| Grammar Schools 22:17 - Sep 8 with 22071 views | texasranger |
I can't help feeling that much of the currently fashionable condemnation of grammar schools is based on two false premises; that they are socially divisive, and that kids who failed the old 11-plus were branded as 'failures'. I'm an old geezer now who went to a boys only grammar school in the early 1950's but we had all sorts there, bright academics through to some right tearaways. I was just a boy from a working class family but I enjoyed and benefited from grammar school though not enough to go to university, doing two years National service instead, but my mates outside school were a mixture of Secondary Modern, Technical and Grammar school boys. We got along fine and theTech and S/Modern boys went on to become printers, plumbers, builders and engineers, all of whom I suspect made more money than I did. Surely any school regardless of type will grade kids by ability and attempting to force kids of different backgrounds to socialise will not work. Finally, condemning today's grammar schools on account of the number of kids getting free school meals seems totally irrelevant. I realise I may be the only surviving Rangers supporter who went to a grammar school so if I get any response I expect it to be unfavourable. No matter. Come on you RRRRRRRRRR's ! |  | | |  |
| Grammar Schools on 20:57 - Sep 10 with 2152 views | martincook |
| Grammar Schools on 10:38 - Sep 10 by PlanetHonneywood |
In every place where you have selection at such a ridiculously early age, then inequality will come to the fore.
Kids who tend to do well in such systems essentially come from backgrounds where; their parents value and excelled in education, smaller households which allow for study i.e. their own room and not being bothered by lots of siblings, good nutrition plays a part as does the not insignificant factor or, being surrounded by like minded kids/families.
That's not to say identifying ability and tailoring teaching is wrong per se, but at 11? I fear that the 'token' places that will be taken up by kids from working class backgrounds will be just that, token gestures and with cost being a determinative factor from age 18 onwards, the goal posts have been moved to before aged 11.
What is needed in my view, are well funded/resourced schools, teachers actually valued and frankly, I wouldn't rule out returning the bamboo thrashing canes for some. The first outing of which, would be to batter this idea which really has more potential to be divisive than being really inclusive.
I feel sorry for kids, messed about at a time when its bloody hard going for them.
I'd also add, it was a bad day when we decided that exam results and university was everything and that trades were something to be looked down upon and outsourced to people prepared to work for less money. |
"I wouldn't rule out the bamboo thrashing canes for some." Disagree.
"It was a bad day when someone decided that exam results and university was everything and that trades were something to be looked down upon and outsourced to people prepared to work for less money." Right on. |  | | |
| Grammar Schools on 21:42 - Sep 10 with 2121 views | martincook |
Thanks for these links. They compare pupil achievement in state and private education. What I wanted to know was the BBC's take on poorer children doing worse in Grammar Schools because I'm not sure it's been demonstrated that they do. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 03:51 - Sep 11 with 2071 views | nix |
| Grammar Schools on 21:42 - Sep 10 by martincook |
Thanks for these links. They compare pupil achievement in state and private education. What I wanted to know was the BBC's take on poorer children doing worse in Grammar Schools because I'm not sure it's been demonstrated that they do. |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37310541e
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37320794
They don't obviously show that poorer children do worse in grammar schools than if they were at comprehensives. That would be unlikely as grammars cream off the best and also are likely to have better teaching, more resources etc. But what they do appear to show is that overall poorer children do worse in areas where grammar schools exist, poorer children are less likely to get into grammar schools (for the reasons I gave earlier) and that when the EBacc is considered as a measure of achievement (the gold standard for assessment), there is still a gap of 12 percentage points between attainment of the richer and poorer pupils. Is it really worth disrupting everyone's education, disadvantaging the majority of poorer children, for the benefit of a minority of children, who still may not achieve what their richer friends do?
