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As i've already alluded to, the minutiae of specific trading benefits aren't worthy of basing anything on - conditions change, that's the only thing of which we can be certain
It really does come down to a gut feeling about how the UK should see itself in future. It will always be "part of Europe" (if you get my continental drift), but not being part of the EU doesn't mean we'd become inward looking - rather precisely the opposite
I guess you can ascertain which side of the debate i'm on, but it's not based on short-term economics but quite simply on a massive distrust of all political classes. I'd simply rather we had the flexibility to change our trading circumstances outside the EU bloc, whilst maintaining a friendly and coherent relationship with it. And i suspect, the other 27 will be glad once we're out!
It does come down to that - but of course we don't all agree about how that future should look and rather than having that debate, sadly, the discourse has been hijacked by the anger and hatred which labels remain voters as 'traitors' and leave voters as 'racist & stupid'. You're right - insularity and fear of the other isn't an automatic outcome of Brexit but is your argument to Leave for greater openness shared by other Leave voters?
Each side tends to characterise honest debating points made by the other in a way which stifles genuine debate
For instance, just using a term such as "crashing" out of the EU immediately sets up a presumption of something disastrous
Another example - "a hard border in the island of Ireland" Who wants it? No-one, but it's used as the ultimate bargaining chip with people's livelihoods and indeed, lives on the line. So who is going to enforce a hard border? The UK? Or the EU? In reality, neither will do so, but the political classes are too hung up on their points of principle to give way
It does come down to that - but of course we don't all agree about how that future should look and rather than having that debate, sadly, the discourse has been hijacked by the anger and hatred which labels remain voters as 'traitors' and leave voters as 'racist & stupid'. You're right - insularity and fear of the other isn't an automatic outcome of Brexit but is your argument to Leave for greater openness shared by other Leave voters?
Sadly no, but it's vital that the genuine desire to have a future outside the EU as an open trading nation, part of a wider world and welcoming of all who share that aspiration, gets a fair hearing
Falinge Parka, Dalenumber2, Flyerdale, AncoatesBlue, Jonesy, Sandy Drum, RodLeach, HKdale, Brierls, TFP... The british told you to fvck off 17 million fvck offs... its a catchy tune I like it.
I voted to leave and I was aware meant leaving the customs union and single market, the remain campaign made it clear as well that what a vote to leave meant. It is an example of the remain camp not accepting the result, like the undemocratic EU. Every time the EU loses a referendum, they get the people to vote again or just ignore the result ans carry on as if nothing as happened.
I cannot understand why people want o remain in an organisation, which is so undemocratic and treats the people of Europe with utter contempt. I do not want to become a forced citizen of the United States of Europe. I would rather be poor and free, then poor and enslaved in an undemocratic EU.
Well it looks like you're going to get your wish.
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(No subject) (n/t) on 08:37 - Mar 22 with 2171 views
Falinge Parka, Dalenumber2, Flyerdale, AncoatesBlue, Jonesy, Sandy Drum, RodLeach, HKdale, Brierls, TFP... The british told you to fvck off 17 million fvck offs... its a catchy tune I like it.
[Post edited 22 Mar 2019 7:31]
Excuse me? I’m not sure I’ve listed anywhere on this forum how I voted in the referendum. Even if I had voted Remain where would you suggest I fck off to? Leave the country? New Zealand perhaps?
The biggest issue I have with the ref and subsequent fall out is the division it has created in the country. Leave voters labelled racists, Remain voters labelled snowflakes.
Whatever the outcome there needs to be an element of meeting the middle ground otherwise the government risk alienating millions of people for generations to come.
Falinge Parka, Dalenumber2, Flyerdale, AncoatesBlue, Jonesy, Sandy Drum, RodLeach, HKdale, Brierls, TFP... The british told you to fvck off 17 million fvck offs... its a catchy tune I like it.
[Post edited 22 Mar 2019 7:31]
Think I can guess who you are now judging by your posts on here that are similar to ones on a facebook group. Had a drink have we?
Oh btw your opinion doesn't count on this subject seeing as your a kiwi and it doesn't directly affect you.
The Netherlands voted yesterday in some sort of local council elections but the result will also determine the allocation of seats in their First Chamber, (their upper chamber), Nexit parties have gained considerable ground with FvD (Forum voor Democratie), now the largest party with 13 seats, together with PVV they now have 18 out of 75 seats in the 2nd chamber.
Any other nation looking at the foreign policy disaster that Brexit has become and thinking " that's a good idea " must have really lost their marbles.
Think I can guess who you are now judging by your posts on here that are similar to ones on a facebook group. Had a drink have we?
Oh btw your opinion doesn't count on this subject seeing as your a kiwi and it doesn't directly affect you.
I go on several other sites of all sorts of topics and it never ceases to amuse me that some of the most vociferous proponents of Brexit are people who bailed out of the U.K. to go and live abroad.
