| Burkini 08:16 - Aug 25 with 9194 views | exiled_dictator |
acceptable in 2016 uk or not?
you wouldn't catch me in one, because i would also wear a pashtun burka, so you would definitely not catch me at all. wouldn't see me in the dark either. like a ninja.
joking aside, i know that in france, particularly in the south, the authorities are trying to outlaw them, because they are 'not respectful of good morals and secularism'. whatever that means.
but surely, its about choice; women who choose to go to the beach and enjoy their time there, but wish to do so within their own personal choices. just as long as they are not forced to hide away, I'm not sure that it should be a problem.
and without wishing to spark a lfw meltdown, aren't the french police interfering with their human rights?
would it bother you to see women in burkinis at the beach or the local swimming pool?
storm in a tea cup? dunno. |  |
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| Burkini on 20:08 - Aug 25 with 1485 views | NW5Hoop |
| Burkini on 18:04 - Aug 25 by Juzzie |
I too think it's OTT but people also need to be careful about mixing up religion with race. It's too easy to call it racism when it's not.
I also think religions that are not indiginous to a certain country, any country, have got to be mindful of this and not expect everything to go their way. They're the 'visitor' as it were. "When in Rome....." and all that.
When I've visited countries (and I'm not religious) I respect their wishes, cultures etc. and they should do the same. Whether we agree with their laws or not, if visitors or non-indiginous people who live there (whether by birth or migration) break them then they get punished.
It's a bit hypocritical when the same people of faiths then expect, nay demand, their laws should apply to everyone else in other countries. It's trying to take control plain & simple hidden by all sorts of very clever ways and means and playing the race card to get people to be afraid to speak out. It's working because we are all turning against each other, just look at all the arguments on here over the years.
Just the same in society when it comes to class. The people at the top use these methods to control the masses and we don't even realise. People on the same level probably have more in common than they realise but are set against each other by those in power to keep them in their place. Religion, class.... it's all the same agenda.
IMO people are getting pi$$ed off not because they're inherently "racist" (sic) but because they're tired of being dictated to.
But yes, if France are truely to be non-secular then it has to apply to everyone. Complete removal of everything.
Personally I think that would be great as religion IMO has no place anywhere in the 21st century. Been used for centuries to control people, power, wealth etc. and is probably responsible for more misery, chaos & death than anything else. Kind of ironic really.
[Post edited 25 Aug 2016 18:17]
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But French Muslims are not trying to make their laws apply to everyone else! No one is saying all women on beaches should wear burkinis. Some Muslim women want to be able to wear a long sleeved, long legged swim suit with a head cover on the beach. Pretty much exactly the same thing I had my very fair kids wearing when they were little. |  | | |
| Burkini on 20:39 - Aug 25 with 1454 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Burkini on 19:30 - Aug 25 by johncharles |
Put yourself in the policemen's shoes. Remember the terrorists don't care about being recognised or caught. They don't have an escape plan. It's a one way ticket for them. The French police have behaved impeccably under huge provocation.
Just a small point. Some people have tried to make something of the police in this case being armed. French police are armed all the time. [Post edited 25 Aug 2016 19:31]
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Agreed, JC. Gendarmes are always armed, I think, and are only enforcing the laws as is their job. |  |
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| Burkini on 21:08 - Aug 25 with 1419 views | qprphil |
Well as an atheist., all this religion lark winds me up. I get annoyed not because I'm racist, but all these things are to do with religion. A lot of people come here because they want our way of life, and you cant blame them for that. The problem for me as an atheist is, once their here they want to carry on with all their religious ideals, which also means alienating themselves with their own kind, and not trying to be like us, which clearly upsets many people. My dad was a Lancaster bomber pilot during the war, and never knew if he would come home every time he went on a mission, he would turn in his grave if he saw what was going on now. | | | |
| Burkini on 21:12 - Aug 25 with 1412 views | martincook |
| Burkini on 20:06 - Aug 25 by NW5Hoop |
Do you not think there are scores of Muslim women who are in France not because it is their "host country", but because they were born there? And the reason they were born there is that lots of them have Algerian ancestry. Algeria, you may recall, was invaded and colonised by France, from 1830. First rule of post-colonialism: you invaded a country and occupied it for more than a century? You don't have any right to say no when people from there want to come to your own country.
These women were Muslim before the terrorist attacks. Why the f*ck should they have to change the way they dress because some blokes they don't know went mental?