What worries me is that politicians seem to base their decision-making wholly on their own personal experiences of health services, education etc and illogically think that what worked or didn't work for them is the basis of a complete overhaul of our education or health services, with no consideration of how the country will benefit overall. |  | | |
| Grammar Schools on 05:28 - Sep 11 with 2062 views | LadbrokeR |
| Grammar Schools on 15:38 - Sep 10 by ShotKneesHoop |
Ladbroke R,
When did you leave the crumbling joint? I just hope you enjoyed it your schooldays more at Walpole than I did. Bored to distraction, teachers were vindictive tw@ts. Divisive - my mates from primary school were subbed off all over the place with up to 10 mile journeys to schools. I had to commute on the Piccadilly line to get to grammar school.
Having said that the school season tube ticket was free so that was another reason to support QPR because the pass was valid as far as Park Royal.
Then I had wait yonks for the sodding lousy piss poor 105 bus and pay to go down the Western Avenue to walk down Bloemfontein Road to Loftus Road. So it had its good points. |
I left in 1977. I had two years before it became Elthorne High. I remember the head teacher being Nobby Clarke and walks to games lessons at Blondin park. I remember a prefect called Birch who was years older that us but seemed enjoy picking on us. Of course all this changed in 1974 when the Grammar school changed to become a high school. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 08:15 - Sep 11 with 2041 views | martincook |
| Grammar Schools on 03:51 - Sep 11 by nix |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37310541e
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37320794
They don't obviously show that poorer children do worse in grammar schools than if they were at comprehensives. That would be unlikely as grammars cream off the best and also are likely to have better teaching, more resources etc. But what they do appear to show is that overall poorer children do worse in areas where grammar schools exist, poorer children are less likely to get into grammar schools (for the reasons I gave earlier) and that when the EBacc is considered as a measure of achievement (the gold standard for assessment), there is still a gap of 12 percentage points between attainment of the richer and poorer pupils. Is it really worth disrupting everyone's education, disadvantaging the majority of poorer children, for the benefit of a minority of children, who still may not achieve what their richer friends do?
What worries me is that politicians seem to base their decision-making wholly on their own personal experiences of health services, education etc and illogically think that what worked or didn't work for them is the basis of a complete overhaul of our education or health services, with no consideration of how the country will benefit overall. |
OK, so the BBC doesn't have have an article showing that poorer children do worse at grammar schools. Thanks for clearing that up. | | | |
| Grammar Schools (n/t) on 08:32 - Sep 11 with 2031 views | ElHoop |
| Grammar Schools (n/t) on 13:23 - Sep 10 by Pommyhoop |
Completely with you bro on the lack of females at school. I was at an EX Grammar Catholic All Boys school. Hated it ..I mean HATED ..I didn't go at all in the 5th year.I swore my Son wouldn't go to an all boys school and he didn't ..My two girls went to good Catholic all girls schools tho .until we came over here ...  [Post edited 10 Sep 2016 13:53]
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The other two went to a mixed grammar but youngest got into boys only grammar and he didn't mind that at all. I guess it's down to what suits you. Thinking about that boys school, I can see why they've wanted to allow grammars to expand as it wasn't fair on them to be stuck with what they've got. This school had an unusual problem which probably wouldn't have arisen in many schools but it's indicative of the sort of stupid situation that can arise when you dictate that they can't expand.
This school would be one of the best performing schools in the country, but it didn't have a dining room or refectory as it's called at the school. It didn't have a dining room when he did the entrance exam and it hadn't had one for yonks. The boys ate at tables outside unless it was too cold or wet, at which point they could eat in the classroom if they wanted. I can't remember the precise details but I think this is pretty much it.
Anyhow, Ofsted comes along and it's outstanding in most respects, apart from the lack of a dining room. So Ofsted dictates that they must provide a proper dining room by such and such a date. So the fun starts.
