| Burkini 08:16 - Aug 25 with 9190 views | exiled_dictator |
acceptable in 2016 uk or not?
you wouldn't catch me in one, because i would also wear a pashtun burka, so you would definitely not catch me at all. wouldn't see me in the dark either. like a ninja.
joking aside, i know that in france, particularly in the south, the authorities are trying to outlaw them, because they are 'not respectful of good morals and secularism'. whatever that means.
but surely, its about choice; women who choose to go to the beach and enjoy their time there, but wish to do so within their own personal choices. just as long as they are not forced to hide away, I'm not sure that it should be a problem.
and without wishing to spark a lfw meltdown, aren't the french police interfering with their human rights?
would it bother you to see women in burkinis at the beach or the local swimming pool?
storm in a tea cup? dunno. |  |
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| Burkini on 08:31 - Aug 25 with 4296 views | MedwayR |
I think the French have got this wrong, trying to fight extremism with extremism isn't going to work, in fact quite the opposite, it's more likely to leave French Muslims isolated & vulnerable to having their heads turned towards extremism & terrorism.
I don't actually see what's so offensive about burkinis, in fact I find it odd that a burkini is a problem for the French but if I went for a dip wearing a mankini that would be fine, I know which I'd find more offensive!!
Surely the French police's time would be better spent fighting terrorism rather than picking on Muslim women peacefully enjoying some time at the beach. Incidentally the 'laws' are very loose and open to interpretation, the vast majority of the fines have been issued not for wearing burkinis but for wearing clothes and a headscarf. In which case the old dears at the bus stop need to be careful. |  |
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| Burkini on 09:24 - Aug 25 with 4214 views | Toast_R |
This is an absolute disgrace trying to enforce something so pathetic.
Covering up on the beach, how dare they!
You always become the thing you hate and I don't see how this is any less draconian then Iran making women in Tehran wear a head scarf when out and about. |  | | |
| Burkini on 09:29 - Aug 25 with 4197 views | 1MoreBrightonR |
The french approach is embarrassing....their reasoning is just ridiculous. Whatever you feel about Muslims, banning women from wearing a particular type is swimsuit is an pointless and racist way of dealing with it and police singling out people for their dress in public is horrribly similar to Nazi Germany. |  | | |
| Burkini on 09:36 - Aug 25 with 4176 views | DaBurgh |
Absolutely concur 1000% with the OP and all the replies so far... The French have taken a leaf out of the American way of doing things - Using enormously large hammer to crack walnut... |  | | |
| Burkini on 09:44 - Aug 25 with 4158 views | hoof_hearted |
I can only think of one reason why seeing someone wearing a burkini would not be tolerated. Racism. In the face of some nasty attacks but it's still racism.
I actually dislike the full face, letter-box burka but I would stand up for the right of someone to wear one (in peace). The French should adopt a motto, say something like "Liberté, égalité, fraternité". What's that you say? They have? Oh. |  | | |
| Burkini on 09:46 - Aug 25 with 4153 views | traininvain |
This is exactly what ISIS want. They will be rubbing their hands together at the photos of women being asked to remove Burkas on beaches in France. |  | | |
| Burkini on 09:50 - Aug 25 with 4143 views | Brightonhoop |
Whilst there is something grotesque in seeing armed police make a woman remove her clothing, she knew it was outlawed and took the risk of being challenged. I'll probably get slated for this, but who the fck wants to see that on the beach, ffs?
The problem has been a failure of integration by that Religion across Europe and now the perceived threat from hardliners. In the context of the attacks France has seen they have every right to stand up for their own culture which is under attack, but it is disturbing also to see police forcing a woman to undress in a public place.
Is it more or less oppressive than a culture that enslaves and oppresses women by making them wear the Burka? I dont know but we tolerate it for some reason when in every other walk of life oppression of women is totally unacceptable. |  | | |
| Burkini on 09:53 - Aug 25 with 4133 views | MrSheen |
I'm still getting over my outrage and horror at being ordered to wear Speedos in a French pool 20 years ago. So is everyone who saw me in them. |  | | |
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| Burkini on 10:28 - Aug 25 with 4061 views | essextaxiboy |
| Burkini on 09:46 - Aug 25 by traininvain |
This is exactly what ISIS want. They will be rubbing their hands together at the photos of women being asked to remove Burkas on beaches in France. |
There is an opinion that the whole thing was set up and photographed for propaganda .
