| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 20:22 - Feb 8 with 1765 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 20:09 - Feb 8 by Darran |
Well as funny as that is I still remember the "we didn't deserve to go up" posts under Jackett even though we'd finished in the third automatic position. |
What sort of idiot would say something like that?? |  |
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 20:24 - Feb 8 with 1759 views | Darran |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 20:22 - Feb 8 by exiledclaseboy |
What sort of idiot would say something like that?? |
Exactly. |  |
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 20:27 - Feb 8 with 1746 views | waynekerr55 |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 20:22 - Feb 8 by exiledclaseboy |
What sort of idiot would say something like that?? |
The same sort who trotted out the line that Kenny was only successful due to the 'work' done by his predecessor, Brian 'two days' Flynn |  |
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 20:27 - Feb 8 with 1736 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 19:32 - Feb 8 by Tummer_from_Texas |
I love detailed stats and tend to obsess over them as much as Dav and this Marottanomics dude, but that's a great framing of the counterargument.
In my opinion, neither one of you are completely correct nor totally wrong. |
You may be right, but only one of us ever sees us play live. [Post edited 8 Feb 2016 20:29]
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 20:50 - Feb 8 with 1704 views | VetchitBack |
As someone who wasn't Jaxkett's biggest fan I think it's fair to say history has shown that while his way worked to get us out of Division Four us reverting to type was the correct thing to do.
Unless you think being more physical and direct would have got us into the Prem quicker? |  |
| The orthodox are always orthodox, regardless of the orthodoxy.
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 21:00 - Feb 8 with 1691 views | longlostjack |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 17:04 - Feb 8 by londonlisa2001 |
The problem with statistics (and, yes, I do understand them - not directed at you btw), is that whilst the numbers themselves are 'relentlessly objective' , neither the selection of appropriate statistics nor the interpretation of those statistics, is.
Football actually doesn't lend itself to stats quite as much as the ridiculous obsession that some appear to have with opta suggests.
There is a reason why US sports are pretty statistical - it is because the variables within the game are far fewer.
As an example - watching American Football, it is far more relevant to talk about the number of times a quarterback does this or that because every single time they line up, the field is set in the same way, they are always in the centre of the pitch, the number and placement of both his team and the opposition team is the same. (I know they could be at twenty yards, or fifty yards up the field, and I know they could have a different number of players in different positions, but it is pretty much the same and they reset after every single play back to the same positions again).
Same with baseball - the pitcher and the hitter are always in the same spots, there is always the same distance between them, the ball has to be thrown over pretty much the same piece of ground otherwise it'll miss the plate, the bases are in the same place and so on.
The issue with football, is that the number of variables in play is astonishing - it is not a 'stop start' game, but one that is constantly evolving. A player receiving the ball will always be in a different place, the opposition players will be in a different place, in different parts of the field, his team mates will be in different positions and so on and so on. Pretty much the only time that is comparable with the static starting point of US sports is a penalty, and there, statistics are widely used and have been forever.
What stats to use are also far more difficult to choose. Again, taking baseball as an example, you hit the ball or you don't, you get to first base, or second, or whatever, you hit a home run or you don't - it's pretty easy to work out the important stats to use. So how do you measure the performance of someone like Britton and the impact he has on a game? Is it assists? Goals? % pass completion rate? % tackles made? I would argue that none of those statistics actually value what it is that he brings to the team - it is far more complex and nuanced than a set of stats would ever show. It takes watching the game, and understanding it (which means having watched loads of games for a long time) that actually allows someone to see his 'worth'.
Some stats are very interesting of course - as well as the possession stats (which are interesting but not as important as Sky would have us believe), shots, shots on target etc etc I personally find the 'average position on the field' quite interesting, the heat maps similarly, and even stats about how far members of the team have run are interesting.
But they only tell a tiny part of the story and if looked at in isolation, will often give a completely false idea of the game (Leicester for example have pretty poor possession stats I believe, and yet look at where they are).
The biggest single failing of stats of course, is that they only record the past and cannot predict the future - they will do over time if accurate enough and within a controlled environment (as per the casino point) because in the long run, probability is what it is, but they won't over a single event even in a controlled environment with few if any variables (which is why the odd person wins a fortune in a casino) and they certainly won't in a one off football game that has no end to the variables at work. |
Bang on. Just like Economists and Fund managers who have all the explanations under the sun for what happened but ask them to accurately predict what WILL happen and you'll get a hundred different opinions or worse still a consensus that is invariably wrong. |  |
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 21:34 - Feb 8 with 1634 views | BLAZE |
As good as Lisa's post was, can we please stop quoting it? I'm getting an RSI in my thumb  |  | | |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 21:35 - Feb 8 with 1626 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 21:34 - Feb 8 by BLAZE |
As good as Lisa's post was, can we please stop quoting it? I'm getting an RSI in my thumb |
Sorry - I did consider that when posting it in the first place :-) | | | |
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 10:24 - Feb 9 with 1507 views | Uxbridge |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 20:50 - Feb 8 by VetchitBack |
As someone who wasn't Jaxkett's biggest fan I think it's fair to say history has shown that while his way worked to get us out of Division Four us reverting to type was the correct thing to do.