Well building a dining room is expansion, so there's no finance from the local authority or central government. I don't think that expansion was actually ever forbidden, it just wasn't financed, which was the same thing. However, here Ofsted had deemed that the dining room be built, but there's no finance. So that's hard luck on the school and the fundraising process started, clearly aimed at parents although the old boys society organised the fundraising I think and contributed quite a lot. Anyhow, they're getting the money together and drawing up plans and eventually they start the planning process. So they've designed this refectory and presumably put it to the council and the council was happy with the design. However it's mostly a listed building so the plans then go to English Heritage or whoever it is that looks at these plans, and they aren't happy as some view or other is destroyed by the new refectory. So they have to completely redesign the building so that it's got loads of glass instead of brick and eventually English Heritage are happy and they can go back to the council with these new plans. However, the council isn't happy because the new plans fail on some heat efficiency regulation or the other, and so now there's a planning gridlock. Somehow or the other they manage to get both bodies happy - at more expense I think, and eventually it's built and paid for by the parents and old boys and it looks fantastic. Nobody is or was complaining about this, it's just how it was, but I think that the system did need to be changed and in that respect at least I welcome the plans.
Whether whole new grammar schools are a good idea, I doubt, and ideally we'd get a political consensus over the way forward and try to build something better, but at the moment there's not even a credible opposition party so looking at it logically the kids are likely to continue to suffer from a tangled cluttered and in many respects inadequate system. [Post edited 11 Sep 2016 8:34]
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| Grammar Schools on 09:17 - Sep 11 with 2011 views | ShotKneesHoop |
| Grammar Schools on 05:28 - Sep 11 by LadbrokeR |
I left in 1977. I had two years before it became Elthorne High. I remember the head teacher being Nobby Clarke and walks to games lessons at Blondin park. I remember a prefect called Birch who was years older that us but seemed enjoy picking on us. Of course all this changed in 1974 when the Grammar school changed to become a high school. |
Was Nobby Clark the history teacher we nicknamed "Barrel" because of his gut? How did he get a headship?. Blondin Park and Boston Manor Playing Fields were the sports grounds we had to walk to for cricket and football. Felt I was commuting even to play sport there; I couldn't wait to leave in 1963, it must have had some influence on me because I went to a PE College afterwards and was a PE teacher for 4 years before I had to get a job in sales to earn some proper money.
There was talk of Walpole becoming a comprehensive when I left in 1963, I'm amazed it lasted so long. Now I see it has been bulldozed into housing, so no surprise there. I don't have many happy memories of being a pupil there and like Clive I reckon I got on in life in spite of a grammar school education and not because of it. Mostly because I loved sport. |  |
| Why does it feel like R'SWiPe is still on the books? Yer Couldn't Make It Up.Well Done Me! |
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| Grammar Schools on 14:06 - Sep 11 with 1967 views | derbyhoop |
The problem with grammar schools (and I speak as someone who went to one) is not what happens to the bright students at 11(!!!), it's what happens to the rest, who, in many cases are written off as failures before their 12th birthday.
And, despite the protestations of the OP, they are socially divisive. Not for everyone affected but for far too many. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Grammar Schools on 15:56 - Sep 11 with 1946 views | nix |
| Grammar Schools on 08:15 - Sep 11 by martincook |
OK, so the BBC doesn't have have an article showing that poorer children do worse at grammar schools. Thanks for clearing that up. |
Actually I never said they did. I said they did worse overall in a grammar school system. This means that includes both those who do get in and that don't. But just puff up your ego a bit if you like. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 16:37 - Sep 11 with 1943 views | ShotKneesHoop |
A straw poll on this site shows that most of those who went to a grammar school in the past, didn't value what they got there. Which is a pretty damming argument against them, as it appears to benefit the small majority who went there, and pisses off the rest who got ignored there plus everyone who was rejected and went to a secondary modern.
It's elitist, out of date, divisive and unwanted by the majority of the population. | |
| Why does it feel like R'SWiPe is still on the books? Yer Couldn't Make It Up.Well Done Me! |
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| Grammar Schools on 18:12 - Sep 11 with 1925 views | Gloucs_R |
| Grammar Schools on 16:37 - Sep 11 by ShotKneesHoop |
A straw poll on this site shows that most of those who went to a grammar school in the past, didn't value what they got there. Which is a pretty damming argument against them, as it appears to benefit the small majority who went there, and pisses off the rest who got ignored there plus everyone who was rejected and went to a secondary modern.
It's elitist, out of date, divisive and unwanted by the majority of the population. |
How is it elitist?