She had no bag , no towel , nothing to suggest a day on the beach . A photographer in position and the police called very promptly .
Gold dust for ISIS .
Its a bad law , but it is a law implemented by a democratic government as is their right.
Try going topless or even wear a bikini at a resort in Saudi or Iran . |  | | |
| Burkini on 10:31 - Aug 25 with 4054 views | essextaxiboy |
| Burkini on 09:29 - Aug 25 by 1MoreBrightonR |
The french approach is embarrassing....their reasoning is just ridiculous. Whatever you feel about Muslims, banning women from wearing a particular type is swimsuit is an pointless and racist way of dealing with it and police singling out people for their dress in public is horrribly similar to Nazi Germany. |
Islam is a religion , not a race .
All religious attire is banned not just Islam .
Its a bad law , but it is their law . | | | |
| Burkini on 10:32 - Aug 25 with 4045 views | PinnerPaul |
| Burkini on 09:50 - Aug 25 by Brightonhoop |
Whilst there is something grotesque in seeing armed police make a woman remove her clothing, she knew it was outlawed and took the risk of being challenged. I'll probably get slated for this, but who the fck wants to see that on the beach, ffs?
The problem has been a failure of integration by that Religion across Europe and now the perceived threat from hardliners. In the context of the attacks France has seen they have every right to stand up for their own culture which is under attack, but it is disturbing also to see police forcing a woman to undress in a public place.
Is it more or less oppressive than a culture that enslaves and oppresses women by making them wear the Burka? I dont know but we tolerate it for some reason when in every other walk of life oppression of women is totally unacceptable. |
The woman on the beach was not wearing a full face burkha, she had long trousers on , a scarf and a long sleeved top and yet she is removed from the beach by 4 armed all male officers.
Not acceptable in any way shape or form.
"She knew the rules" that is pathetic, so if we banned certain races from UK beaches and they went on in protest, you would take the authorities side, because "they knew the rules"??????
Dangerous, dangerous route to go down. | | | |
| Burkini on 10:33 - Aug 25 with 4038 views | BrianMcCarthy |
I was only thinking yesterday about this and I still can't get my head around it.
The French think that they're fighting oppression of women by outlawing the burka who may have been forced to wear it but the upholding of the law is in itself oppressive.
My thoughts at the moment are - like others on here - that it's anti-libertarian and discriminatory towards Muslim women. And also incredibly unwise. |  |
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| Burkini on 10:34 - Aug 25 with 4032 views | essextaxiboy |
| Burkini on 10:32 - Aug 25 by PinnerPaul |
The woman on the beach was not wearing a full face burkha, she had long trousers on , a scarf and a long sleeved top and yet she is removed from the beach by 4 armed all male officers.
Not acceptable in any way shape or form.
"She knew the rules" that is pathetic, so if we banned certain races from UK beaches and they went on in protest, you would take the authorities side, because "they knew the rules"??????
Dangerous, dangerous route to go down. |
The rule concerns religion not race . | | | |
| Burkini on 10:35 - Aug 25 with 4019 views | johncharles |
Religious freedom and tolerance means that no religion gets preference in law. Not even Christians. France is a secular state I.e. no religion. |  |
| Strong and stable my arse. |
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| Burkini on 10:45 - Aug 25 with 3987 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Burkini on 10:31 - Aug 25 by essextaxiboy |
Islam is a religion , not a race .
All religious attire is banned not just Islam .
Its a bad law , but it is their law . |
Essex, I'm asking this because I genuinely don't know the answer not to pick a fight but do you know (or does anyone know) if catholic nuns and priests are allowed wear their garb in France? | |
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| Burkini on 10:48 - Aug 25 with 3980 views | essextaxiboy |
| Burkini on 09:24 - Aug 25 by Toast_R |
This is an absolute disgrace trying to enforce something so pathetic.
