| The SNP Budget Fiasco 11:39 - Dec 4 with 1422 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
Plenty of coverage, but at the heart of the problem is;
Devolved social security spending has jumped from £192m in 2018/19 to £5.1bn in 2023/24, according to the Fraser of Allander Institute. |  |
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 14:44 - Dec 4 with 1147 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
If that figure is accurate it’s absolutely insane. |  |
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 14:54 - Dec 4 with 1140 views | Whiterockin |
Good job that they are not devolved in Wales, Westminster just keeps paying the bill. |  | | |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 15:57 - Dec 4 with 1109 views | majorraglan |
Westminster has devolved big parts of the social security budget from London to Scotland, it’s not a case of the budget going up by £5bn in 5 years. They said, the amount spent on social security has gone up across the UK. [Post edited 4 Dec 15:58]
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 16:23 - Dec 4 with 1072 views | pencoedjack |
I see they have scrapped the two-child benefit cap. |  | | |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 17:17 - Dec 4 with 1017 views | Kilkennyjack |
The uk national debt is today
The total amount the uk government owes is called the national debt. It is currently about £2.8 trillion - or £2,800,000,000,000.
Scotland and Wales need out of this basket case economy. |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 17:25 - Dec 4 with 1005 views | raynor94 |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 17:17 - Dec 4 by Kilkennyjack |
The uk national debt is today
The total amount the uk government owes is called the national debt. It is currently about £2.8 trillion - or £2,800,000,000,000.
Scotland and Wales need out of this basket case economy. |
The irony in your last paragraph is overwhelming.
Remind us again how these 2 nations NHS are doing |  |
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 17:27 - Dec 4 with 998 views | Whiterockin |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 17:17 - Dec 4 by Kilkennyjack |
The uk national debt is today
The total amount the uk government owes is called the national debt. It is currently about £2.8 trillion - or £2,800,000,000,000.
Scotland and Wales need out of this basket case economy. |
Then surely we would have to pay our share. | | | |
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 19:15 - Dec 4 with 933 views | majorraglan |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 16:23 - Dec 4 by pencoedjack |
I see they have scrapped the two-child benefit cap. |
The decision to lift it is a decision for Scotland, but if I were Starmer I’d ensure no extra resources were provided to them and I’d tell the SNP it’s your call, but you have to fund it from your existing budget. | | | |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 19:41 - Dec 4 with 912 views | SullutaCreturned |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 17:27 - Dec 4 by Whiterockin |
Then surely we would have to pay our share. |
Yep, we surely would and seeing as how, officially, we are running at a deficit, just how would we manage that?
We are approx 15% of the Uk or around 420 billion, we'd have to borrow that (and who would lend to us? Then on top of that we'd have to borrow the money to keep the country running. The Senedd budget is 23 billion and they say it's not enough, hiow much of that goes to service a debt of 420 billion, just on the interest?
Other opinions are available obviously and knowing which side of the argument is right is next to impossible unless we go indy and enough of us (currently) are indy sceptics to keep the status quo in place. | | | |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 21:13 - Dec 4 with 878 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 19:41 - Dec 4 by SullutaCreturned |
Yep, we surely would and seeing as how, officially, we are running at a deficit, just how would we manage that?
We are approx 15% of the Uk or around 420 billion, we'd have to borrow that (and who would lend to us? Then on top of that we'd have to borrow the money to keep the country running. The Senedd budget is 23 billion and they say it's not enough, hiow much of that goes to service a debt of 420 billion, just on the interest?
Other opinions are available obviously and knowing which side of the argument is right is next to impossible unless we go indy and enough of us (currently) are indy sceptics to keep the status quo in place. |
Guilt yields are above 4 percent. Even at that rate the £420 billion would cost around 17 Billion. I've no idea what rate you'd have to pay to raise money in the circumstances you describe. | |
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 23:08 - Dec 4 with 817 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 17:17 - Dec 4 by Kilkennyjack |
The uk national debt is today
The total amount the uk government owes is called the national debt. It is currently about £2.8 trillion - or £2,800,000,000,000.
Scotland and Wales need out of this basket case economy. |
Nation debt of France is 3.4 trillion . Are you seriously suggesting Wales and Scotland would be better of giving up their Sovereignty to EU and missing out on the huge UK subsidies they get under the Barnett formula. | |
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 08:45 - Dec 5 with 741 views | Kilkennyjack |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 23:08 - Dec 4 by felixstowe_jack |
Nation debt of France is 3.4 trillion . Are you seriously suggesting Wales and Scotland would be better of giving up their Sovereignty to EU and missing out on the huge UK subsidies they get under the Barnett formula. |
Please try to keep up.
