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Just another normal school day in the UK on 16:02 - Apr 18 by Scotia
Carry on posting bigoted nonsense and I'll carry on shutting it down.
Have you found an example of a 4 year old LGBT champion yet?
I'd and I'm sure a few other would like to know what's the acceptable age for kids to be selected to become champions of LGBTIRS ? By the way I don't and never or will have gone looking for children .
"In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master."
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Just another normal school day in the UK on 10:17 - Apr 19 with 1226 views
Just another normal school day in the UK on 08:15 - Apr 19 by Boundy
I'd and I'm sure a few other would like to know what's the acceptable age for kids to be selected to become champions of LGBTIRS ? By the way I don't and never or will have gone looking for children .
When they're old enough to understand their feelings towards other humans and how to appropriately handle those feelings.
That's not to say smaller children shouldn't be aware that LGBT people exist. I have a friend who has a daughter (via surrogate) with his husband, his daughter should not be bullied becasue of that and other childrens awareness of their situation reduces the likelihood of that happening. Nothing of this nature has been introduced in my daughters school, one of her classmates has got two Mum's, we make my daughter aware that all families are different. Because they are.
There are LGBT childen in primary school right now. It's better if they grow up without fear of being stigmatised for their inate feelings, they'll be better happy children and better adults.
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Just another normal school day in the UK on 12:59 - Apr 19 with 1165 views
Just another normal school day in the UK on 11:37 - Apr 19 by Scotia
When they're old enough to understand their feelings towards other humans and how to appropriately handle those feelings.
That's not to say smaller children shouldn't be aware that LGBT people exist. I have a friend who has a daughter (via surrogate) with his husband, his daughter should not be bullied becasue of that and other childrens awareness of their situation reduces the likelihood of that happening. Nothing of this nature has been introduced in my daughters school, one of her classmates has got two Mum's, we make my daughter aware that all families are different. Because they are.
There are LGBT childen in primary school right now. It's better if they grow up without fear of being stigmatised for their inate feelings, they'll be better happy children and better adults.
Yep.
The limit of LGBT 'education' for 4 year olds would be when talking about families making sure it's pointed out that some families are made up differently.
Some will have a mum and a dad, some just a mum, some just a dad, some two mums, some two dads, some live with other relatives, some are adopted or fostered.
That's it.
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Just another normal school day in the UK on 13:28 - Apr 19 with 1148 views
Just another normal school day in the UK on 12:59 - Apr 19 by Gwyn737
Yep.
The limit of LGBT 'education' for 4 year olds would be when talking about families making sure it's pointed out that some families are made up differently.
Some will have a mum and a dad, some just a mum, some just a dad, some two mums, some two dads, some live with other relatives, some are adopted or fostered.
Just another normal school day in the UK on 11:37 - Apr 19 by Scotia
When they're old enough to understand their feelings towards other humans and how to appropriately handle those feelings.
That's not to say smaller children shouldn't be aware that LGBT people exist. I have a friend who has a daughter (via surrogate) with his husband, his daughter should not be bullied becasue of that and other childrens awareness of their situation reduces the likelihood of that happening. Nothing of this nature has been introduced in my daughters school, one of her classmates has got two Mum's, we make my daughter aware that all families are different. Because they are.
There are LGBT childen in primary school right now. It's better if they grow up without fear of being stigmatised for their inate feelings, they'll be better happy children and better adults.
