| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 13:40 - Dec 9 with 22232 views | Lohengrin |
1955:
"The lasting bequest we give to our children is roots."
Goethe
2015:
"The Turcoman hath left his herd."
Lord Byron
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| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:08 - Dec 9 with 2052 views | londonlisa2001 |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 16:38 - Dec 9 by Lohengrin |
You can't do that. You can't start your reply by saying it wasn't accurate then in the second sentence agree.
As for the main thrust of your argument it's the same thesis I hear propounded time and again and I simply don't accept it. Are we really to believe that unless vast numbers of migrants are imported from backward countries then we are to starve to death in our dotage? I was leafing through the recently published McGuiness report on UK unemployment and when you look at the percentage stats for ethnic minorities it doesn't make for comfortable reading, yet still they come. Not in their tens, not in their hundreds, not in their thousands nor tens of thousands but by their hundreds of thousands.
The old maxim states that you don't reinforce failure. Here we actively celebrate it. |
I was using shorthand which should have been apparent from the post I was replying to.
No, it's not accurate that you were using the two photos simply to highlight population displacement.
You were using them to try to make some sort of point (as underlined with your use of Goethe) that the two pictures indicated that we have completely lost our national identity as a result of the population displacement, our values, our way of life and that our nation is rootless as a result. It also was intended to suggest that we have somehow let down our children by allowing it to happen.
As for your second point, made now, yes, without immigration we are unable to continue to support public spending. The white population is having children at a rate of 1.6 per couple - it needs to be 2.1 to maintain the population level. If the population level is not supported, you have less and less people in work supporting the state. This is compounded with there being an increasingly older population (by definition - if people getting older have less children the whole population gets older). There is a resistance to an increase in retirement age (a meaningful increase - there has been enough bleating about it going up by a couple of years), and people expect the NHS to provide more and ore treatment as medicine becomes more advanced and people get older. We also have a section of the white population that does not work. Either because they are not able to or because they don't wish to, or won't do the jobs that are available where they are available.
And you are confusing immigration with ethnic minorities. Not the same thing. Immigration can be from any ethnicity and ethnic minorities are not immigrants.
By the way - your use of the term 'backward countries' is really pretty ridiculous. The top ten countries of origin for UK immigration (in order) are as follows:
- China, Spain, India, Australia, Poland, France, USA, Italy, Romania, Lithuania (2013 immigration which is the most recent data available at present).
hardly the influx from the desert you are making out is it? |  | | |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:10 - Dec 9 with 2051 views | Highjack |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 15:00 - Dec 9 by Lohengrin |
There are none so blind as those who will not see. |
The ones in the second picture probably can't see because their faces are pixelated. |  |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:11 - Dec 9 with 2052 views | Lohengrin |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:03 - Dec 9 by Gowerjack |
Come on Loh your're usually better than this.
Have you been down the club for a couple of Christmas sherries with the lads? |
No. I've been down Sainsbury's pushing the trolley while her indoors does her best to bankrupt me, I haven't long got back. I bumped into a mate of mine from school, his boy is in the RAF and he was telling me he's shipping out to Akrotiri this week.
It got me thinking what sort of a country is it that can produce kids like him while forty miles up the road produce recruits for the enemy? It set my teeth on edge. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:12 - Dec 9 with 2050 views | LeonisGod |
Ah, very thinly veiled (no pun intended) racist post of the week. Marvellous.
Although I agree that there should be no place for single religion schools in the UK, be that Islamic, Catholic, whatever. Religion should be taught as a separate subject for what it is, not a viewpoint through which all other subjects are taught. |  | | |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:21 - Dec 9 with 2038 views | Lohengrin |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:08 - Dec 9 by londonlisa2001 |
I was using shorthand which should have been apparent from the post I was replying to.
No, it's not accurate that you were using the two photos simply to highlight population displacement.
You were using them to try to make some sort of point (as underlined with your use of Goethe) that the two pictures indicated that we have completely lost our national identity as a result of the population displacement, our values, our way of life and that our nation is rootless as a result. It also was intended to suggest that we have somehow let down our children by allowing it to happen.
