| Grammar Schools 22:17 - Sep 8 with 22074 views | texasranger |
I can't help feeling that much of the currently fashionable condemnation of grammar schools is based on two false premises; that they are socially divisive, and that kids who failed the old 11-plus were branded as 'failures'. I'm an old geezer now who went to a boys only grammar school in the early 1950's but we had all sorts there, bright academics through to some right tearaways. I was just a boy from a working class family but I enjoyed and benefited from grammar school though not enough to go to university, doing two years National service instead, but my mates outside school were a mixture of Secondary Modern, Technical and Grammar school boys. We got along fine and theTech and S/Modern boys went on to become printers, plumbers, builders and engineers, all of whom I suspect made more money than I did. Surely any school regardless of type will grade kids by ability and attempting to force kids of different backgrounds to socialise will not work. Finally, condemning today's grammar schools on account of the number of kids getting free school meals seems totally irrelevant. I realise I may be the only surviving Rangers supporter who went to a grammar school so if I get any response I expect it to be unfavourable. No matter. Come on you RRRRRRRRRR's ! |  | | |  |
| Grammar Schools on 11:06 - Sep 9 with 2350 views | robith |
| Grammar Schools on 11:03 - Sep 9 by ElHoop |
I think that one 'point of the conversation' could be why there's still inequality and kids on the 'scrap heap' in areas without grammar schools, if that's OK with you. |
Why is there inequality?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism |  | | |
| Grammar Schools on 11:09 - Sep 9 with 2345 views | londonscottish |
I went to a decent primary and an average comp in Scotland and did OK in the end. I did waste the whole of the first year at secondary school waiting for the kids from the less-good primaries to catch up but from 2nd year on we were streamed and the more motivated kids thrived.
My boy in now in a London comp and is doing OK but the lack of streaming mystifies me. He's just gone into his second year there and is stuck with 7 or 8 kids who quite frankly don't give a fc*k and p*ss about for a solid 10 minutes of each of the lessons whenever they can.
I hope it all works out but the jury's out for now.
Having said that madly-academic schooling is also not the be all and end all either. Holland Park seems to have turned into an exam machine and a mate of mine has just pulled his kids out as they were narrowly missing the grade and were having their confidence well and truly ground out of them.
My solution? IMHO there's nothing wrong with state schools for keeping kids grounded and rounded but let's get the streaming back to reflect the different aspirations, abilities and attitude of the various kids.
Best of both worlds? |  |
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| Grammar Schools on 11:10 - Sep 9 with 2342 views | LadbrokeR |
| Grammar Schools on 10:33 - Sep 9 by stevec |
Some heartfelt stuff on here but it shows that people still manage to make a path despite the setbacks of schooling.
Was fortunate enough to go to Grammar school and, as LadbrokeR mentioned, mine was also 'converted' midway through to a Comprehensive by the c nts in the Labour party and ILEA. One of those who had to learn through hard graft rather than natural ability so the resulting influx of shit left wing teachers put paid to any grander thoughts.
Never understood peoples criticism of grammar schools. Sure the age thing is part lottery but if the changeover from primary to secondary is at 11 years old, what else to do? You have to start somewhere.
If I can throw a football analogy in, if your son was a decent player at 11 and a top professional club asked him to come train and play at their academy, would that be wrong? Would you insist on equal opportunity and keep him playing for the local sunday league side? Of course not. No one knows if he'll go onto being a pro or laying bricks but each and every one of us would be saying 'go for it'. Quite why it's considered somehow elitist to give the same opportunities for someone gifted academically rather than sporting is a bit strange.
Personally i'd close down every private school at the end of term and open them up as Grammar schools in the new term. Leave the payers paying and the new years come in under the Grammar system. If anything needs to be condemned it's the fckin disgrace that you can buy your offspring privilege, the foulest social division of all. |
Steve the point is that education is mandatory. All young people are required by law to attend be it mainstream or alternative provision previously called pupil referal units. Infact the local authpority have the power to take parents to court for non attendance. Football is a sport or a leisure pursuit that people can take or leave. I dont think that you are comparing like with like. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 11:11 - Sep 9 with 2338 views | Konk |
Clive, your school sounds on a par with mine; although I spent five years largely fannying around and had a great time.