Unless you think being more physical and direct would have got us into the Prem quicker? |
I'm not sure we reverted to type at all to be honest. The "Swansea Way" is a relatively recent thing. I wasn't exactly a fan of Jackett but we played some decent stuff under him at times. |  |
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 10:30 - Feb 9 with 1501 views | Darran |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 10:24 - Feb 9 by Uxbridge |
I'm not sure we reverted to type at all to be honest. The "Swansea Way" is a relatively recent thing. I wasn't exactly a fan of Jackett but we played some decent stuff under him at times. |
Brilliant post Andrew I've said it several times on here this "Swansea Way" tag is a farce to some of the great players of the past and the 'eroding our footballing principles" comments are even more of a farce considering we tried to play like it for about 5 seasons out of 104. | |
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 10:43 - Feb 9 with 1497 views | Dr_Winston |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 10:24 - Feb 9 by Uxbridge |
I'm not sure we reverted to type at all to be honest. The "Swansea Way" is a relatively recent thing. I wasn't exactly a fan of Jackett but we played some decent stuff under him at times. |
Barring Laudrup's first six months and the promotion season under Martinez, the year under KJ where we scored well over 100 goals in all comps is up there for the most fun I've had watching us. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 10:46 - Feb 9 with 1493 views | LeonisGod |
Don't agree with much of that.
- We've got a pretty decent defensive record, and have had ever since we came up
- It's the other end where we're having problems
- To describe Guidolin's style as having gritty, hard-working midfielders and then suggest JJS fits the bill is frankly bizarre. A shield of Jack and Leon is just fine. Or it would be if we used them as such rather than persisting with this frustrating diamond. |  | | |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 10:48 - Feb 9 with 1489 views | Uxbridge |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 10:30 - Feb 9 by Darran |
Brilliant post Andrew I've said it several times on here this "Swansea Way" tag is a farce to some of the great players of the past and the 'eroding our footballing principles" comments are even more of a farce considering we tried to play like it for about 5 seasons out of 104. |
Well the 60's and 70's were well before my time, so there may be some credence to the arguments that we were a footballing side back then. However you couldn't make much of a case for the 80's and 90's. | |
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 10:52 - Feb 9 with 1481 views | Darran |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 10:48 - Feb 9 by Uxbridge |
Well the 60's and 70's were well before my time, so there may be some credence to the arguments that we were a footballing side back then. However you couldn't make much of a case for the 80's and 90's. |
Indeed. | |
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 11:06 - Feb 9 with 1467 views | monmouth |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 10:48 - Feb 9 by Uxbridge |
Well the 60's and 70's were well before my time, so there may be some credence to the arguments that we were a footballing side back then. However you couldn't make much of a case for the 80's and 90's. |
Ha ha. For all Herbie, Barrie, Slats, Janner, Dai and the Screens' attributes, it wasn't exactly Holland.
Now Mickey Evans, total football he was. Coached by the silky fast passing approach of Harry Gregg. |  |
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 11:50 - Feb 9 with 1430 views | WarwickHunt |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 11:06 - Feb 9 by monmouth |
Ha ha. For all Herbie, Barrie, Slats, Janner, Dai and the Screens' attributes, it wasn't exactly Holland.
Now Mickey Evans, total football he was. Coached by the silky fast passing approach of Harry Gregg. |
"Mickey, when I said row Z I meant the ball, not the player". |  | | |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 13:08 - Feb 9 with 1384 views | VetchitBack |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 10:24 - Feb 9 by Uxbridge |
I'm not sure we reverted to type at all to be honest. The "Swansea Way" is a relatively recent thing. I wasn't exactly a fan of Jackett but we played some decent stuff under him at times. |
Well reverted to a style similar to that which we played under Flynn.
I know he got us up. I was someone who couldn't believe his total omission from the Jack to King film or that Bury game (maybe because of that Bury game).
But the way he treated Freestone was appalling and Leon Britton wouldn't have been a Swansea legend had he had his way. Arguably like Monk he was the right man for that season and it was also right when he went. | |
| The orthodox are always orthodox, regardless of the orthodoxy.
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 13:11 - Feb 9 with 1377 views | vetchonian |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 11:50 - Feb 9 by WarwickHunt |
"Mickey, when I said row Z I meant the ball, not the player". |
Halycon days | |
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 13:24 - Feb 9 with 1358 views | vetchonian |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 13:11 - Feb 9 by vetchonian |
Halycon days |
After reading all of this I come to several conclusions
If a manager joins a club mid season he has to work with the resources at his disposal,hopefully he will be aware of what he has before accepting the task. The sign of a good manager is one who makes best use of those resources,especially if they have been seen to be successful/suitable in the past.