As for your second point, made now, yes, without immigration we are unable to continue to support public spending. The white population is having children at a rate of 1.6 per couple - it needs to be 2.1 to maintain the population level. If the population level is not supported, you have less and less people in work supporting the state. This is compounded with there being an increasingly older population (by definition - if people getting older have less children the whole population gets older). There is a resistance to an increase in retirement age (a meaningful increase - there has been enough bleating about it going up by a couple of years), and people expect the NHS to provide more and ore treatment as medicine becomes more advanced and people get older. We also have a section of the white population that does not work. Either because they are not able to or because they don't wish to, or won't do the jobs that are available where they are available.
And you are confusing immigration with ethnic minorities. Not the same thing. Immigration can be from any ethnicity and ethnic minorities are not immigrants.
By the way - your use of the term 'backward countries' is really pretty ridiculous. The top ten countries of origin for UK immigration (in order) are as follows:
- China, Spain, India, Australia, Poland, France, USA, Italy, Romania, Lithuania (2013 immigration which is the most recent data available at present).
hardly the influx from the desert you are making out is it? |
"*....we have completely lost our national identity as a result of the population displacement, our values, our way of life and that our nation is rootless as a result"
Those are indeed the new Stations of The Cross the next generation will have to traverse. That these things will come to pass is ineluctable.
"*...we have somehow let down our children by allowing it to happen."
I bear my share of the guilt. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:21 - Dec 9 with 2037 views | dailew |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:12 - Dec 9 by LeonisGod |
Ah, very thinly veiled (no pun intended) racist post of the week. Marvellous.
Although I agree that there should be no place for single religion schools in the UK, be that Islamic, Catholic, whatever. Religion should be taught as a separate subject for what it is, not a viewpoint through which all other subjects are taught. |
Agree apart from I don't think religion should be taught at school at all. Perhaps just one history lesson explaining the various myths people believed in before science and reason taught us otherwise. |  |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:27 - Dec 9 with 2026 views | londonlisa2001 |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:00 - Dec 9 by dailew |
A school full of indigenous kids. How awful Can't have that. At least it won't be like that for long.
Waving flags given to you for a photo opportunity with one of the most famous women in the world does not make them integrated.
As the current rate London will be majority Muslim sometime in the 2040s. |
I din't say it was awful. The difference is that I also don't think that picture you posted is awful.
They're children - with happy smiling faces. I don't care what colour their faces are or whether they are covering their heads or not. I care that they are happy and smiling, because happy smiling people of every nationality and ethnicity are the joy of the world not the problem.
The problem is the snarling, vitriolic, hate-filled, scowling people like you and your equivalents on the 'other side'. People who look for the reasons why people are different rather than why they are the same.
If you could look at the picture you posted and see them as happy kids not brown kids, the world would be an infinitely better place. | | | |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:31 - Dec 9 with 2008 views | londonlisa2001 |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:21 - Dec 9 by Lohengrin |
"*....we have completely lost our national identity as a result of the population displacement, our values, our way of life and that our nation is rootless as a result"
Those are indeed the new Stations of The Cross the next generation will have to traverse. That these things will come to pass is ineluctable.
"*...we have somehow let down our children by allowing it to happen."
I bear my share of the guilt. |
Please avoid quoting as though I have said those things. | | | |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:34 - Dec 9 with 2002 views | trampie |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 15:46 - Dec 9 by Lohengrin |
It represents population displacement, Lisa. As such it is perfectly accurate. Now you are perfectly free to think that's fine, there are others who would lament the passing of a nation. |
I see you use the phrase 'the passing of', have you read 'The passing of the great race', Lohengrin ? |  |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:34 - Dec 9 with 2006 views | Lohengrin |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:31 - Dec 9 by londonlisa2001 |
Please avoid quoting as though I have said those things. |
That wasn't my intent, Lisa. Anybody reading that I would have thought would see it as you attempting to sum up what I am feeling.