We had something like 200+ kids in my year, around a dozen did A-levels and 6 went to university/poly. I was in the top group for everything through school, and yet no-one ever mentioned A-levels, university etc, and because my parents weren’t from that sort of background, I just left school at 16 like all my mates, with the vague ambition of getting a job in an office. My old school still comes bottom of the local authorities league table, so it’s nice to know it’s still a centre of academic excellence.
My wife, by contrast, went to a Grammar school in Warwickshire, where 3 kids in the entire year didn’t go to university and kids knew from an early age that they needed get good grades to get on. I had plenty of bright friends at secondary school who left at 16 with 4-5 GCSEs and I can’t help but wonder how they’d have fared at a school where you were expected to succeed rather than expected to leave at the earliest opportunity, hopefully without having caused too much trouble during your five year stretch.
I’ve got no complaints about how my life’s panned out to date — I’ve always been a bit lazy, I’ve generally messed about rather than applying myself, so it’s going about as well as could be expected in terms of career/earnings etc, but if there’s one thing I envy a bit from my circle of friends, it’s the fact that when I was young it never occurred to me that I could do something more interesting as an adult if I applied myself and had a bit of direction. I could have been the first astronaut in my family, for fu ck’s sake.
The nearest “outstanding” comprehensive school to us now, has a catchment area that is overwhelmingly made up of £1.2m+ 3 bedroom houses and £700K 2 bedroom flats, so it’s effectively a private school anyway. At least if it was a grammar, working class kids a mile or two away would have a chance of getting in, although as nix says, the private tutor boom has really changed things in that regard. |  |
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| Grammar Schools on 11:11 - Sep 9 with 2337 views | ElHoop |
That's part of the problem in fact. Education has become a 'political concept' for so long that nobody much cares about what actually goes on in a classroom. It's actually about a teacher and pupils - everything else is bollocks. |  | | |
| Grammar Schools on 11:14 - Sep 9 with 2331 views | LadbrokeR |
Where education is concerned this carries a lot of weight.
If anything needs to be condemned it's the fckin disgrace that you can buy your offspring privilege, the foulest social division of all. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 11:18 - Sep 9 with 2321 views | stevec |
| Grammar Schools on 10:53 - Sep 9 by nadera78 |
Every single piece of research into Grammar schools comes to the same conclusion - they entrench inequality. A handful of poorer kids get to to go to one, mix with an overwhelmingly middle class group, and get resources thrown at them. Everyone else meanwhile is left on the scrap heap.
The evidence really is overwhelming on this matter to the point that it shouldn't even be a topic of conversation. |
You may actually have hit on something here.
Scrapheap schools.
In my estimation, in a class of 30 it only needs 3 or so to completely disrupt the entire lesson. So create an elite 10% of schools for the disruptive. Padded walls, mass prescriptions of ritalin, the works and they can go gaga under the watchful eye of left wing Utopians such as your good self. Everyone's a winner. |  | | |
| Grammar Schools on 11:20 - Sep 9 with 2316 views | SimonJames |
The best thing about my all boys Grammar School in King's Lynn was that when I got to the 5th year it changed to being a comprehensive and they let girls in.
Since I absolutely hated every minute of school (except games) I think I would have gone completely out of my mind if it wasn't for that timely influx of skirt.
Academically I got virtually all B's for my o'levels, whereas my middle son (who goes to a comprehensive near Kingston) last month got virtually all A's for his GCSEs. Mind you, he's gay, so I guess he doesn't need the feminine distraction. |  |
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| Grammar Schools on 11:21 - Sep 9 with 2313 views | Northernr |
This 'equality' stuff winds me up a bit to be honest. If it meant everybody must be given the same excellent education then that's great. What it actually means in practice is everybody gets the same average/poor one. Kids that don't give a sht, from a long line of people who don't give a sht, treated the same and educated the same as bright kids who have ambition and want to do something with their life? Why, exactly?