Jesus. |
I've not necessarily been supportive of NW5 in the recent past but this post nails it. I live in France and I can tell you there's more going on here than meets the eye. Racism has been and remains deeply entrenched. Once it was the Jews. Now it's the Arabs. It is a sad and ugly state of affairs. |  | | |
| Burkini on 21:19 - Aug 25 with 1402 views | NW5Hoop |
| Burkini on 21:08 - Aug 25 by qprphil |
Well as an atheist., all this religion lark winds me up. I get annoyed not because I'm racist, but all these things are to do with religion. A lot of people come here because they want our way of life, and you cant blame them for that. The problem for me as an atheist is, once their here they want to carry on with all their religious ideals, which also means alienating themselves with their own kind, and not trying to be like us, which clearly upsets many people. My dad was a Lancaster bomber pilot during the war, and never knew if he would come home every time he went on a mission, he would turn in his grave if he saw what was going on now. |
Your dad would turn in his grave because, as a Lancaster bomber pilot, he wouldn't want Muslim women wearing burkinis? Honestly? Didn't he fight for people's right to freedom and difference?
On the wider point, about whether people who move to another country should assimilate fully … Tell it to the British people who move to Spain and don't learn Spanish. Tell it to the British people who go to work in the Middle East for years on end, lock themselves away in private compounds, where they can behave as they want, rather than as the rest of the society does. Tell it to the Brits who go everywhere in the world and carry on behaving just like … Brits. You can't demand people who come to Europe — or who in many cases have been in Europe for generations — erase any trace of difference unless you believe the same to be true of Britons who move abroad. | | | |
| Burkini on 21:32 - Aug 25 with 1389 views | martincook |
| Burkini on 19:36 - Aug 25 by kensalriser |
This isn't about the police, it's about the tinpot would-be dictator mayors of the towns who are passing these bye-laws and making political capital out of discrimination. |
Correct but it is not as simple as that. French society is shot through with discrimination, from the farm labourer to the President of the Republic. There are lots of great things about France and French people but this Burkini business isn't one of them. | | | |
| Burkini on 22:07 - Aug 25 with 1349 views | DeepcutHoop |
| Burkini on 18:04 - Aug 25 by Juzzie |
I too think it's OTT but people also need to be careful about mixing up religion with race. It's too easy to call it racism when it's not.
I also think religions that are not indiginous to a certain country, any country, have got to be mindful of this and not expect everything to go their way. They're the 'visitor' as it were. "When in Rome....." and all that.
When I've visited countries (and I'm not religious) I respect their wishes, cultures etc. and they should do the same. Whether we agree with their laws or not, if visitors or non-indiginous people who live there (whether by birth or migration) break them then they get punished.
It's a bit hypocritical when the same people of faiths then expect, nay demand, their laws should apply to everyone else in other countries. It's trying to take control plain & simple hidden by all sorts of very clever ways and means and playing the race card to get people to be afraid to speak out. It's working because we are all turning against each other, just look at all the arguments on here over the years.
Just the same in society when it comes to class. The people at the top use these methods to control the masses and we don't even realise. People on the same level probably have more in common than they realise but are set against each other by those in power to keep them in their place. Religion, class.... it's all the same agenda.
IMO people are getting pi$$ed off not because they're inherently "racist" (sic) but because they're tired of being dictated to.
But yes, if France are truely to be non-secular then it has to apply to everyone. Complete removal of everything.
Personally I think that would be great as religion IMO has no place anywhere in the 21st century. Been used for centuries to control people, power, wealth etc. and is probably responsible for more misery, chaos & death than anything else. Kind of ironic really.
[Post edited 25 Aug 2016 18:17]
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Complete removal of religion is not what a secular society means though.
Secular means no state religion imposing religious law for everyone else. It doesn't mean people cannot be practice their religion.
http://www.secularism.org.uk/what-is-secularism.html
"Secularism is a principle that involves two basic propositions. The first is the strict separation of the state from religious institutions. The second is that people of different religions and beliefs are equal before the law."
That's how it should be, in an ideal world. | | | |
| Burkini on 22:11 - Aug 25 with 1344 views | LythamR |
muslin women choosing to wear a burkini on a public beach should be applauded not victimised
They are trying to integrate and live as normal a life as can be managed whilst not completely disrespecting their religion. many muslim men and and the imans would rather the womwn stayed sat on a bench in the full get up sweating their arse off
I have seen it enough in tropical climes where you have a muslim man sauntering around in shorts and his top off while his wife follows meekly in a thick black blanket in 90 degree heat and humidity and it really pisses me off
I think the French have got this badly wrong and no good will come of it.