Many people will agree with your point of view. But others will think that this is just as much about ideology as scientific evidence. You say that there are already LGBT children in these classrooms, but Is falling within one of the categories of LGBTQ+ a matter of biology and essential character, or is it more about an identity constructed in other ways? Are such identities associated with particular social discourses, as Foucault argues in his History of Sexuality? Are gender identities shaped by social and cultural influences that vary according to time and place? Is the socialisation process part of this? On the other side of the argument are those who argue that gender identity/sexual orientation is determined by genetics. They point to evidence from twin studies or molecular genetic marker studies. But studies of identical twins found only around a quarter of cases where when one twin felt same sex attraction this also applied to the second twin. Some genetic marker studies report finding an association between given chromosome patterns and trait of interest, but mostly these findings haven't been replicated when follow-on studies were undertaken. So there doesn't seem to be conclusive evidence of a definite genetic basis for differences in gender identity/sexual orientation, and what we really have are contending ideological camps, as indeed the Cass report found when it came to NHS gender identity services. Personally I don't think it is a good thing to implement programmes based on unproven ideas from bodies like Stonewall in primary schools.
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Just another normal school day in the UK on 14:43 - Apr 19 with 1116 views
Just another normal school day in the UK on 13:30 - Apr 19 by AnotherJohn
Many people will agree with your point of view. But others will think that this is just as much about ideology as scientific evidence. You say that there are already LGBT children in these classrooms, but Is falling within one of the categories of LGBTQ+ a matter of biology and essential character, or is it more about an identity constructed in other ways? Are such identities associated with particular social discourses, as Foucault argues in his History of Sexuality? Are gender identities shaped by social and cultural influences that vary according to time and place? Is the socialisation process part of this? On the other side of the argument are those who argue that gender identity/sexual orientation is determined by genetics. They point to evidence from twin studies or molecular genetic marker studies. But studies of identical twins found only around a quarter of cases where when one twin felt same sex attraction this also applied to the second twin. Some genetic marker studies report finding an association between given chromosome patterns and trait of interest, but mostly these findings haven't been replicated when follow-on studies were undertaken. So there doesn't seem to be conclusive evidence of a definite genetic basis for differences in gender identity/sexual orientation, and what we really have are contending ideological camps, as indeed the Cass report found when it came to NHS gender identity services. Personally I don't think it is a good thing to implement programmes based on unproven ideas from bodies like Stonewall in primary schools.
The human body and mind and the interactions between them is massively complex. I don't understand it and I doubt if anyone really does. That's why threads such as this are so stupid, we've got grown men who know nothing about this situation(and are unwilling to learn) jumping to conclusions based on very right wing media rather than their own experience.
I've basically been called an unfit father for taking my daughter to pride by someone who's never been to pride? Try to figure that out.
I'd be amazed if there is one aspect of mental, emotional, biological or physical aspect to sexual orientatuion or gender, it's probably a huge interaction between all of these things. That is why we are all different and people are attracted to different looking people. I'm 100% straight but I'm not especially attracted to blonde haired, fair skinned females. Give me Maya Jama over Taylor Swift any day of the week. Thinking of it now I've never had a blonde girlfriend!
I've got a lesbian friend, who I think is a stunning looking woman, her partner is very butch, overweight and masculine. I'm amazed they are together based on apperance but they work for each other.
Similarly with gender, it's perfectly possible for the inside of someones body to be differnt to the outside. I think gender identiy is far more complex than sexuality, could probably be a learnt behaviour (in the short term and in some cases) and could certainly be abused. Huge amounts of care needs to be taken regarding this, especially with children. But things do go "wrong" in human development.
Ultimately, I don't think what casues sexuality or gender identity matters. It's not going to be influenced by being taught to respect peoples differences in school. But if a child (of a sensible age) hears that them finding members of the same sex attractive isn't something to be ashamed of they are likely to grow up happier and more confident rather than ashamed, embarrassed and abused.
Who knows, perhaps in 20 years "pride" will be a thing of the past becasue what they are proud of will just be accepted as normal? Becasue it is.
Just another normal school day in the UK on 11:37 - Apr 19 by Scotia
When they're old enough to understand their feelings towards other humans and how to appropriately handle those feelings.