Falinge Parka, Dalenumber2, Flyerdale, AncoatesBlue, Jonesy, Sandy Drum, RodLeach, HKdale, Brierls, TFP... The british told you to fvck off 17 million fvck offs... its a catchy tune I like it.
[Post edited 22 Mar 2019 7:31]
Simple response to your eloquent contribution... we haven't left yet so the potential implications haven't been seen. I mean other than large multinationals moving production out of the UK, decrease in the value of the pound, stock market volatility, £bns spent by firms planning for the uncertainty that could have been reinvested elsewhere, etc..
Also don't get the vitriol towards experts either, if you had a health condition you go and see an expert, i.e. a doctor, not the old woman at the end of the road for some herbal remedies...
(No subject) (n/t) on 08:37 - Mar 22 by Ancoats_Blue
Excuse me? I’m not sure I’ve listed anywhere on this forum how I voted in the referendum. Even if I had voted Remain where would you suggest I fck off to? Leave the country? New Zealand perhaps?
The biggest issue I have with the ref and subsequent fall out is the division it has created in the country. Leave voters labelled racists, Remain voters labelled snowflakes.
Whatever the outcome there needs to be an element of meeting the middle ground otherwise the government risk alienating millions of people for generations to come.
[Post edited 22 Mar 2019 9:00]
To be honest I never posted that to be serious for one minute but if you want me to serious I can be.Have you ever considered the "Hegelian dialectic" simplified its thesis opposes antithesis and results in synthesis for a fuller explanation see below. An example being create a problem offer a solution and the resulting compromise gives you more control or put another way the best way to control the people is to divide them, It works a treat every time we have an election or in this case a referendum.
Hegelian dialectic an interpretive method, originally used to relate specific entities or events to the absolute idea, in which an assertable proposition (thesis) is necessarily opposed by its apparent contradiction (antithesis), and both reconciled on a higher level of truth by a third proposition (synthesis). Also called Hegelian triad.
There aren't too many divorces that don't get messy Jimmy!
Haha! You are right of course but this is strictly business (or should be at least) and so you would have thought that these EU officials would have acted with a certain amount of decorum to uphold their professional integrity if nothing else. All they've done is act like spoiled brats and put the verbal boot in at every available opportunity
Falinge Parka, Dalenumber2, Flyerdale, AncoatesBlue, Jonesy, Sandy Drum, RodLeach, HKdale, Brierls, TFP... The british told you to fvck off 17 million fvck offs... its a catchy tune I like it.
[Post edited 22 Mar 2019 7:31]
Congratulations for removing the last modicum of respect I had for you.
I still respect your opinion, but as a person that's out of the window now I'm afraid.
Simple response to your eloquent contribution... we haven't left yet so the potential implications haven't been seen. I mean other than large multinationals moving production out of the UK, decrease in the value of the pound, stock market volatility, £bns spent by firms planning for the uncertainty that could have been reinvested elsewhere, etc..
Also don't get the vitriol towards experts either, if you had a health condition you go and see an expert, i.e. a doctor, not the old woman at the end of the road for some herbal remedies...
my contribution eloquant or not was a bit of fun nothing more. You are right we haven't left yet and I suspect we were never going to leave or more to the point be allowed to leave your assertions listed in your post are not facts neither you or I know what will happen should Brexit happen, your analogy to herbal remedies from an old woman opposed to a doctor is naff you have simply chosen your experts selectively, I came across this recently and without being a expert on the Lisbon agreement I am aware of its implications not only for European nations also America and the west, it had this to say on the subject
"OK so we’ve had the worst-case scenario for leaving the EU given to us by numerous outlets ranging from the Bank of England to the spoiled prepubescent acting momentum supporter and everyone in-between.
So, I am now going to tell you the worst-case scenario of remaining in the EU based on actual known factors and figures, sourced from the public records of the UK Government, the EU Parliament, The Bank of England, the CBI, Migration watch, The Stock exchanges around the world, the IMF, and the UN.
So those of you who think that this little rant is a tin foil hat moment by myself think again and go and fully research and cross reference what I am about to tell you and remember this is worst-case scenario that could happen unless I clearly point out where it will happen by either a date or other factor.
KNOWN OUTCOMES THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN AGREED AS TRUE BY ALL SIDES:
1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or veto’s being allowed.
2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or veto’s.
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen the move is fully cancelled but if not and the UK remains a member it’s full steam ahead for the move.
5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.
6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.
7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.
10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights
11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights
12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty
13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation
14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent
15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy
16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them
17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealth
18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.; Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar ect
19: The UK loses control of its judicial system
20: The UK loses control of its international policy
21: The UK loses full control of its national policy
22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.
