence spending ?).
In a similar vein, there’s a huge debate going on at the moment about HS2 and the fact that £5.5 billion has been allocated as the Welsh contribution to the project. Because it’s being built entirely in England does that mean that it will be entirely owned by England ? Does our £5.5 billion count for nothing ? |
https://www.northwalescancerforum.co.uk/generous-donations-fund-new-radiotherapy
The facts that North Walians have had to fundraise to buy desperately required radiotherapy equipment, and the fact that a leading SW Wales cancer clinician had to protest-resign to get desperately required equipment for his SW Wales Singleton patients says all I want to know about Cardiff devolved government, thank you very much!
And that is only with devolution-lite! Stuff full independance where the sun doesn't shine!
And if there was full independance it would be far worse with exactly the same people in charge, continuing to partition Wales Thatcher-esque North-South England style along with their lackadaisical attitude(s) for anyone or anything outside of Cardiff. Hence why SW Walians and North Walians can die as far as they are concerned!
And btw I come with 'inside-information' and I know exactly what some former Singleton Hospital 'professionals' truly think of THAT obscenity and its yokels in Cardiff Bay! In fact Cardiff Bay politicians were refused invitation to one Singleton Hospital opening event, that sort of shows the contempt for Cardiff-centric devolution!
Like what another poster on here previously stated i.e. devolution has been "civic suicide"!!!! |  |
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| Welsh independance on 14:11 - Nov 13 with 734 views | onehunglow |
| Welsh independance on 14:06 - Nov 13 by Wingstandwood |
https://www.northwalescancerforum.co.uk/generous-donations-fund-new-radiotherapy
The facts that North Walians have had to fundraise to buy desperately required radiotherapy equipment, and the fact that a leading SW Wales cancer clinician had to protest-resign to get desperately required equipment for his SW Wales Singleton patients says all I want to know about Cardiff devolved government, thank you very much!
And that is only with devolution-lite! Stuff full independance where the sun doesn't shine!
And if there was full independance it would be far worse with exactly the same people in charge, continuing to partition Wales Thatcher-esque North-South England style along with their lackadaisical attitude(s) for anyone or anything outside of Cardiff. Hence why SW Walians and North Walians can die as far as they are concerned!
And btw I come with 'inside-information' and I know exactly what some former Singleton Hospital 'professionals' truly think of THAT obscenity and its yokels in Cardiff Bay! In fact Cardiff Bay politicians were refused invitation to one Singleton Hospital opening event, that sort of shows the contempt for Cardiff-centric devolution!
Like what another poster on here previously stated i.e. devolution has been "civic suicide"!!!! |
I could append content that was said to my missus from fellow patients from Gwynedd .
They know they are alive because of NHS England | |
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| Welsh independance on 14:53 - Nov 13 with 715 views | BryanSwan |
| Welsh independance on 11:23 - Nov 13 by onehunglow |
Chester covered by Clatterbridge ,Wirral,Merseyside ( just)
You make a good point.
Many would die ,as Ivecsaid before,if Wales went Indy,purely to sate the puerile narrow minded xenophobic minority |
If you want to make an argument that people will take seriously it is probably best to leave out the unnecessary insults. | |
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| Welsh independance on 15:23 - Nov 13 with 698 views | onehunglow |
| Welsh independance on 14:53 - Nov 13 by BryanSwan |
If you want to make an argument that people will take seriously it is probably best to leave out the unnecessary insults. |
If yiu cannot accept strong words then ignore
No individual is targeted .
Get that ?
Talking seriously ? Just incredible . By whom exactly . Faceless ,gutless posters who try to drive away those they don’t like
Now, if you like DM me and quit the didactic drivel | |
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| Welsh independance on 15:52 - Nov 13 with 686 views | lifelong |
| Welsh independance on 14:53 - Nov 13 by BryanSwan |
If you want to make an argument that people will take seriously it is probably best to leave out the unnecessary insults. |
You’ve got no chance on that count.