There were kids at my school that didn't give a sht, about anything. Their parents didn't give a sht, they didn't give a sht, they just wanted to be as disruptive and evil as they possibly could and get out at the end of the day. And while it's absolutely lovely in theory that if given the same education as everybody else at secondary school they'll suddenly discover a world of university and opportunity, it's actually bolox. They wanted to leave school at 16 and work on the steel works or in Tesco like everybody else, stay in Scunthorpe like everybody else, have loads of kids like everybody else and that's exactly what they all did. And in the meantime they wanted to bully and beat any individuality or talent or passion out the other kids.
For those of us who wanted to get some sort of education and get the fck out of that town as quickly as possible, they made our lives hell to the point where going to school wasn't actually even that safe day to day.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |
| Grammar Schools on 11:23 - Sep 9 with 2309 views | BrianMcCarthy |
I read now that Theresa May has said that "selective schools could make the education system more inclusive".
These Tory politicos don't waste time when they get in, do they? |  |
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| Grammar Schools on 11:25 - Sep 9 with 2298 views | Konk |
| Grammar Schools on 11:18 - Sep 9 by stevec |
You may actually have hit on something here.
Scrapheap schools.
In my estimation, in a class of 30 it only needs 3 or so to completely disrupt the entire lesson. So create an elite 10% of schools for the disruptive. Padded walls, mass prescriptions of ritalin, the works and they can go gaga under the watchful eye of left wing Utopians such as your good self. Everyone's a winner. |
We had kids who were always planning to go and work with their Dads in either the Trades or local factories, and they spent most lessons being as disruptive as possible, which made life Hell for the poor teachers and meant that you couldn't learn, even if you wanted to. I think everyone would have been happier if from say 14 onwards, they'd been doing something along the lines of building college/mechanics rather than throwing chairs at Mr Adams in History or throwing Mark Little's pencil case contents, blazer and shoes out of the window every single lesson. I'd keep Maths and English up all the way through. | |
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| Grammar Schools on 11:28 - Sep 9 with 2286 views | LadbrokeR |
| Grammar Schools on 11:20 - Sep 9 by SimonJames |
The best thing about my all boys Grammar School in King's Lynn was that when I got to the 5th year it changed to being a comprehensive and they let girls in.
Since I absolutely hated every minute of school (except games) I think I would have gone completely out of my mind if it wasn't for that timely influx of skirt.
Academically I got virtually all B's for my o'levels, whereas my middle son (who goes to a comprehensive near Kingston) last month got virtually all A's for his GCSEs. Mind you, he's gay, so I guess he doesn't need the feminine distraction. |
Oh yes the girl thing. I spoke to my nephew yesterday who has just started his senior school and asked him how things were and he said alright in a matter or fact tone. I then said are there any good looking girls and he replied yes there are 4 possibles.
He has been there 4 days. The benefits of coeducation. | | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 11:30 - Sep 9 with 2277 views | BostonR |
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| Grammar Schools on 11:30 - Sep 9 with 2279 views | Northernr |
Apropos of nothing I've just looked the place up and it's been completely bulldozed, entirely rebuilt and called the Outwood Academy now, and Ofsted say it's a 'good school'.
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| Grammar Schools on 11:42 - Sep 9 with 2052 views | wrinklyhoop |
| Grammar Schools on 11:21 - Sep 9 by Northernr |
This 'equality' stuff winds me up a bit to be honest. If it meant everybody must be given the same excellent education then that's great. What it actually means in practice is everybody gets the same average/poor one. Kids that don't give a sht, from a long line of people who don't give a sht, treated the same and educated the same as bright kids who have ambition and want to do something with their life? Why, exactly?
There were kids at my school that didn't give a sht, about anything. Their parents didn't give a sht, they didn't give a sht, they just wanted to be as disruptive and evil as they possibly could and get out at the end of the day. And while it's absolutely lovely in theory that if given the same education as everybody else at secondary school they'll suddenly discover a world of university and opportunity, it's actually bolox. They wanted to leave school at 16 and work on the steel works or in Tesco like everybody else, stay in Scunthorpe like everybody else, have loads of kids like everybody else and that's exactly what they all did. And in the meantime they wanted to bully and beat any individuality or talent or passion out the other kids.