Covering up on the beach, how dare they!
You always become the thing you hate and I don't see how this is any less draconian then Iran making women in Tehran wear a head scarf when out and about. |
A women gets 40 lashes in Iran for wearing a mini skirt .
Not really a 1-1 draw IMO | | | |
| Burkini on 10:51 - Aug 25 with 3965 views | PlanetHonneywood |
Its about picking your battles sometimes and this is a ridiculous battle to pick!
I doubt anyone on the beach gave a rat's backside and now its something that has been elevated to one where its another divisive issue but more importantly, one which can be used to highlight less favourable treatment and potentially, radicalise some.
Last year, I got off a TGV in Paris. All black and middle eastern people were being singled out for searches. Now one could argue that while not every Muslim is a suicide bomber, the fact is that currently, most suicide bombers are Muslim and thus, a heightened state of interest 'might' be justified.
However, instead of doing this profiled searching in a professional and considerate manner, it was done with that sadly French attitude their authorities sometimes have. It was in parts, rude and for many French not being so targetted, embarrassing. Fair play, some 'non-Muslim' passengers vented their annoyance and there was an air of tension on the platform.
Now what was achieved? A section of people likely to feel more alienated/targetted and sowing the seeds of radicalisation? Larger number, including those searched, assured no terrorism would ensue?
I'd suggest that such treatment merely plays in to the hands of those who would seek to profit from such tactics and doesn't get anywhere near the real underlying problem with the French policing; they haven't got any intelligence systems to match what we have and they are hopelessly behind the curve in their tactics if they think random Gestapo like searches will solve the problems.
Ill thought out move by Les Plod on this one. |  |
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| Burkini on 10:53 - Aug 25 with 3962 views | essextaxiboy |
| Burkini on 10:45 - Aug 25 by BrianMcCarthy |
Essex, I'm asking this because I genuinely don't know the answer not to pick a fight but do you know (or does anyone know) if catholic nuns and priests are allowed wear their garb in France? |
I dont know if they are ( and they may be ) then that is discriminatory .
Depends if they are seen a religious symbols or attire.
Def banned in schools I think ..
[Post edited 25 Aug 2016 11:00]
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| Burkini on 10:57 - Aug 25 with 3946 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Burkini on 10:53 - Aug 25 by essextaxiboy |
I dont know if they are ( and they may be ) then that is discriminatory .
Depends if they are seen a religious symbols or attire.
Def banned in schools I think ..
[Post edited 25 Aug 2016 11:00]
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Ya, I tend to agree.
I have no faith so a secular state sounds ideal to me, but a state can be secular without discriminating against those who wish to wear their own religious clothes like priest collars, nuns habits and burqas.
I must find out more. | |
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| Burkini on 10:57 - Aug 25 with 3944 views | francisbowles |
| Burkini on 09:50 - Aug 25 by Brightonhoop |
Whilst there is something grotesque in seeing armed police make a woman remove her clothing, she knew it was outlawed and took the risk of being challenged. I'll probably get slated for this, but who the fck wants to see that on the beach, ffs?
The problem has been a failure of integration by that Religion across Europe and now the perceived threat from hardliners. In the context of the attacks France has seen they have every right to stand up for their own culture which is under attack, but it is disturbing also to see police forcing a woman to undress in a public place.
Is it more or less oppressive than a culture that enslaves and oppresses women by making them wear the Burka? I dont know but we tolerate it for some reason when in every other walk of life oppression of women is totally unacceptable. |
With regards to standing up for their own culture, 'you can't put the genie back in the bottle', 'closing the stable door after the horse has bolted', 'you can't turn the clock back' are phrases that come to mind.
If they wanted to be a monoculture nation, then they needed to make that clear decades ago when they started taking immigrants from their former colonies.
They now have second and probably third generations who were born in France and their values now have to be accomodated.