23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program
24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction
25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty
26: The UK’s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020
PROBABLE WORST-CASE OUTCOMES
1: The UK will become nothing more than a vassal protectorate state
2: With the continuation of freedom of movement, the population of the UK will continue to grow at a rate higher than pre-referendum level ranging between 400,000 to 675,000 per annum.
2.1; Which will result in not just wage suppression but even wage depression.
2.2; More than 500,000 new homes to be built annually (We are currently only managing 125,000)
2.3; House prices and rents will skyrocket annually by 23%
2.4; Class sizes in schools would have to increase by 50% if not even double
2.5; The NHS will become solely an emergency service of care provider as they would no longer be able to cope with the numbers of people needing care other than those of emergency.
2.6; GP’s will become triage centres
2.7; Public transport will become permit holders use only
2.8; Only those that did a serious crime namely murder will be given a custodial sentence
2.9; The Court system becomes fully overrun to the point extreme cases only being heard and the rest being given an automatic fine
2.10; Emergency services collapsing for not being able to cope with the scale of things
2.11; Social care becoming solely private social care for those who can afford it.
2.12; Homelessness to increase by over 28% annually
2.13; Unemployment to increase annually by 37%
2.14; The Benefit system to collapse fully to the point of the return of soup kitchens and even workhouse existence
2.15; Crime to increase by over 59% annually
2.16; Shanty towns to become the norm standard of housing
3: Because the UK would no longer be able to make its own trade deals, nor control its tariffs or quotas, Food prices would increase by over 25% and the cost of living would go up by over 39%
4: Because the UK would lose its oil and gas rights it would also lose the revenue from taxation on them, resulting in a loss of over 600 billion per year in taxation revenue
5: Because the UK will become a member state its percentage share of the vote on any new laws, regulations, treaties and everything else is at current member numbers 3.57% of the vote. That’s right folks the UK say in the EU if it was to remain a member is 3.57% total
Everything I have put thus far is just the very extreme tip of the iceberg that is ready to sink the UK if we remain a member of the EU.
Everything is verifiable by the sources I have already outlined above and is something the EU propaganda machine as well as our very own government are not telling you.
Remainers keep on bleating about that the people didn’t know all of the facts
If that’s the case then why are they failing to tell the people the downside or remaining a member of the EU.
ASK YOURSELVES THAT FACT AND FIND OUT THE TRUE HARD FACTS FOR YOURSELF"
Congratulations for removing the last modicum of respect I had for you.
I still respect your opinion, but as a person that's out of the window now I'm afraid.
Dear me Sandy toys right out of the pram there how will I get over this. So you respect my opinion but you have zero respect for me as a person talk about playing the man not the ball. just how old are you by the way?
Haha! You are right of course but this is strictly business (or should be at least) and so you would have thought that these EU officials would have acted with a certain amount of decorum to uphold their professional integrity if nothing else. All they've done is act like spoiled brats and put the verbal boot in at every available opportunity
You're in a rich vein of form Jimmy. You managed to get politicians, decorum and professional integrity in the same sentence. Your next sentence with spoiled brats in it was much easier on the eye I work with a lot of distributors all over Europe and most of their politicians are as bad as ours. I really don't follow politics at all but keep a weather eye open for outcomes. It seems we may have one of the worst set of numpties ever, on all sides of the house, presiding over something quite important. They are then fighting a clique of smug, self-serving Eurocrats riding their own gravy train. And we wonder why this sh1t-show is mired in sinking sand? That's me done on politics this year. I need a lie down now!
Dear me Sandy toys right out of the pram there how will I get over this. So you respect my opinion but you have zero respect for me as a person talk about playing the man not the ball. just how old are you by the way?
Old enough to know not to give out personal information to strangers on Internet forums.
Wish I'd chosen a different username...
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(No subject) (n/t) on 10:37 - Mar 22 with 2035 views
To be honest I never posted that to be serious for one minute but if you want me to serious I can be.Have you ever considered the "Hegelian dialectic" simplified its thesis opposes antithesis and results in synthesis for a fuller explanation see below. An example being create a problem offer a solution and the resulting compromise gives you more control or put another way the best way to control the people is to divide them, It works a treat every time we have an election or in this case a referendum.
Hegelian dialectic an interpretive method, originally used to relate specific entities or events to the absolute idea, in which an assertable proposition (thesis) is necessarily opposed by its apparent contradiction (antithesis), and both reconciled on a higher level of truth by a third proposition (synthesis). Also called Hegelian triad.
Now you’re confusing me. A critique of the supposed “divide and conquer” motives of the referendum yet you also think it’s a great thing the country is so divided. One can only assume that from your antipodean outpost you’re experiencing some sort of Schadenfreude in watching the in fighting in the UK. Odd.
To keep on the German philosophical track you started I believe it was Schopenhauer who said “to savour schadenfreude is diabolic”.
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