Even Mr Barnett stated that the Barnett formula is not fit for purpose.
Its not based on need.
John has already explained to you that Wales can pay its way, confirmed by academics.
For example Tesco does business in Wales but its business taxes are ALL counted as England, zero for Wales. This greatly distorts the economic realities if you multiply by all such companies.
Why have Tata been allowed to shaft Port Talbot only to invest in Moggs Somerset ? A bit strange that one.
Put simply Wales and Scotland are never priorities for Westmonster. | |
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 08:51 - Dec 5 with 737 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 08:45 - Dec 5 by Kilkennyjack |
Please try to keep up.
Even Mr Barnett stated that the Barnett formula is not fit for purpose.
Its not based on need.
John has already explained to you that Wales can pay its way, confirmed by academics.
For example Tesco does business in Wales but its business taxes are ALL counted as England, zero for Wales. This greatly distorts the economic realities if you multiply by all such companies.
Why have Tata been allowed to shaft Port Talbot only to invest in Moggs Somerset ? A bit strange that one.
Put simply Wales and Scotland are never priorities for Westmonster. |
Do keep up Wales recives billions in Subsidies from the UK government and have done so for many years . They of course receive their share of corporation tax to pay for the NHS in Wales. I agree with you the Senedd let Tata steel Port Talbot with their zero carbon emissions policies. They stopped all Coal mining in Wales resulting in more expensive Coal having to be imported for Port Talbot. | |
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 09:40 - Dec 5 with 713 views | AnotherJohn |
Here is an interesting 2024 document on patterns of public spending across the UK and Barnett.
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7386/CBP-7386.pdf
Although over time the Barnett formula was intended to achieve greater convergence in levels of public expenditure per head across the four home countries (the “Barnett squeeze”), Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, in that order, receive more money per head than England (see graph on p.16). The only English region with comparable per capita spending to Scotland is London.
Section 2 discusses the comparative standing of the four home countries.
“The distribution of public spending across the UK (see section 2.1) has been criticised by some for not being equitable.32 Since devolution such criticisms have increased as devolved administrations have pursued policies different to those of the UK government. There is a perception that devolved administrations have been able to afford better public services, such as free prescriptions and university tuition, due to a “subsidy” from England.33 Some argue that there are good reasons as to why devolved administrations require per head funding above the English average (see section 2.1). For example, populations are more sparsely populated so providing the same level of service is more expensive. On the other hand, others point out that Scotland’s per capita income is greater than several English regions that receive less public money.”
One interesting snippet is this:
“For Scotland it has been argued that the relatively high levels of public spending precede the Barnett formula’s introduction. The Goschen formula (see section 1.8) did not update population proportions after 1888; however, Scotland’s population fell substantially relative to England & Wales and by 1959 Scotland received more than its population-based share of UK Government spending.” | | | |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 16:03 - Dec 5 with 628 views | Kilkennyjack |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 09:40 - Dec 5 by AnotherJohn |
Here is an interesting 2024 document on patterns of public spending across the UK and Barnett.
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7386/CBP-7386.pdf
Although over time the Barnett formula was intended to achieve greater convergence in levels of public expenditure per head across the four home countries (the “Barnett squeeze”), Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, in that order, receive more money per head than England (see graph on p.16). The only English region with comparable per capita spending to Scotland is London.
Section 2 discusses the comparative standing of the four home countries.
“The distribution of public spending across the UK (see section 2.1) has been criticised by some for not being equitable.32 Since devolution such criticisms have increased as devolved administrations have pursued policies different to those of the UK government. There is a perception that devolved administrations have been able to afford better public services, such as free prescriptions and university tuition, due to a “subsidy” from England.33 Some argue that there are good reasons as to why devolved administrations require per head funding above the English average (see section 2.1). For example, populations are more sparsely populated so providing the same level of service is more expensive. On the other hand, others point out that Scotland’s per capita income is greater than several English regions that receive less public money.”
One interesting snippet is this:
“For Scotland it has been argued that the relatively high levels of public spending precede the Barnett formula’s introduction. The Goschen formula (see section 1.8) did not update population proportions after 1888; however, Scotland’s population fell substantially relative to England & Wales and by 1959 Scotland received more than its population-based share of UK Government spending.” |
Its not based on need. Thats its biggest failing.
Its called a consequential because when England spends then a percentage is then allocated to the other nations and the north of Ireland etc
Due to many factors, like an ageing population, then based on need then Wales would get more.
I look forward to the day when Wales did not need more.
Mr Barnett himself supported this view. | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 19:09 - Dec 5 with 545 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 16:03 - Dec 5 by Kilkennyjack |
Its not based on need. Thats its biggest failing.