As for the suggestions that the reported incident was stage managed and the police had no choice, if thats the case then good on them, some laws should be forcibly challenged, remember the Suffragettes? |  | | |
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| Burkini on 23:11 - Aug 25 with 1270 views | qprphil |
| Burkini on 21:19 - Aug 25 by NW5Hoop |
Your dad would turn in his grave because, as a Lancaster bomber pilot, he wouldn't want Muslim women wearing burkinis? Honestly? Didn't he fight for people's right to freedom and difference?
On the wider point, about whether people who move to another country should assimilate fully … Tell it to the British people who move to Spain and don't learn Spanish. Tell it to the British people who go to work in the Middle East for years on end, lock themselves away in private compounds, where they can behave as they want, rather than as the rest of the society does. Tell it to the Brits who go everywhere in the world and carry on behaving just like … Brits. You can't demand people who come to Europe — or who in many cases have been in Europe for generations — erase any trace of difference unless you believe the same to be true of Britons who move abroad. |
People who move to Spain or anywhere else for that matter, will probably be retirees, or those that have jobs,and not people who want to sponge off the state, like the hundred thousands we have. I haven't heard of any Brits bombing, or stabbing or anything like that. What I was referring to regarding my fathers efforts in the war were, look how our country is now, are you inferring it is a better place to live.? He fought for his and his countries freedom, something we don't have now, for fear of religious fanatics.!!!!! either here or abroad. You think our country, or France or anywhere else for that matter is a better place to live than what it was in the fifties, life is not like it used to be because of religion. You may be happy with how things are, most of the people I know, certainly aren't. I am nervous when I go out, to London, to go by plane, or train, by car, or sail, call that freedom.!!!! | | | |
| Burkini on 23:34 - Aug 25 with 1247 views | WanderR |
First of all, a sense of proportion: It's one beach in one French town on the whim of the local mayor. The French Parliament haven't suddenly passed a law to ban these swimsuits throughout the whole of the country.
Secondly I've given this some thought today; the clash of two liberal principles, the freedom of religion and equality of the sexes, the fact that France is a fiercely secular country and the ongoing battle for hearts and minds within the Muslim community and the wider populace, with the French establishment on one side and the Islamist radicals on the other.
My cynical conclusion is that since the French police and security services are seemingly unable to prevent a endless stream of terrorist attacks that have now killed hundreds despite a national state of emergency and thousands of troops patrolling the streets it's the only thing they can do to give some kind of illusion that they're in control. If the incident in question was a staged photo op then that would add credence to this line of thinking. |  |
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| Burkini on 00:00 - Aug 26 with 1223 views | NW5Hoop |
| Burkini on 23:11 - Aug 25 by qprphil |
People who move to Spain or anywhere else for that matter, will probably be retirees, or those that have jobs,and not people who want to sponge off the state, like the hundred thousands we have. I haven't heard of any Brits bombing, or stabbing or anything like that. What I was referring to regarding my fathers efforts in the war were, look how our country is now, are you inferring it is a better place to live.? He fought for his and his countries freedom, something we don't have now, for fear of religious fanatics.!!!!! either here or abroad. You think our country, or France or anywhere else for that matter is a better place to live than what it was in the fifties, life is not like it used to be because of religion. You may be happy with how things are, most of the people I know, certainly aren't. I am nervous when I go out, to London, to go by plane, or train, by car, or sail, call that freedom.!!!! |
It doesn't matter whether they're retirees or not. You said people should integrate. The same rules apply to retirees or people who have jobs. And, Jesus, do you not see countless Muslims WORKING IN BLOODY JOBS HERE every day of the week?
And, yes, I do think this is a better place to live than in the 50s. Less deference to elites. More social freedom. No national service. No rationing. If you're nervous to go out in London, stay out of London. I spend every day in London and never feel nervous. [Post edited 26 Aug 2016 0:01]
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| Burkini on 00:35 - Aug 26 with 1201 views | qprphil |
I'm not Jesus, and lets just say we will agree to disagree, as we will go on forever. You have your thoughts, and I have mine. | | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 07:28 - Aug 26 with 1141 views | RosieG |
| Burkini on 00:00 - Aug 26 by NW5Hoop |
It doesn't matter whether they're retirees or not. You said people should integrate. The same rules apply to retirees or people who have jobs. And, Jesus, do you not see countless Muslims WORKING IN BLOODY JOBS HERE every day of the week?