For those of us who wanted to get some sort of education and get the fck out of that town as quickly as possible, they made our lives hell to the point where going to school wasn't actually even that safe day to day.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Ain't that the truth! Parental influence is a huge factor, which the PC brigade generally choose to ignore. Personally very glad you made it out Northern, or we wouldn't have your magnificent prose to enjoy  | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 11:47 - Sep 9 with 2044 views | Dorse |
In some German states they still have the tri-partite school system of Technical, Hauptschule and Gymnasium. Every year, they promote or relegate students based on their performance. If you are failing in 3 subjects you're out and replaced by someone who has put in a shift in the other school.
Weirdly, it works. Behaviour at the top school (Gymnasium) is never an issue because everyone is working the collective ar$e off to stay there. Ditto Hauptschule where everyone is trying to reach Gymnasium. The Tech school offers more vocational and work-based education but you can still go from Tech to Gymnasium if you are able.
This model actually offers social mobility and rewards aptitude, attitude and ability. I don't see the latest bright idea from our political overlords offering the same.
As for me, I'm well out of it. This earth shattering, paradigm altering, once in a lifetime panacea for education will be discredited the same as all the rest at which point everyone who has been through it will be told that what they did was meaningless as the new idea is so much better. Sunrise, sunset.
Bunch of cock-juggling thundercunce, the lot of them. |  |
| 'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!' |
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| Grammar Schools on 11:54 - Sep 9 with 2022 views | BostonR |
All Grammar schools do is encourage mildly rich, middle-class families, to move into an area that has one (consequently house prices go through the roof), pay for private tutoring and try to squeeze their way onto the governing body. They are elitist, they encourage the class divide and have nothing to do with education - it is all politics.
Whilst not being his biggest fan, Nick Clegg has started to spill the beans on his time as Deputy Prime Minister and some of the positions and rhetoric taken by Cameron and Osborne are outrageous. It just reinforces the Tory "nasty party" tag and confirms their absolute disdain for the working man.
It beggars belief that we still allow such elite institutions to flourish which only encourages the "Eton" ruling class to strut their stuff on our daily lives. Grammar schools are not the problem, especially when we openly allow the elite private schools in this country such as Eton, Harrow etc to hold charitable status! Yes, they avoid paying VAT and other taxes which you and I have to pay.
We need to dismantle the whole show, private, faith and the state system and take control away from politicians and the wealthy ruling class who by enlarge are fuking idiots. Give control, money and empowerment to a non-political body to chart a 50-100 yr plan to improve our education and make it work for all abilities and not just a chosen few. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 11:57 - Sep 9 with 2015 views | stevec |
| Grammar Schools on 11:47 - Sep 9 by Dorse |
In some German states they still have the tri-partite school system of Technical, Hauptschule and Gymnasium. Every year, they promote or relegate students based on their performance. If you are failing in 3 subjects you're out and replaced by someone who has put in a shift in the other school.
Weirdly, it works. Behaviour at the top school (Gymnasium) is never an issue because everyone is working the collective ar$e off to stay there. Ditto Hauptschule where everyone is trying to reach Gymnasium. The Tech school offers more vocational and work-based education but you can still go from Tech to Gymnasium if you are able.
This model actually offers social mobility and rewards aptitude, attitude and ability. I don't see the latest bright idea from our political overlords offering the same.
As for me, I'm well out of it. This earth shattering, paradigm altering, once in a lifetime panacea for education will be discredited the same as all the rest at which point everyone who has been through it will be told that what they did was meaningless as the new idea is so much better. Sunrise, sunset.
Bunch of cock-juggling thundercunce, the lot of them. |
What a great idea and gives those kids who are being held back some light at the end of the tunnel.
Wouldn't work here though, the PC brigade would call it elitist, teachers on strike.
What do we want? 'Fck up your chances' When do we want it? 'NOW' | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 11:59 - Sep 9 with 2010 views | kropotkin41 |
There's two conversations going on here, both of which are very interesting. The first is about selective schools and non-selective schools and the effects of having such a system in place, and I don't see how a valid criticism of a northern, or any other comprehensive should lead to the conclusion that the solution is to have grammar schools. The problem with that is that selection at 11 or 12 doesn't mean you get schools full of kids who all want to play the academic game and not bully one another or those who want to study or be different. Bullying is rife at grammar schools, Clive, or at least it was at mine.