Its called a consequential because when England spends then a percentage is then allocated to the other nations and the north of Ireland etc
Due to many factors, like an ageing population, then based on need then Wales would get more.
I look forward to the day when Wales did not need more.
Mr Barnett himself supported this view. |
We all agree that NI Scotland and Wales received more government spending per head of the population than England. That is a direct result of the Barnett formula. | |
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 19:36 - Dec 5 with 531 views | Kilkennyjack |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 19:09 - Dec 5 by felixstowe_jack |
We all agree that NI Scotland and Wales received more government spending per head of the population than England. That is a direct result of the Barnett formula. |
Fair play to you.
Mr Barnett himself advocated progressive change to make things fairer, but you don’t want fairer.
There ain’t no arguing with …… you can guess the rest ….. 🏴 | |
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 20:25 - Dec 5 with 500 views | SullutaCreturned |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 19:36 - Dec 5 by Kilkennyjack |
Fair play to you.
Mr Barnett himself advocated progressive change to make things fairer, but you don’t want fairer.
There ain’t no arguing with …… you can guess the rest ….. 🏴 |
The problem there is that England has an aging population too and they most likely have far more "older" people than Wales. Therefore they too need more money but as Wales gets more per head than the poorest parts of England, just what is FAIR? | | | |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 08:58 - Dec 6 with 409 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 16:03 - Dec 5 by Kilkennyjack |
Its not based on need. Thats its biggest failing.
Its called a consequential because when England spends then a percentage is then allocated to the other nations and the north of Ireland etc
Due to many factors, like an ageing population, then based on need then Wales would get more.
I look forward to the day when Wales did not need more.
Mr Barnett himself supported this view. |
I like the way you keep quoting Joel Barnett. As you well know he a labour politicians later elevated to the Lords.
As you probably don't know he passed away in 2014. | |
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 16:31 - Dec 6 with 338 views | Kilkennyjack |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 08:58 - Dec 6 by felixstowe_jack |
I like the way you keep quoting Joel Barnett. As you well know he a labour politicians later elevated to the Lords.
As you probably don't know he passed away in 2014. |
Are suggesting that mr barnett could not speak prior to his death ?
Spoiler alert : imagine if he said it before he died, the very thought of it ….🤷♂️ | |
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 16:35 - Dec 6 with 322 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 16:31 - Dec 6 by Kilkennyjack |
Are suggesting that mr barnett could not speak prior to his death ?
Spoiler alert : imagine if he said it before he died, the very thought of it ….🤷♂️ |
No but you keep quoting him the present tense saying the Barnett formula is not working when he said that over 20 years ago before devolution was even introduced in Wales. | |
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 16:36 - Dec 6 with 321 views | Kilkennyjack |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 20:25 - Dec 5 by SullutaCreturned |
The problem there is that England has an aging population too and they most likely have far more "older" people than Wales. Therefore they too need more money but as Wales gets more per head than the poorest parts of England, just what is FAIR? |
I am not sure how familiar you are with percentages as a concept, and specifically the migration of many English retirees to the north wales coastal towns…?
You might be in for a surprise ….but older people tend to need more medical support than younger people. Needs driven demand see …. Not a consequential that is based on the needs of others.
I fear that this one may be a bridge too far for you …. 🇬🇧 | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 17:29 - Dec 6 with 297 views | SullutaCreturned |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 16:36 - Dec 6 by Kilkennyjack |
I am not sure how familiar you are with percentages as a concept, and specifically the migration of many English retirees to the north wales coastal towns…?
You might be in for a surprise ….but older people tend to need more medical support than younger people. Needs driven demand see …. Not a consequential that is based on the needs of others.
I fear that this one may be a bridge too far for you …. 🇬🇧 |
Hows this for a percentage....no, lets keep it simple for you...this year approx 12.6 million UK residents are over 65 and roughly 10 million live in England with around 670,000 living in Wales.
The second paragraph is hardly a surprise and as I said, there's a lot more elderly people in England that need support.
You don't need a bridge, just the capability to think. | | | |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 18:40 - Dec 6 with 241 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The SNP Budget Fiasco on 17:29 - Dec 6 by SullutaCreturned |
Hows this for a percentage....no, lets keep it simple for you...this year approx 12.6 million UK residents are over 65 and roughly 10 million live in England with around 670,000 living in Wales.
The second paragraph is hardly a surprise and as I said, there's a lot more elderly people in England that need support.
You don't need a bridge, just the capability to think. |
Just imagine the chaos on the two Severn bridge if passports controls were introduced as some want. | |
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