That's not to say smaller children shouldn't be aware that LGBT people exist. I have a friend who has a daughter (via surrogate) with his husband, his daughter should not be bullied becasue of that and other childrens awareness of their situation reduces the likelihood of that happening. Nothing of this nature has been introduced in my daughters school, one of her classmates has got two Mum's, we make my daughter aware that all families are different. Because they are.
There are LGBT childen in primary school right now. It's better if they grow up without fear of being stigmatised for their inate feelings, they'll be better happy children and better adults.
How can we say there are LGBT children in primary school though? I used to have “girl friends” when I was at that age and pull their pigtails and play kiss chase etc but there was no sexual attraction involved, it was all pretend. It’s only really when you hit puberty and your body changes you’re really aware of sexual attraction and who you’re attracted to.
It’s one thing talking about love and families and all that lovely stuff but the uncomfortable truth is that sexuality is about sex, lust, the desire to stick things in peoples orifices. How do you explain that to a primary school kid and why the hell would you want/need to? It’s sick. I love my best friend, I consider him part of my family. If I ever have kids he will be the uncle, godfather and best friend rolled into one. It is real love. But I sure as hell have no intention of going anywhere near his penis or bum nor he near mine. That’s the difference.
Just another normal school day in the UK on 16:01 - Apr 19 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth
How can we say there are LGBT children in primary school though? I used to have “girl friends” when I was at that age and pull their pigtails and play kiss chase etc but there was no sexual attraction involved, it was all pretend. It’s only really when you hit puberty and your body changes you’re really aware of sexual attraction and who you’re attracted to.
It’s one thing talking about love and families and all that lovely stuff but the uncomfortable truth is that sexuality is about sex, lust, the desire to stick things in peoples orifices. How do you explain that to a primary school kid and why the hell would you want/need to? It’s sick. I love my best friend, I consider him part of my family. If I ever have kids he will be the uncle, godfather and best friend rolled into one. It is real love. But I sure as hell have no intention of going anywhere near his penis or bum nor he near mine. That’s the difference.
To be fair, that's not what Scotia said.
He said that they need to know they exist, and that there will be (in time) LGBT people that are currently in school.
Both these things are true.
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Just another normal school day in the UK on 16:10 - Apr 19 with 1092 views
Just another normal school day in the UK on 16:01 - Apr 19 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth
How can we say there are LGBT children in primary school though? I used to have “girl friends” when I was at that age and pull their pigtails and play kiss chase etc but there was no sexual attraction involved, it was all pretend. It’s only really when you hit puberty and your body changes you’re really aware of sexual attraction and who you’re attracted to.
It’s one thing talking about love and families and all that lovely stuff but the uncomfortable truth is that sexuality is about sex, lust, the desire to stick things in peoples orifices. How do you explain that to a primary school kid and why the hell would you want/need to? It’s sick. I love my best friend, I consider him part of my family. If I ever have kids he will be the uncle, godfather and best friend rolled into one. It is real love. But I sure as hell have no intention of going anywhere near his penis or bum nor he near mine. That’s the difference.
So you and this generation know ,negating every previous generations who appear to be now colonialist ,slavery merchants,racist,homophobic scum ? Makes you seem Dee why so many gave their lives in blood,guts and mud so we could have a generation now that tries to overdue nature There are two genders ,two alone .
Just another normal school day in the UK on 17:08 - Apr 19 by Flashberryjack
Whilst they are little children, I'd ignore it until such a time that they ask.
Seems that everyone want's to get into children's heads these days, whether it's political or sexual, get them young.
I’ll give you a recent real example.
Two dads have adopted a reception age boy and joined a school.
Another child for whom this is new, says to the new boy “ you can’t have two dads, you can only have a mum and a dad”.
Child goes home and gets upset. Says to his dads what has been said.
The two dads are very sensible and understand that it was always likely that this would happen.
They go on into school and share everything with the class teacher and ask her if she can talk to the class about how some children have different types of families.
Any issues with the teacher doing that?