The bloke has been insulting Swansea and Wales for decades. |  | | |
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| Welsh independance on 16:00 - Nov 13 with 683 views | BryanSwan |
| Welsh independance on 15:23 - Nov 13 by onehunglow |
If yiu cannot accept strong words then ignore
No individual is targeted .
Get that ?
Talking seriously ? Just incredible . By whom exactly . Faceless ,gutless posters who try to drive away those they don’t like
Now, if you like DM me and quit the didactic drivel |
No, I just think labelling people with different views from yourself "puerile, narrow minded and xenophobic" is not appropriate for sensible debate.
I'm sure that you would not appreciate being labelled as things of that nature. | |
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| Welsh independance on 19:37 - Nov 13 with 631 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Welsh independance on 15:06 - Nov 12 by Wingstandwood |
The people who seem to want independence are the same types who have a form of misguided patriotism that detaches themselves from all reality. That's all they have got to do is look at the record of Welsh government since its been in existence.
Stirring anti-English songs of defiance and romantic imagery involving castles, green-fields, Eisteddfod bards and coracles means absolutely s*d all, it does not improve Welsh economy, infrastructure or services.
Welsh language professor types from places like Machynlleth love the idea of full independence though...Forever resentful because English soldiers invaded Wales many hundreds of years back armed with bows and arrows and swords.
The threat to Wales is no longer from English bows and arrows and swords its from cr@p Welsh politicians happy to turn the country into an economic and public service disgrace |
You just described Johnson. 🤡🇬🇧 |  |
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| Welsh independance on 19:41 - Nov 13 with 630 views | Dr_Winston |
The Indy types make a lot of noise but when it comes down to it there's not a lot of them. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Welsh independance on 19:41 - Nov 13 with 630 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Welsh independance on 18:53 - Nov 12 by Boundy |
But our taxes are spent in Wales by a rather inept bunch of 2nd rate politicians |
This is where your taxes have been wasted butt …
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| Welsh independance on 19:43 - Nov 13 with 629 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Welsh independance on 21:08 - Nov 12 by Wingstandwood |
How lucky, blessed, fortunate (or preferred other label etc) that the NHS is ONE interconnected organisation under one umbrella that treats patients no matter what U.K border, county or health board.
To have it broken up, separated and sabotaged by 'nationalist/separatist' isolationist lunacy would be an absolute disaster.
The Welsh Government has proven itself to be utterly incompetent and incapable because if it cannot even build a desperately required roadway here or there? Perish the though if the yokels were handed the task of restructuring the entire Welsh NHS after full devolution and separation from the U.K family to which it once belonged . |
Like Brexit you mean ….? | |
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| Welsh independance on 19:44 - Nov 13 with 629 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Welsh independance on 20:36 - Nov 12 by onehunglow |
Merseyside has
Heat
Brain
Cancer
Specialist centres
They treat people from Wales and the likes of IOM.
They re very grateful
People would die in their thousands with welsh independence . It’s sentimental drivel and potentially lethal |
Imagine if Cymru had had such investments .. | |
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| Welsh independance on 19:46 - Nov 13 with 626 views | Dr_Winston |
| Welsh independance on 19:44 - Nov 13 by Kilkennyjack |
Imagine if Cymru had had such investments .. |
They'd all go in Cardiff and the rest of the country could f*ck off.
Like usual. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Welsh independance on 19:46 - Nov 13 with 625 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Welsh independance on 23:36 - Nov 12 by Catullus |
I can agree with that, look at Brexit for the example. Cameron and Osborne tried to scare us into voting remain and what happened? trying to scare people into voting leave may only have the same effect, try to give people good reasons for leaving and stop harping on about why its bad to remain. |
Brexit has caused twice as much damage to the uk economy as Covid.