The second conversation is about education in general, a much bigger topic, and absolutely one that our society such as it is needs to address. I'm not going to get into it here, because I'm supposed to be doing something productive, but grammars or comprehensives in the UK, neither seem to deliver and Government after Government tinkers around with education without improving it very much. In my opinion we should be looking at the very best models, places like Finland for example, we should be asking fundamental questions about what education is for and whether it is actually the same as schooling, and above all we should be looking at making education available lifelong for everybody. |  |
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| Grammar Schools on 12:06 - Sep 9 with 1997 views | Discodroids |
I think it should be compulsory for all politicians to live above paddy powers in green street , east ham for 6 months with their children , who should also use the local school , so they might at least have a f ucking clue what their talking about. [Post edited 9 Sep 2016 12:07]
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| Grammar Schools on 12:09 - Sep 9 with 1987 views | BostonR |
It should not come down to just money!
What price a fair education for all or should we just go on the basis that we test children at 5yrs and they do not make the grade we throw them in the poor-house and use the rest of the money to educate the ones who pass the test?
It is not about education anymore - it is all politics! | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 12:19 - Sep 9 with 1979 views | oldmeadoniansR |
| Grammar Schools on 00:16 - Sep 9 by QPR_Jim |
It's funny because without a vociferous mother I wouldn't have had the chance to sit the 11+ because my teachers at the time thought it would be a waste of time. Anyway my mum talked them around and I was the only boy from my school that passed that year, which I'm not sure my teacher was too happy about.
I definitely benefited from the grammar school education improving year on year in a way that I think was unexpected of me. As I benefited from the system I find it hard to argue against it as I would want others to benefit in the same way although I do see how it can be unfair. |
I may have mistaken identity but I thought you attended Latymer School. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 12:34 - Sep 9 with 2555 views | bob566 |
| Grammar Schools on 11:21 - Sep 9 by Northernr |
This 'equality' stuff winds me up a bit to be honest. If it meant everybody must be given the same excellent education then that's great. What it actually means in practice is everybody gets the same average/poor one. Kids that don't give a sht, from a long line of people who don't give a sht, treated the same and educated the same as bright kids who have ambition and want to do something with their life? Why, exactly?
There were kids at my school that didn't give a sht, about anything. Their parents didn't give a sht, they didn't give a sht, they just wanted to be as disruptive and evil as they possibly could and get out at the end of the day. And while it's absolutely lovely in theory that if given the same education as everybody else at secondary school they'll suddenly discover a world of university and opportunity, it's actually bolox. They wanted to leave school at 16 and work on the steel works or in Tesco like everybody else, stay in Scunthorpe like everybody else, have loads of kids like everybody else and that's exactly what they all did. And in the meantime they wanted to bully and beat any individuality or talent or passion out the other kids.
For those of us who wanted to get some sort of education and get the fck out of that town as quickly as possible, they made our lives hell to the point where going to school wasn't actually even that safe day to day.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
the equality stuff sounds awful.
why couldn't the classes be streamed Clive?
I'm based over in Ireland so not familiar with your education system.
But why couldn't they get the eager bright ones and put them in say 1A and the good ones in say 1A2 and the average ones in 1A3 and then the underperformers but still trying in say 1B and the just thick but not misbehaving in say 1B2 and then the out and outright messers who just want to disrupt in say 1C and then the nasty bullies etc in 1C2 etc
Is that again the law over there or something. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 12:35 - Sep 9 with 2555 views | stevec |
| Grammar Schools on 11:59 - Sep 9 by kropotkin41 |
There's two conversations going on here, both of which are very interesting. The first is about selective schools and non-selective schools and the effects of having such a system in place, and I don't see how a valid criticism of a northern, or any other comprehensive should lead to the conclusion that the solution is to have grammar schools. The problem with that is that selection at 11 or 12 doesn't mean you get schools full of kids who all want to play the academic game and not bully one another or those who want to study or be different. Bullying is rife at grammar schools, Clive, or at least it was at mine.
The second conversation is about education in general, a much bigger topic, and absolutely one that our society such as it is needs to address. I'm not going to get into it here, because I'm supposed to be doing something productive, but grammars or comprehensives in the UK, neither seem to deliver and Government after Government tinkers around with education without improving it very much. In my opinion we should be looking at the very best models, places like Finland for example, we should be asking fundamental questions about what education is for and whether it is actually the same as schooling, and above all we should be looking at making education available lifelong for everybody. |
The issue is those in the education system are not prepared to tackle the real problem, disruptive classes.