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Just another normal school day in the UK on 20:47 - Apr 19 with 975 views
Just another normal school day in the UK on 18:01 - Apr 19 by Gwyn737
I’ll give you a recent real example.
Two dads have adopted a reception age boy and joined a school.
Another child for whom this is new, says to the new boy “ you can’t have two dads, you can only have a mum and a dad”.
Child goes home and gets upset. Says to his dads what has been said.
The two dads are very sensible and understand that it was always likely that this would happen.
They go on into school and share everything with the class teacher and ask her if she can talk to the class about how some children have different types of families.
Any issues with the teacher doing that?
I'm willing to bet that's exactly the situation these kind of schemes are designed to address.
It's why they're needed.
Unfortunately though, some people would probably rather see the child in care than have two loving Dad's.
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Just another normal school day in the UK on 21:08 - Apr 19 with 963 views
Just another normal school day in the UK on 20:47 - Apr 19 by Scotia
I'm willing to bet that's exactly the situation these kind of schemes are designed to address.
It's why they're needed.
Unfortunately though, some people would probably rather see the child in care than have two loving Dad's.
It’s precisely what it (and the resources written for infant children) are for.
I always wonder what those who complain about these awful books think is in them. Maybe because some nutter in California has written an entirely inappropriate book that’s gone viral on twitter they think that’s the norm.
In reality, this is probably the most commonly used book in uk primary schools. It’s fantastic.
Just another normal school day in the UK on 18:01 - Apr 19 by Gwyn737
I’ll give you a recent real example.
Two dads have adopted a reception age boy and joined a school.
Another child for whom this is new, says to the new boy “ you can’t have two dads, you can only have a mum and a dad”.
Child goes home and gets upset. Says to his dads what has been said.
The two dads are very sensible and understand that it was always likely that this would happen.
They go on into school and share everything with the class teacher and ask her if she can talk to the class about how some children have different types of families.
Just another normal school day in the UK on 14:43 - Apr 19 by Scotia
The human body and mind and the interactions between them is massively complex. I don't understand it and I doubt if anyone really does. That's why threads such as this are so stupid, we've got grown men who know nothing about this situation(and are unwilling to learn) jumping to conclusions based on very right wing media rather than their own experience.
I've basically been called an unfit father for taking my daughter to pride by someone who's never been to pride? Try to figure that out.
I'd be amazed if there is one aspect of mental, emotional, biological or physical aspect to sexual orientatuion or gender, it's probably a huge interaction between all of these things. That is why we are all different and people are attracted to different looking people. I'm 100% straight but I'm not especially attracted to blonde haired, fair skinned females. Give me Maya Jama over Taylor Swift any day of the week. Thinking of it now I've never had a blonde girlfriend!
I've got a lesbian friend, who I think is a stunning looking woman, her partner is very butch, overweight and masculine. I'm amazed they are together based on apperance but they work for each other.
Similarly with gender, it's perfectly possible for the inside of someones body to be differnt to the outside. I think gender identiy is far more complex than sexuality, could probably be a learnt behaviour (in the short term and in some cases) and could certainly be abused. Huge amounts of care needs to be taken regarding this, especially with children. But things do go "wrong" in human development.
Ultimately, I don't think what casues sexuality or gender identity matters. It's not going to be influenced by being taught to respect peoples differences in school. But if a child (of a sensible age) hears that them finding members of the same sex attractive isn't something to be ashamed of they are likely to grow up happier and more confident rather than ashamed, embarrassed and abused.
Who knows, perhaps in 20 years "pride" will be a thing of the past becasue what they are proud of will just be accepted as normal? Becasue it is.
I agree with a lot of that but I still feel this shouldn't be pushed at Primary schools. We should just be teaching them to treat others how they would like to be treated, hopefully that means being polite and respectful until you have a reason to be otherwise.
We have known families with 2 mothers and 2 fathers and the most important thing there is that the children are loved and cared for properly, there is far too much hate in the world so anything that helps there be more love should be embraced but not at such a young age, let children be children. They lose their innocence soon enough.