Guidloin admits he cant change too much at the moment due to our current circumstances
The type of midfielder mentioned is not one we have had since the days of Darren Pratley | |
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 13:35 - Feb 9 with 1353 views | Davillin |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 21:00 - Feb 8 by longlostjack |
Bang on. Just like Economists and Fund managers who have all the explanations under the sun for what happened but ask them to accurately predict what WILL happen and you'll get a hundred different opinions or worse still a consensus that is invariably wrong. |
Don't ya just hate it when people assign false goals to things and then damn them for not meeting them.
"Capital punishment," for example, was never intended to "rehabilitate," but to do as it says on the label -- "punish."
Statistics are not intended to "predict," but to explain in mathematical terms what has happened so far in a particular area.
One can use a "projection" in a statistical study, but a "projection" is not a "prediction," but only a statistical representation of what would happen if whatever is being studied remains the same.
Creating and using straw men to create, then win, an imaginary argument pissesmeoff. It's intellectual dishonesty in its worst form. |  |
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 14:14 - Feb 9 with 1313 views | Uxbridge |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 13:08 - Feb 9 by VetchitBack |
Well reverted to a style similar to that which we played under Flynn.
I know he got us up. I was someone who couldn't believe his total omission from the Jack to King film or that Bury game (maybe because of that Bury game).
But the way he treated Freestone was appalling and Leon Britton wouldn't have been a Swansea legend had he had his way. Arguably like Monk he was the right man for that season and it was also right when he went. |
I thought he acted disgracefully regarding Roger. Classless even. He tried to sell Trundle too to Northampton lest we forget. His jettisoning of Martinez was done for non footballing reasons, even if some may seek to justify his actions with El Cnto's subsequent indiscretions.
But footballing wise, he wasn't all that different to Flynn for me. We weren't that much of a footballing side under him either. Given that Flynn only decided to turn up for 2 days a week it's difficult to know how much input he actually had anyway. However his regime undoubtedly left an indelible mark with the recruitment of so many players who became key through our rise.
As for JTAK, it was pretty scandalous in parts. Couple of managers and countless other people were airbrushed as others sought to grab some ill-gotten limelight. With that result it's difficult to argue against the vanity project accusation. Jackett would have every right to feel aggrieved, as would Sousa. They played just as big a part in the success, even if their departures was very much needed for us to progress. | |
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 14:58 - Feb 9 with 1279 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 13:35 - Feb 9 by Davillin |
Don't ya just hate it when people assign false goals to things and then damn them for not meeting them.
"Capital punishment," for example, was never intended to "rehabilitate," but to do as it says on the label -- "punish."
Statistics are not intended to "predict," but to explain in mathematical terms what has happened so far in a particular area.
One can use a "projection" in a statistical study, but a "projection" is not a "prediction," but only a statistical representation of what would happen if whatever is being studied remains the same.
Creating and using straw men to create, then win, an imaginary argument pissesmeoff. It's intellectual dishonesty in its worst form. |
Well one thing that I could have predicted based on past evidence is that you would attempt to try to criticise what I wrote without admitting that you had read it since you lack the intellectual honesty to engage in a discussion with someone that you know is going to make you look stupid (again).
I'm not entering a discussion on the rest of the nonsense contained within your little tantrum as you don't know what you're talking about.
Grow up. | | | |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 19:57 - Feb 9 with 1191 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 10:43 - Feb 9 by Dr_Winston |
Barring Laudrup's first six months and the promotion season under Martinez, the year under KJ where we scored well over 100 goals in all comps is up there for the most fun I've had watching us. |
Yeah but you're weird like that. | |
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 20:03 - Feb 9 with 1181 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 13:35 - Feb 9 by Davillin |
Don't ya just hate it when people assign false goals to things and then damn them for not meeting them.
"Capital punishment," for example, was never intended to "rehabilitate," but to do as it says on the label -- "punish."
Statistics are not intended to "predict," but to explain in mathematical terms what has happened so far in a particular area.
One can use a "projection" in a statistical study, but a "projection" is not a "prediction," but only a statistical representation of what would happen if whatever is being studied remains the same.
Creating and using straw men to create, then win, an imaginary argument pissesmeoff. It's intellectual dishonesty in its worst form. |
I would have thought it was self evident that capital punishment wasn't meant to rehabilitate. It would be pretty silly to suggest otherwise. Not many second chances to be had after the noose or electric has done its work.
But I digress. [Post edited 9 Feb 2016 20:16]
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| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 00:09 - Feb 10 with 1108 views | Davillin |
| Guidolin: Right Man, Wrong Tools on 13:08 - Feb 9 by VetchitBack |
Well reverted to a style similar to that which we played under Flynn.
I know he got us up. I was someone who couldn't believe his total omission from the Jack to King film or that Bury game (maybe because of that Bury game).
But the way he treated Freestone was appalling and Leon Britton wouldn't have been a Swansea legend had he had his way. Arguably like Monk he was the right man for that season and it was also right when he went. |
It is ever interesting to see how different people can see the same thing so differently.
I don't think Flynn "got us up" or even "kept us up." At best, he didn't put us down. Not the same.
I'll never forget his outrageous antics on television in celebration of the Swans staying up. As if he had something to do with it. | |
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