The reversal of Brexit is inevitable at some point. Nailed on. [Post edited 13 Nov 2022 19:47]
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| Welsh independance on 19:48 - Nov 13 with 623 views | onehunglow |
| Welsh independance on 19:44 - Nov 13 by Kilkennyjack |
Imagine if Cymru had had such investments .. |
North cymru or south
The north would break away from a Cardiff capital of Indy Wales and would want Caernarfon as capital
Totally different in Caernarfon to Chepstow , both in Wales | |
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| Welsh independance on 19:49 - Nov 13 with 622 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Welsh independance on 19:46 - Nov 13 by Dr_Winston |
They'd all go in Cardiff and the rest of the country could f*ck off.
Like usual. |
We will never know because UK govt gives Cymru no priority at all. | |
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| Welsh independance on 19:50 - Nov 13 with 622 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Welsh independance on 11:20 - Nov 13 by felixstowe_jack |
Don't forget the specialist centres on Manchester, Chester, Birmingham, Bristol, London and Cambridge who all treat patients from Wales. |
Be great for Cymru to get such investments, of course. | |
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| Welsh independance on 19:52 - Nov 13 with 620 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Welsh independance on 19:41 - Nov 13 by Dr_Winston |
The Indy types make a lot of noise but when it comes down to it there's not a lot of them. |
1 in 3 welsh people.
Be far more after a free Scotland and a united Ireland.
Wont take long. | |
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| Welsh independance on 19:53 - Nov 13 with 617 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Welsh independance on 19:48 - Nov 13 by onehunglow |
North cymru or south
The north would break away from a Cardiff capital of Indy Wales and would want Caernarfon as capital
Totally different in Caernarfon to Chepstow , both in Wales |
Both because we would save so much money from not needing an army to finance anymore.
[Post edited 13 Nov 2022 19:56]
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| Welsh independance on 19:55 - Nov 13 with 614 views | Dr_Winston |
| Welsh independance on 19:49 - Nov 13 by Kilkennyjack |
We will never know because UK govt gives Cymru no priority at all. |
The Welsh Govt gives Cardiff every priority.
We know well enough. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Welsh independance on 19:57 - Nov 13 with 610 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Welsh independance on 19:55 - Nov 13 by Dr_Winston |
The Welsh Govt gives Cardiff every priority.
We know well enough. |
The uk govt will never give them the money, we know well enough.
They like putting things in London. [Post edited 13 Nov 2022 19:59]
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| Welsh independance on 20:02 - Nov 13 with 605 views | Dr_Winston |
| Welsh independance on 19:57 - Nov 13 by Kilkennyjack |
The uk govt will never give them the money, we know well enough.
They like putting things in London. [Post edited 13 Nov 2022 19:59]
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Look, I know you're not as stupid as Trampie. For one thing you're much better than he is at keeping the bigotry covered up. For that reason alone I suspect that you're well aware that you're spouting sh*t, but are simply too far in to admit it.
Anyone who doesn't live in Cardiff and supports Welsh Independence should be mocked, shunned and possibly driven out of their communities. Like they used to do to Witches. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Welsh independance on 20:52 - Nov 13 with 578 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Welsh independance on 20:02 - Nov 13 by Dr_Winston |
Look, I know you're not as stupid as Trampie. For one thing you're much better than he is at keeping the bigotry covered up. For that reason alone I suspect that you're well aware that you're spouting sh*t, but are simply too far in to admit it.
Anyone who doesn't live in Cardiff and supports Welsh Independence should be mocked, shunned and possibly driven out of their communities. Like they used to do to Witches. |
Try voting for change in Senedd elections.
I mean thats the whole point.
I support an all Cymru approach.
I am not batting for Cardiff, but i am batting for the people who live, work, and love in Cymru to decide whats happens in Cymru.
Currently Cymru votes Welsh Labour but at uk level its Englands Conservative and Unionist party that calls the shots.
Thats no good.
Give me Rob Page over Jacob Rees Mogg every day of the week. | |
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