Lets call the Top 10% of earners "rich"....who makes up the other 90% at Grammar schools?
My lad is 6 and in the top group for Maths and reading, is that unfair that they have put him into a different group based on ability? Or is it acceptable to divide based on ability....as long as its within the same school? |  |
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| Grammar Schools on 18:50 - Sep 11 with 1906 views | ShotKneesHoop |
| Grammar Schools on 18:12 - Sep 11 by Gloucs_R |
How is it elitist?
Lets call the Top 10% of earners "rich"....who makes up the other 90% at Grammar schools?
My lad is 6 and in the top group for Maths and reading, is that unfair that they have put him into a different group based on ability? Or is it acceptable to divide based on ability....as long as its within the same school? |
The rich top 10% would't dream of lowering themselves to send their little darlings to the state school system - that's why they pay for the privilege of sending them to public schools.
It's acceptable to divide within schools, its called streaming - or setting - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. It happens in most state schools.
It's elitist when the 20% are selected by one exam at a particular age in a child's life to get a perceived better academic standard of secondary education in a specific school - not on ability, but on where they live - and what background they come from - regardless of ability or attitude or effort. Add religion to that proposal- as the current government are doing - and you've got a toxic mix of potential divided communities. | |
| Why does it feel like R'SWiPe is still on the books? Yer Couldn't Make It Up.Well Done Me! |
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| Grammar Schools on 19:08 - Sep 11 with 1897 views | Gloucs_R |
| Grammar Schools on 18:50 - Sep 11 by ShotKneesHoop |
The rich top 10% would't dream of lowering themselves to send their little darlings to the state school system - that's why they pay for the privilege of sending them to public schools.
It's acceptable to divide within schools, its called streaming - or setting - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. It happens in most state schools.
It's elitist when the 20% are selected by one exam at a particular age in a child's life to get a perceived better academic standard of secondary education in a specific school - not on ability, but on where they live - and what background they come from - regardless of ability or attitude or effort. Add religion to that proposal- as the current government are doing - and you've got a toxic mix of potential divided communities. |
I'm a top 10% earner, my kids dont go to private school. A top 10% earner probably doesnt earn as much as you think.
Gloucester- the Grammar schools here accept kids from a pretty large catchment area. All the way from Stroud and Cheltenham (15 miles away).
Slough - I was in a minority as a white British pupil, 60% were asian.
I want my kids to go to Grammar school as I think it removes the little gobshites who dont care and their parents dont care...giving them a better chance at getting good grades. | |
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| Grammar Schools on 19:16 - Sep 11 with 1892 views | QPR_Jim |
| Grammar Schools on 18:50 - Sep 11 by ShotKneesHoop |
The rich top 10% would't dream of lowering themselves to send their little darlings to the state school system - that's why they pay for the privilege of sending them to public schools.
It's acceptable to divide within schools, its called streaming - or setting - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. It happens in most state schools.
It's elitist when the 20% are selected by one exam at a particular age in a child's life to get a perceived better academic standard of secondary education in a specific school - not on ability, but on where they live - and what background they come from - regardless of ability or attitude or effort. Add religion to that proposal- as the current government are doing - and you've got a toxic mix of potential divided communities. |
Not on ability? It's all about the ability to pass a test. I passed it despite coming from the worst primary school in the catchment area and my own teachers thinking i wasn't good enough, they had to take me.
The main advantage grammar schools have is that there are less disruptive students, in my experience there are still the odd poor teacher, generation old textbooks and bullying. But it was nothing like what NorthernR describes.
My sister didn't pass the 11+ and I don't think she felt like she was written off, she had other talents that were more creative and focused on them. I think the approach in our household was more that grammar school was hard to get into and that there was no shame in failing the test as most people would, that's the point of it.