As much as I stand up for Grammar schools there would be no need for them if the overwhelming majority of kids were allowed to get on with their studies. If Governments had the gumption to set up what I described jokingly as 'Scrapheap' schools, somewhere to remove the disruptive and allow probably 90-95% of kids who want to learn to do so, not only would it benefit the masses but teachers might actually get the chance to prove they can teach. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 12:46 - Sep 9 with 2528 views | A40Bosh |
| Grammar Schools on 11:54 - Sep 9 by BostonR |
All Grammar schools do is encourage mildly rich, middle-class families, to move into an area that has one (consequently house prices go through the roof), pay for private tutoring and try to squeeze their way onto the governing body. They are elitist, they encourage the class divide and have nothing to do with education - it is all politics.
Whilst not being his biggest fan, Nick Clegg has started to spill the beans on his time as Deputy Prime Minister and some of the positions and rhetoric taken by Cameron and Osborne are outrageous. It just reinforces the Tory "nasty party" tag and confirms their absolute disdain for the working man.
It beggars belief that we still allow such elite institutions to flourish which only encourages the "Eton" ruling class to strut their stuff on our daily lives. Grammar schools are not the problem, especially when we openly allow the elite private schools in this country such as Eton, Harrow etc to hold charitable status! Yes, they avoid paying VAT and other taxes which you and I have to pay.
We need to dismantle the whole show, private, faith and the state system and take control away from politicians and the wealthy ruling class who by enlarge are fuking idiots. Give control, money and empowerment to a non-political body to chart a 50-100 yr plan to improve our education and make it work for all abilities and not just a chosen few. |
"All Grammar schools do is encourage mildly rich, middle-class families, to move into an area that has one (consequently house prices go through the roof), pay for private tutoring and try to squeeze their way onto the governing body. They are elitist, they encourage the class divide and have nothing to do with education - it is all politics. "
The start and sentiment of this paragraph is correct, but for me the thing is it is not the "mildly rich" "middle-class families", there is no real middle-class any more. You've either got money or you haven't. This is about the "aspiring" class basically having "free" education removed from them - albeit removed by parental preference or choice.
In theory from an educational perspective there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the concept of Grammar Schools but what they have morphed in to is a semi-private school system where although the school aren't charging you annual fees, you are probably paying in excess of £25-£30 per hour once or twice a week during primary school starting in Yr 4 or Yr 5 to get you through the 11+. However, it then transpires that once your little darlings have been offered a place they are then in a class of 25-30 peers, some of whom are naturally bright and need no additional help and then you realize that to keep up with rest of the class you have to continue tutoring them throughout the secondary years so they end up getting the same number of GCSE A*-C grades as they probably would have done had they gone to a semi decent comprehensive instead.
Those parents who are aspiring to better themselves normally ensure that the same work ethic is instilled either by encouragement or by the whip and it is those pupils the comprehensive schools become more reliant on retaining on their books to ensure that their results are maintained.
Because here's the thing. Teaching in Grammar schools is not necessarily better in every Grammar school than every comprehensive. It doesn't have to be. In Grammar schools and the top state schools it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. Your results are good, the aspiring parents want their kids to go there, they work their kids, and when they struggle often they booster it by private tuition. So through a combination of the raw material coming in who want to learn and those who are not the natural A* achievers but have parents who can either easily afford to or are willing to make sacrifices to afford to, the results are often better despite some woeful teachers and teaching - but they get away with it and it is masked by throwing money at private tuition.
So if the law changes and more Grammar schools open up, all the government will be doing is effectively putting in a system of 2nd rate free education for the can't affords or can't be bothered and a part-parental funded supposedly better level of education resulting in more social and economic upheaval in the areas where the Grammar schools are which pushes house prices up as parents try to move nearer to the "better schools"
The government are simply using the Grammar school system to appear to be improving education for all, but all they will be doing is widening the gap between those who have and those who have not, because if you want the best education for your children then either directly or indirectly you're gonna pay for it. |  |
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