They can get away with banning the burqa for security reasons and maybe the wearing of religious symbols in public on the grounds that it might be offensive to others but this is stretching it beyond the limit. Everyone has the right to cover up on the beach if they want to. | | | |
| Burkini on 11:00 - Aug 25 with 3932 views | johncharles |
| Burkini on 10:51 - Aug 25 by PlanetHonneywood |
Its about picking your battles sometimes and this is a ridiculous battle to pick!
I doubt anyone on the beach gave a rat's backside and now its something that has been elevated to one where its another divisive issue but more importantly, one which can be used to highlight less favourable treatment and potentially, radicalise some.
Last year, I got off a TGV in Paris. All black and middle eastern people were being singled out for searches. Now one could argue that while not every Muslim is a suicide bomber, the fact is that currently, most suicide bombers are Muslim and thus, a heightened state of interest 'might' be justified.
However, instead of doing this profiled searching in a professional and considerate manner, it was done with that sadly French attitude their authorities sometimes have. It was in parts, rude and for many French not being so targetted, embarrassing. Fair play, some 'non-Muslim' passengers vented their annoyance and there was an air of tension on the platform.
Now what was achieved? A section of people likely to feel more alienated/targetted and sowing the seeds of radicalisation? Larger number, including those searched, assured no terrorism would ensue?
I'd suggest that such treatment merely plays in to the hands of those who would seek to profit from such tactics and doesn't get anywhere near the real underlying problem with the French policing; they haven't got any intelligence systems to match what we have and they are hopelessly behind the curve in their tactics if they think random Gestapo like searches will solve the problems.
Ill thought out move by Les Plod on this one. |
As someone has already pointed out. This was stage managed. The French Police did not pick this fight. They called to the beach where someone was breaking the law. How do you think they should have reacted ? The whole idea was to put the police in a no win situation. | |
| Strong and stable my arse. |
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| Burkini on 11:04 - Aug 25 with 3918 views | Maggsinho |
| Burkini on 11:00 - Aug 25 by johncharles |
As someone has already pointed out. This was stage managed. The French Police did not pick this fight. They called to the beach where someone was breaking the law. How do you think they should have reacted ? The whole idea was to put the police in a no win situation. |
Which goes to show just how ridiculous a law it is - they've created a no win situation for themselves. |  | | |
| Burkini on 11:10 - Aug 25 with 3893 views | johncharles |
| Burkini on 10:57 - Aug 25 by francisbowles |
With regards to standing up for their own culture, 'you can't put the genie back in the bottle', 'closing the stable door after the horse has bolted', 'you can't turn the clock back' are phrases that come to mind.
If they wanted to be a monoculture nation, then they needed to make that clear decades ago when they started taking immigrants from their former colonies.
They now have second and probably third generations who were born in France and their values now have to be accomodated.
They can get away with banning the burqa for security reasons and maybe the wearing of religious symbols in public on the grounds that it might be offensive to others but this is stretching it beyond the limit. Everyone has the right to cover up on the beach if they want to. |
France began being a secular state in 1789. Plenty of time for people to get used to it. | |
| Strong and stable my arse. |
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| Burkini on 11:14 - Aug 25 with 3884 views | Brightonhoop |
| Burkini on 10:32 - Aug 25 by PinnerPaul |
The woman on the beach was not wearing a full face burkha, she had long trousers on , a scarf and a long sleeved top and yet she is removed from the beach by 4 armed all male officers.
Not acceptable in any way shape or form.
"She knew the rules" that is pathetic, so if we banned certain races from UK beaches and they went on in protest, you would take the authorities side, because "they knew the rules"??????
Dangerous, dangerous route to go down. |
This is where it gets difficult and confusing because people confuse it with racism, which it isn't at all. It has nothing to do with race. There are an increasing minority of white Muslims, converting from he general population, or joining having not been religious previously. As has been pointed out,
It is difficult also because she was a woman, imo, being oppressed by a religion with practices that happily enslaves women as second class citizens and refuses to integrate or moderate. So it is compounded seeing police further oppress and humiliate her publicly. However, she knew the risks her actions could bring so she has to be partly responsible for what happened.
And the other problem is 'we mustn't offend them.' Well bollx to that, I dont want to see Burkas on the beach and nor do the French it seems. | | | |
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