I'm yet to be convinced that there is an alternative system being proposed that would bridge the gap between state school and private school for those that can't afford to pay for their education. The German system sounds ideal but I don't know if any party in the UK is proposing that. As it is we continue down a road where most of the people in power come from private schools and we don't seem to have a method of changing that. |  | | |
| Grammar Schools on 19:21 - Sep 11 with 2267 views | ShotKneesHoop |
| Grammar Schools on 19:08 - Sep 11 by Gloucs_R |
I'm a top 10% earner, my kids dont go to private school. A top 10% earner probably doesnt earn as much as you think.
Gloucester- the Grammar schools here accept kids from a pretty large catchment area. All the way from Stroud and Cheltenham (15 miles away).
Slough - I was in a minority as a white British pupil, 60% were asian.
I want my kids to go to Grammar school as I think it removes the little gobshites who dont care and their parents dont care...giving them a better chance at getting good grades. |
It's not just earnings - it's wealth - don't you understand the difference?
Classic - so you are writing off 80% of the population as parents who don't care. I think you should read again what Clive and plenty of others who have commented on this board who went through the divisive selection system experienced at a grammar school. It is divisive - and it doesn't prepare you for the real world. Three years of Latin didn't help me in any of the jobs I've done. We won't be able to compete with other countries who don't base their education system on class the way that Britain does. | |
| Why does it feel like R'SWiPe is still on the books? Yer Couldn't Make It Up.Well Done Me! |
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| Grammar Schools on 19:27 - Sep 11 with 2257 views | Gloucs_R |
| Grammar Schools on 19:16 - Sep 11 by QPR_Jim |
Not on ability? It's all about the ability to pass a test. I passed it despite coming from the worst primary school in the catchment area and my own teachers thinking i wasn't good enough, they had to take me.
The main advantage grammar schools have is that there are less disruptive students, in my experience there are still the odd poor teacher, generation old textbooks and bullying. But it was nothing like what NorthernR describes.
My sister didn't pass the 11+ and I don't think she felt like she was written off, she had other talents that were more creative and focused on them. I think the approach in our household was more that grammar school was hard to get into and that there was no shame in failing the test as most people would, that's the point of it.
I'm yet to be convinced that there is an alternative system being proposed that would bridge the gap between state school and private school for those that can't afford to pay for their education. The German system sounds ideal but I don't know if any party in the UK is proposing that. As it is we continue down a road where most of the people in power come from private schools and we don't seem to have a method of changing that. |
Agree, made a similar point earlier in the thread....the Secondary schools should have the ability to teach in a different way and a difference syllabus.
GCSE in Building, Carpentry, Mechanics, Plumbing, General DIY, Catering, Creative Design, Nursing and IT should be considered as alternatives to Geography, History, Languages, etc.
Wish I would have been taught some of those skills!!! I'm useless at DIY. | |
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| Grammar Schools on 19:30 - Sep 11 with 2255 views | Gloucs_R |
| Grammar Schools on 19:21 - Sep 11 by ShotKneesHoop |
It's not just earnings - it's wealth - don't you understand the difference?
Classic - so you are writing off 80% of the population as parents who don't care. I think you should read again what Clive and plenty of others who have commented on this board who went through the divisive selection system experienced at a grammar school. It is divisive - and it doesn't prepare you for the real world. Three years of Latin didn't help me in any of the jobs I've done. We won't be able to compete with other countries who don't base their education system on class the way that Britain does. |
I didn't mention wealth, I was taking about earnings!!
If 80% of the populations parents dont give a monkey then we are screwed my friend!! But that isn't what I said.
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| Grammar Schools on 19:41 - Sep 11 with 2249 views | ShotKneesHoop |
| Grammar Schools on 19:30 - Sep 11 by Gloucs_R |
I didn't mention wealth, I was taking about earnings!!
If 80% of the populations parents dont give a monkey then we are screwed my friend!! But that isn't what I said.
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"I want my kids to go to Grammar school as I think it removes the little gobshites who dont care and their parents dont care...." That's what you said, so that's 80% of the population damned because they are the ones who are categorised as such.
The rich don't worry about earnings, because they have wealth. Wealth means you have the opportunity to buy an education - or move house to get one. Most will have no choice.