And, yes, I do think this is a better place to live than in the 50s. Less deference to elites. More social freedom. No national service. No rationing. If you're nervous to go out in London, stay out of London. I spend every day in London and never feel nervous. [Post edited 26 Aug 2016 0:01]
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| Burkini on 07:51 - Aug 26 with 1128 views | Brightonhoop |
| Burkini on 19:36 - Aug 25 by kensalriser |
This isn't about the police, it's about the tinpot would-be dictator mayors of the towns who are passing these bye-laws and making political capital out of discrimination. |
A year ago I would have agreed with that, but this is after several attacks now in which hundreds have been killed. 85 alone in Nice, where some injured will carry the scars of the truck driver forever. People are genuinely scared.
In the circumstances this woman was stupid and arrogant, choosing to be provocative with no regard for the dead and injured killed in the name of the religion that makes her wear a Burka.
There are traces all the way back to Vichy France in those coastal towns so it is not difficult to imagine tin pot dictators in the Town Halls, but this was her decision, with no regard for the victims of very recent attacks.
If, some catholic freedom fighters of Irish decent turned up on Brighton Beach for a picnic, in full combats, balaclavas and AK47's all huddled around the cool box, it wouldn't be much more provocative than this woman has been. And the reaction would have been to a perceived threat in a community that has been attacked previously, albeit a long time go. Unlike Nice. Everyone expects further bombings and she was stupid to protest in the way she did, if that's what she was doing.
What pishes me off these types expecting everyone to respect their religious views and freedoms whilst they have no regard whatsoever for others. Doing that in Nice at this time just confirmed the total disregard for a host City and Country. [Post edited 26 Aug 2016 7:55]
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| Burkini on 08:09 - Aug 26 with 1119 views | NW5Hoop |
| Burkini on 07:51 - Aug 26 by Brightonhoop |
A year ago I would have agreed with that, but this is after several attacks now in which hundreds have been killed. 85 alone in Nice, where some injured will carry the scars of the truck driver forever. People are genuinely scared.
In the circumstances this woman was stupid and arrogant, choosing to be provocative with no regard for the dead and injured killed in the name of the religion that makes her wear a Burka.
There are traces all the way back to Vichy France in those coastal towns so it is not difficult to imagine tin pot dictators in the Town Halls, but this was her decision, with no regard for the victims of very recent attacks.
If, some catholic freedom fighters of Irish decent turned up on Brighton Beach for a picnic, in full combats, balaclavas and AK47's all huddled around the cool box, it wouldn't be much more provocative than this woman has been. And the reaction would have been to a perceived threat in a community that has been attacked previously, albeit a long time go. Unlike Nice. Everyone expects further bombings and she was stupid to protest in the way she did, if that's what she was doing.
What pishes me off these types expecting everyone to respect their religious views and freedoms whilst they have no regard whatsoever for others. Doing that in Nice at this time just confirmed the total disregard for a host City and Country. [Post edited 26 Aug 2016 7:55]
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Do you really not see the difference between a swimsuit that covers your arms and legs, and wearing combat gear, balaclavas and AK47s?
And it's not her "host country". It's HER country. [Post edited 26 Aug 2016 8:09]
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| Burkini on 08:56 - Aug 26 with 1102 views | Metallica_Hoop |
I don't have a problem with someone covering up on the beach.
The Burka however should be banned. It has no place here, we stopped wearing shit like that in the 15th Century. |  |
| Beer and Beef has made us what we are - The Prince Regent |
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| Burkini on 09:18 - Aug 26 with 1082 views | TheBlob |
| Burkini on 08:56 - Aug 26 by Metallica_Hoop |
I don't have a problem with someone covering up on the beach.
The Burka however should be banned. It has no place here, we stopped wearing shit like that in the 15th Century. |
Bathing clothed can be a perilous business.
This unfortunate soul - bystanders here thought all the thrashing about and waving was actually part of the ritual.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2183548/Dov-Berish-Englander-Rabbi-drown |  |
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| Burkini on 09:24 - Aug 26 with 1071 views | Metallica_Hoop |
That's unfortunate indeed.