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Just another normal school day in the UK on 12:05 - Apr 20 with 822 views
Just another normal school day in the UK on 11:21 - Apr 20 by SullutaCreturned
I agree with a lot of that but I still feel this shouldn't be pushed at Primary schools. We should just be teaching them to treat others how they would like to be treated, hopefully that means being polite and respectful until you have a reason to be otherwise.
We have known families with 2 mothers and 2 fathers and the most important thing there is that the children are loved and cared for properly, there is far too much hate in the world so anything that helps there be more love should be embraced but not at such a young age, let children be children. They lose their innocence soon enough.
What you’ve described there is pretty much exactly what is going on in practically every primary school in the land.
The idea that schools have 4 year old LGBT champions is just laughable. Unfortunately that is just what the GB news article that started the thread wants to suggest to people who don’t know what an LGBT champion would be in a primary school, what the resources are and in what situations they could be used.
There are very few things that all primary schools would consistently do in this area. All would certainly support the families you mentioned .
I suppose that’s why I’m quite surprised by OHL’s response above. I work in a pretty mixed school but telling children that families can come in all shapes and sizes would not cause one second of disquiet.
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Just another normal school day in the UK on 12:23 - Apr 20 with 818 views
Just another normal school day in the UK on 11:21 - Apr 20 by SullutaCreturned
I agree with a lot of that but I still feel this shouldn't be pushed at Primary schools. We should just be teaching them to treat others how they would like to be treated, hopefully that means being polite and respectful until you have a reason to be otherwise.
We have known families with 2 mothers and 2 fathers and the most important thing there is that the children are loved and cared for properly, there is far too much hate in the world so anything that helps there be more love should be embraced but not at such a young age, let children be children. They lose their innocence soon enough.
I’d imagine most children have at least two fathers these days.
...from the Stonewall website discussed upthread....
10,000 Dresses
by Marcus Ewert and Rex Ray, published by Seven Stories Press, ISBN 1583228500
Every night, Bailey dreamed of dresses. Thousands of beautiful dresses! Bailey’s parents wouldn’t let her get a dress of her own – they told her boys don’t wear dresses. Eventually Bailey finds a friend who helps her to make a dress of her own.
Other themes: Celebrating difference
Publisher's age recommendation: not specified. Our age recommendation: 2-4 and 5-7.
If you want something you should have it. Your identity is defined by the things you want. If you parents don't allow you the things you want, reject them, and find strangers who will. If someone gives you the things you want, they are your friend.
Grooming 101
Grooming 101
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Just another normal school day in the UK on 13:58 - Apr 20 with 779 views
Just another normal school day in the UK on 13:29 - Apr 20 by dizietsma
...from the Stonewall website discussed upthread....
10,000 Dresses
by Marcus Ewert and Rex Ray, published by Seven Stories Press, ISBN 1583228500
Every night, Bailey dreamed of dresses. Thousands of beautiful dresses! Bailey’s parents wouldn’t let her get a dress of her own – they told her boys don’t wear dresses. Eventually Bailey finds a friend who helps her to make a dress of her own.
Other themes: Celebrating difference
Publisher's age recommendation: not specified. Our age recommendation: 2-4 and 5-7.
If you want something you should have it. Your identity is defined by the things you want. If you parents don't allow you the things you want, reject them, and find strangers who will. If someone gives you the things you want, they are your friend.
Grooming 101
Grooming 101
That’s your interpretation.
Any evidence of children being taught that book?
Far more evidence of The Boy in the Dress by David Walliams being used.
Over a million copies sold, a Christmas BBC film and musical by the RSC.
I reckon the cast majority of 7 to 14 year olds will be able to tell you all about it.
Or as I said earlier in the thread, Giraffes Can’t Dance is the one that widely used in the EYFS.