They will. You have. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:36 - Dec 9 with 2001 views | Lohengrin |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:34 - Dec 9 by trampie |
I see you use the phrase 'the passing of', have you read 'The passing of the great race', Lohengrin ? |
No I haven't. You asked me that before, didn't you?
I used the phrase in its common usage, as in ceases to be. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:38 - Dec 9 with 1999 views | londonlisa2001 |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:34 - Dec 9 by Lohengrin |
That wasn't my intent, Lisa. Anybody reading that I would have thought would see it as you attempting to sum up what I am feeling.
They will. You have. |
Thanks. | | | |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:41 - Dec 9 with 1982 views | trampie |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:36 - Dec 9 by Lohengrin |
No I haven't. You asked me that before, didn't you?
I used the phrase in its common usage, as in ceases to be. |
No, I asked you if you had read Breivik's manifesto and you didn't reply ? | |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:45 - Dec 9 with 1983 views | Lohengrin |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:38 - Dec 9 by londonlisa2001 |
Thanks. |
I'm not overly fussed on being misquoted myself, if there was any confusion for anybody then I'm happy to clear it up.
Actually I'm using this thread now to limber up for tonight. We've got an old pal of mine and his wife coming over. They live away and haven't been home in ages. The pair of them are card-carrying Fabians, God help us. The last time I saw them their bleeding hearts left a stain on the runner in the hall.  | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:48 - Dec 9 with 1975 views | Lohengrin |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:41 - Dec 9 by trampie |
No, I asked you if you had read Breivik's manifesto and you didn't reply ? |
In that case no, on both counts.
I'm reading Robert Coll's new biography of Orwell and Nicholas Comfort's Slow Death of British Industry in tandem at the moment. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 18:03 - Dec 9 with 1789 views | Highjack |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:41 - Dec 9 by trampie |
No, I asked you if you had read Breivik's manifesto and you didn't reply ? |
He helped write it! | |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 18:13 - Dec 9 with 1776 views | dailew |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:27 - Dec 9 by londonlisa2001 |
I din't say it was awful. The difference is that I also don't think that picture you posted is awful.
They're children - with happy smiling faces. I don't care what colour their faces are or whether they are covering their heads or not. I care that they are happy and smiling, because happy smiling people of every nationality and ethnicity are the joy of the world not the problem.
The problem is the snarling, vitriolic, hate-filled, scowling people like you and your equivalents on the 'other side'. People who look for the reasons why people are different rather than why they are the same.
If you could look at the picture you posted and see them as happy kids not brown kids, the world would be an infinitely better place. |
Planet Swans bingo.
Lonondlista always the first to mention skin color.
Just need ECB to chip in with a "don't know how you have the patience to argue with these idiots" type post and I'll have a full house.
Don't care what skin color they are.
Do care what poisonous ideology they are taught and believe in. | |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 18:26 - Dec 9 with 1760 views | LeonisGod |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 17:21 - Dec 9 by dailew |
Agree apart from I don't think religion should be taught at school at all. Perhaps just one history lesson explaining the various myths people believed in before science and reason taught us otherwise. |
That's what I meant really when I said teach it "for what it is". I'm just a lazy typist.
I'd put all modern religions on the same level as those throughout the ages (Greek gods, etc). Some fascinating practices, incredible architecture, interesting insights into people and their beliefs, actions, control, conflict, why people feel the need for structure, etc. But teach from an objective viewpoint not warped by a religious view.
What would be fascinating would be a reinterpretation of religious texts in term of what we now know about the workings of the human mind, the earth's physical systems, etc. Debunking the myths if you like. | | | |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 18:58 - Dec 9 with 1741 views | Aquinas |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 15:43 - Dec 9 by londonlisa2001 |
Oh, I disagree.
I think that those who only see a distorted truth are much more blind.
You have shown a picture from the Manchester Islamic School for Girls to try to stir up hatred and to try to demonstrate that they don't try to mix with 'us'.