And if you say you are in the top 10% of earners, then you have a long way to go to catch the establishment up. They are considerably richer than yo. | |
| Why does it feel like R'SWiPe is still on the books? Yer Couldn't Make It Up.Well Done Me! |
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| Grammar Schools on 19:45 - Sep 11 with 2247 views | QPR_Jim |
| Grammar Schools on 19:41 - Sep 11 by ShotKneesHoop |
"I want my kids to go to Grammar school as I think it removes the little gobshites who dont care and their parents dont care...." That's what you said, so that's 80% of the population damned because they are the ones who are categorised as such.
The rich don't worry about earnings, because they have wealth. Wealth means you have the opportunity to buy an education - or move house to get one. Most will have no choice.
And if you say you are in the top 10% of earners, then you have a long way to go to catch the establishment up. They are considerably richer than yo. |
So if there were more grammar schools so you didn't need to move house to get into one would it still be elitist?
Btw plenty of affordable houses and grammar schools in Medway should anyone feel the need to move to get into one. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 19:48 - Sep 11 with 2242 views | QPR_Jim |
| Grammar Schools on 19:27 - Sep 11 by Gloucs_R |
Agree, made a similar point earlier in the thread....the Secondary schools should have the ability to teach in a different way and a difference syllabus.
GCSE in Building, Carpentry, Mechanics, Plumbing, General DIY, Catering, Creative Design, Nursing and IT should be considered as alternatives to Geography, History, Languages, etc.
Wish I would have been taught some of those skills!!! I'm useless at DIY. |
Agree about the diy, would have been much more useful than the Latin they tried to teach me. Come to think about it, it would have been more useful than most of the languages they tried to teach me as it was hard enough for me to learn English. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 19:51 - Sep 11 with 2241 views | Gloucs_R |
| Grammar Schools on 19:41 - Sep 11 by ShotKneesHoop |
"I want my kids to go to Grammar school as I think it removes the little gobshites who dont care and their parents dont care...." That's what you said, so that's 80% of the population damned because they are the ones who are categorised as such.
The rich don't worry about earnings, because they have wealth. Wealth means you have the opportunity to buy an education - or move house to get one. Most will have no choice.
And if you say you are in the top 10% of earners, then you have a long way to go to catch the establishment up. They are considerably richer than yo. |
Where has this 80% number come from? (genuine question)
I've based my experiences of Grammar schools on growing up in Slough and now living in Gloucester. As far as I am aware, it was an even balance between comps and Grammar in Slough. I suspect its the same in Gloucester.
Before I moved to Slough I was in Uxbridge....I applied for 3 good comp schools but was out of the catchment for all. So was offered schools my mum didnt want me to go to. Hence why we packed up and headed for Slough. So actually being no Grammar schools didnt help at all, everyone still applied for the good schools but only those living closest got to go there. | |
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| Grammar Schools on 20:26 - Sep 11 with 2229 views | ShotKneesHoop |
| Grammar Schools on 19:51 - Sep 11 by Gloucs_R |
Where has this 80% number come from? (genuine question)
I've based my experiences of Grammar schools on growing up in Slough and now living in Gloucester. As far as I am aware, it was an even balance between comps and Grammar in Slough. I suspect its the same in Gloucester.
Before I moved to Slough I was in Uxbridge....I applied for 3 good comp schools but was out of the catchment for all. So was offered schools my mum didnt want me to go to. Hence why we packed up and headed for Slough. So actually being no Grammar schools didnt help at all, everyone still applied for the good schools but only those living closest got to go there. |
11 plus meant that the 20 % who passed it went to Grammar School, and 80% went to Secondary Mods. It's called Maths. | |
| Why does it feel like R'SWiPe is still on the books? Yer Couldn't Make It Up.Well Done Me! |
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| Grammar Schools on 20:27 - Sep 11 with 2226 views | derbyhoop |
| Grammar Schools on 11:23 - Sep 9 by BrianMcCarthy |
I read now that Theresa May has said that "selective schools could make the education system more inclusive".
These Tory politicos don't waste time when they get in, do they? |
I read that quote 3 times. And,no, it still doesn't make sense. | |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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