What about those poor bastards in the quicksand? I've been to St Mont Michele and had a walk round it (and literally around it) the place is surrounded by it.
On reflection I wouldn't do it now! | |
| Beer and Beef has made us what we are - The Prince Regent |
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| Burkini on 09:34 - Aug 26 with 1055 views | TheBlob |
| Burkini on 09:24 - Aug 26 by Metallica_Hoop |
That's unfortunate indeed.
What about those poor bastards in the quicksand? I've been to St Mont Michele and had a walk round it (and literally around it) the place is surrounded by it.
On reflection I wouldn't do it now! |
I believe Camber cancelled the lifeguard services a couple of years ago due to spending cuts?It's such a treacherous environment to the unwary. | |
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| Burkini on 11:28 - Aug 26 with 979 views | Juzzie |
| Burkini on 20:08 - Aug 25 by NW5Hoop |
But French Muslims are not trying to make their laws apply to everyone else! No one is saying all women on beaches should wear burkinis. Some Muslim women want to be able to wear a long sleeved, long legged swim suit with a head cover on the beach. Pretty much exactly the same thing I had my very fair kids wearing when they were little. |
I never said they were. I was generalising about the bigger issues of people imposing themselves on others particularly in other countries/cultures.
Personally I see no problem with the burkini. |  | | |
| Burkini on 11:33 - Aug 26 with 975 views | 1MoreBrightonR |
| Burkini on 23:11 - Aug 25 by qprphil |
People who move to Spain or anywhere else for that matter, will probably be retirees, or those that have jobs,and not people who want to sponge off the state, like the hundred thousands we have. I haven't heard of any Brits bombing, or stabbing or anything like that. What I was referring to regarding my fathers efforts in the war were, look how our country is now, are you inferring it is a better place to live.? He fought for his and his countries freedom, something we don't have now, for fear of religious fanatics.!!!!! either here or abroad. You think our country, or France or anywhere else for that matter is a better place to live than what it was in the fifties, life is not like it used to be because of religion. You may be happy with how things are, most of the people I know, certainly aren't. I am nervous when I go out, to London, to go by plane, or train, by car, or sail, call that freedom.!!!! |
Are you nervous when you cross a road? because statistically, thats a lot more dangerous than terrorism. | | | |
| Burkini on 12:36 - Aug 26 with 941 views | Brightonhoop |
| Burkini on 08:09 - Aug 26 by NW5Hoop |
Do you really not see the difference between a swimsuit that covers your arms and legs, and wearing combat gear, balaclavas and AK47s?
And it's not her "host country". It's HER country. [Post edited 26 Aug 2016 8:09]
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Ok, I was being provocative myself. However in truth, full combats and a balaclava less the AK47 is no different. Make no mistake, we are at war and the enemy is not easily identified and is happy to walk amongst us. And detonate him/herself.
I dont know if she was born in the west or not, you do? Let's call it her host Culture then. That is where we in the west have gone wrong. Every other culture and religion has largely assimilated, even enhanced our own culture and values. Sikhs for example working the classic corner shop 24/7 whilst some of our own watch Jeremy Kyle on large tv's. I know which I would prefer so please dont pull the racist card. I'm not.
Personally, I dont want to see the Burka anywhere, least of all on the beach. As someone else said that $h!t belongs in the 15th century desert, it has no place in 21st Western Europe. | | | |
| Burkini on 12:54 - Aug 26 with 923 views | Hayesender |
I'd rather ban fat Russians wearing speedos.
And British blokes wearing socks with sandals.
Come to think of it, any bloke wearing something open toed unless on holiday in a hot country. |  |
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| Burkini on 13:33 - Aug 26 with 891 views | R_from_afar |
| Burkini on 09:53 - Aug 25 by MrSheen |
I'm still getting over my outrage and horror at being ordered to wear Speedos in a French pool 20 years ago. So is everyone who saw me in them. |
While we're on that subject, I'd like to apologise to anyone who had the misfortune to see me wearing the obligatory swimming cap during school swimming lessons. I must've looked like an HB pencil with built in eraser, skinny waif that I was.
RFA |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Burkini on 13:45 - Aug 26 with 1550 views | R_from_afar |
I just knew that things would escalate and sure enough, they have. In a sinister move, Iran has now banned the wearing of strings of onions in public. Where oh where will it end?
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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