[Post edited 20 Apr 13:59]
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Just another normal school day in the UK on 14:06 - Apr 20 with 777 views
Just another normal school day in the UK on 13:29 - Apr 20 by dizietsma
...from the Stonewall website discussed upthread....
10,000 Dresses
by Marcus Ewert and Rex Ray, published by Seven Stories Press, ISBN 1583228500
Every night, Bailey dreamed of dresses. Thousands of beautiful dresses! Bailey’s parents wouldn’t let her get a dress of her own – they told her boys don’t wear dresses. Eventually Bailey finds a friend who helps her to make a dress of her own.
Other themes: Celebrating difference
Publisher's age recommendation: not specified. Our age recommendation: 2-4 and 5-7.
If you want something you should have it. Your identity is defined by the things you want. If you parents don't allow you the things you want, reject them, and find strangers who will. If someone gives you the things you want, they are your friend.
Grooming 101
Grooming 101
"STRANGER" danger no more it longer is then!!!!
"STRANGERS"..... That once upon a time were warned about by protective parents and public information campaign(s).
Nowadays its more a case of sick and creepy irresponsible adults who either support or actually take children 2+ years of age to a gay nightclub to be walked away from the parent(s) by the hand (just like in video 0:24s) of a male "Stranger" dressed as (FFS WHY?) woman.....Or with that 2-4 year old book QUOTE: "Your identity is defined by the things you want. If you parents don't allow you the things you want, reject them, and find 'STRANGERS' who will." END OF QUOTE.
Shocking state of affairs when grown up's corrupt the innocence of a child by various means either by reading/viewing material,or events etc. And not only that, but then messing with thier confused young innocent minds, whilst endangering them also.
Argus!
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Just another normal school day in the UK on 14:20 - Apr 20 with 772 views
Just another normal school day in the UK on 13:29 - Apr 20 by dizietsma
...from the Stonewall website discussed upthread....
10,000 Dresses
by Marcus Ewert and Rex Ray, published by Seven Stories Press, ISBN 1583228500
Every night, Bailey dreamed of dresses. Thousands of beautiful dresses! Bailey’s parents wouldn’t let her get a dress of her own – they told her boys don’t wear dresses. Eventually Bailey finds a friend who helps her to make a dress of her own.
Other themes: Celebrating difference
Publisher's age recommendation: not specified. Our age recommendation: 2-4 and 5-7.
If you want something you should have it. Your identity is defined by the things you want. If you parents don't allow you the things you want, reject them, and find strangers who will. If someone gives you the things you want, they are your friend.
Grooming 101
Grooming 101
This hints at the main point of contention between the two sides of the argument. Scotia says: "There are LGBT children in primary school right now". Despite what he goes on to say about the complex factors that affect gender identity, he uses the word "innate", giving a pretty clear indication of what he thinks the dominant factor is. I suggested that there may be a social and cultural dimension, and that socialisation may play a role. The implication there is that what happens in the early years of primary school may be crucial in shaping identities; it may make a real difference to how young people construct their identities. Ideas about what is possible in the world, and what choices people may be able to make, shape subsequent actions and perceptions of self. So the way I see things, following Stonewall's plan for LGBTQ+ champions in primary schools is not a neutral move. It is an attempt to achieve cultural change and promote certain ideas about the fluidity of gender identities; ideas that didn't exist here in earlier times.
[Post edited 20 Apr 14:31]
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Just another normal school day in the UK on 16:28 - Apr 20 with 727 views
Just another normal school day in the UK on 12:23 - Apr 20 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth
I’d imagine most children have at least two fathers these days.
Both my sons only have one, but they have different mothers.
The usual rule applies here, have a look at the source and then apply a fillter. GB news for example, it's going to have right wing bias, quite a bit.
When it omes to what goes on in schools the best source I have is gwyn because he's a teacher and, having met him and spent time with him at an away day, I trust his opinion over people I''ve never met.
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