If you wanted to show a more balanced view of the school mixing in with the rest of the Manchester population you could easily have chosen others.
The girls from the school on a trip to see Man Utd play at Old Trafford:
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12196335_681072705327
Or you could show the girls from the school on their way to visit the European parliament in Brussels to learn about the EU and Britain's role in the EU:
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/12107092_677760725658
Or you could have referenced the talk they received on November 9th of this year, where, and I quote from their own feed:
"Pupils listen to Jahan Mahmood, a Birmingham researcher, explaining the role that Muslims played for Britain and its allies during World War 2.
Many Muslims in Albania in particular, died trying to protect the Jews from the Nazis.
"There were 2.5 million Indians who fought in the war of which 600,000 were Muslim soldiers."
The problem with racists is that they are selective. This is a private school for Moslem girls and it is fairly obvious that it is not going to show a diverse section of the population.
One could equally show a picture from a private CofE establishment and you wouldn't see any diversity there either.
I disagree with faith schools - I believe that they don't represent modern society. But do everyone a favour and stop pretending that things are what they are not. That sort of disinformation does no one any good at all. |
How the hell did they manage to get tickets?!
I doubt that would go down well here... it's bad enough when the DVLA get free tickets. |  | | |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 19:06 - Dec 9 with 1729 views | exiledclaseboy |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 18:13 - Dec 9 by dailew |
Planet Swans bingo.
Lonondlista always the first to mention skin color.
Just need ECB to chip in with a "don't know how you have the patience to argue with these idiots" type post and I'll have a full house.
Don't care what skin color they are.
Do care what poisonous ideology they are taught and believe in. |
I only use that line when the people Lisa is arguing with are idiots. Lohengrin clearly isn't. I know that for a fact. Neither are you. I do think you both have some hugely distasteful views and will skew things to suit those views but I can live with that. We're all different.
Just to add to the PS bingo card - Dailew saying "waycist" in a fairly lame attempt at derivative humour. |  |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 19:28 - Dec 9 with 1698 views | CountyJim |
Faith Schools are very good
If people want to build an Atheist school knock yourselves out |  | | |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 19:33 - Dec 9 with 1694 views | exiledclaseboy |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 19:28 - Dec 9 by CountyJim |
Faith Schools are very good
If people want to build an Atheist school knock yourselves out |
All schools should be faith free. Religion should play no part in education apart from factual teachings of the origins, customs and cultures of the various faiths with no bias towards any faith to encourage tolerance. | |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 19:40 - Dec 9 with 1682 views | Lord_Bony |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 19:33 - Dec 9 by exiledclaseboy |
All schools should be faith free. Religion should play no part in education apart from factual teachings of the origins, customs and cultures of the various faiths with no bias towards any faith to encourage tolerance. |
Sorry but this is still a Christian country. Christianity is still taught as part of the school curriculum...it s up to kids when they leave to decide if it was all a load of bollox or not...thats just the way it is.
Its understandable therefore why other families from a different faith whatever it is would want their child educated with that faith as part of the curriculum. A very expensive option but again thats how it is.. |  |
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| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 19:48 - Dec 9 with 1670 views | exiledclaseboy |
| A tale of two Manchester school photos: 1955 - 2015 on 19:40 - Dec 9 by Lord_Bony |
Sorry but this is still a Christian country. Christianity is still taught as part of the school curriculum...it s up to kids when they leave to decide if it was all a load of bollox or not...thats just the way it is.
Its understandable therefore why other families from a different faith whatever it is would want their child educated with that faith as part of the curriculum. A very expensive option but again thats how it is.. |
I disagree. Faith based schools aren't education, it's indoctrination. If someone wants to follow a faith they should be able to choose freely to do it, not have it forced upon them from the moment they start nursery. Parents can choose to bring their kids up in that way if they want, it's their right as parents. The state should have no part in it. And most of the UK is "Christian" in the same way that I am. i.e. Not at all. | |
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