| Colston Statue vandals innocent 18:40 - Jan 5 with 19734 views | Flashberryjack |
Colston vandals are CLEARED: Gleeful BLM activists thank Banksy for his support after they are acquitted of criminal damage over toppling of Edward Colston statue - sparking outrage that jury has given a 'greenlight to political vandalism. |  |
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| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 14:32 - Jan 7 with 1250 views | Professor |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 12:38 - Jan 7 by Glossolalia |
Indeed, he used to be cruel to his woman. He beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved. |
That's a McCartney song though. Still Lennon was a ......... |  | | |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 15:03 - Jan 7 with 1207 views | Lohengrin |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 10:52 - Jan 7 by Professor |
The Colston issue could easily have been dealt with if, the self-appointed, Merchant Venturers had not blocked it, despite the general feeling of the City it was problematic. Perhaps this is was seen an issue for a jury in the city.
The verdict suggests nothing, it's not a precedent (which you have failed to grasp previously on UK law). The question was this criminal damage? The jury decided no. On what basis, we don't know and will never do so.
The disgusted of Tunbridge Wells approach helps nothing or no one either.We can agree to disagree I think
Anyway have a good evening-work to do. |
”...despite the general feeling of the City it was problematic.”
I don’t think that statement reflects reality to be honest, Prof. As I understand it there have been numerous opinion polls conducted by the Bristol Post, The Week In and BBC Radio Bristol over the last decade or so, all of which returned a majority that favoured retention of the Colston statue. Don’t confuse the presence in the city of a particularly noisome student branch of the Socialist Workers’ Party with a general clamouring.
Is there anybody else finding it odd that the people doing the wailing and gnashing of teeth over seventeenth century trade have precisely nothing to say about trading with a state in the here-and-now that is zealously commissioning acts of genocide? |  |
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| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 15:40 - Jan 7 with 1178 views | Professor |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 15:03 - Jan 7 by Lohengrin |
”...despite the general feeling of the City it was problematic.”
I don’t think that statement reflects reality to be honest, Prof. As I understand it there have been numerous opinion polls conducted by the Bristol Post, The Week In and BBC Radio Bristol over the last decade or so, all of which returned a majority that favoured retention of the Colston statue. Don’t confuse the presence in the city of a particularly noisome student branch of the Socialist Workers’ Party with a general clamouring.
Is there anybody else finding it odd that the people doing the wailing and gnashing of teeth over seventeenth century trade have precisely nothing to say about trading with a state in the here-and-now that is zealously commissioning acts of genocide? |
Which one Loh? A few to pick from.
China and Saudi probably the worst
Plenty of other reprehensible ones ‘we’ have little issue with. Including on going slavery. We are hoping to qualify for a World Cup at one of them | | | |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 15:48 - Jan 7 with 1173 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 15:03 - Jan 7 by Lohengrin |
”...despite the general feeling of the City it was problematic.”
I don’t think that statement reflects reality to be honest, Prof. As I understand it there have been numerous opinion polls conducted by the Bristol Post, The Week In and BBC Radio Bristol over the last decade or so, all of which returned a majority that favoured retention of the Colston statue. Don’t confuse the presence in the city of a particularly noisome student branch of the Socialist Workers’ Party with a general clamouring.
Is there anybody else finding it odd that the people doing the wailing and gnashing of teeth over seventeenth century trade have precisely nothing to say about trading with a state in the here-and-now that is zealously commissioning acts of genocide? |
Millions of people in concentration camps in China and the noisy students ignore it, similary with the humaniarian crisis in Afghanistan, Yemen etc. etc. |  |
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| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 15:59 - Jan 7 with 1156 views | Catullus |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 15:03 - Jan 7 by Lohengrin |
”...despite the general feeling of the City it was problematic.”
I don’t think that statement reflects reality to be honest, Prof. As I understand it there have been numerous opinion polls conducted by the Bristol Post, The Week In and BBC Radio Bristol over the last decade or so, all of which returned a majority that favoured retention of the Colston statue. Don’t confuse the presence in the city of a particularly noisome student branch of the Socialist Workers’ Party with a general clamouring.
Is there anybody else finding it odd that the people doing the wailing and gnashing of teeth over seventeenth century trade have precisely nothing to say about trading with a state in the here-and-now that is zealously commissioning acts of genocide? |
Good point Loh, peoplebuy loads of stuff on Amazon that comes from China, they don't care about the crimes against humanity as long as their goods are cheap. The upcoming World Cup, any decent person should boycott it really; then there's Saudi Arabia( and other places out that way) with terrible human rights issues that people ignore.
The "Who do you think you are" show presented some black people with very distasteful info about their family history but we should always remember, we cannot change history though we should learn from it. Colstons statue should have been removed. In my Opinion Clive, Stanley and others should have their statues removed to museums and have plaques telling their whole story but mobs tearing things down and getting let of because 'racism innit' is not on.
This didn't set a legal precedent, I understand that but it did set a precedent that I can see being argued in courts in the future.
PS, I thought there was quite large public support for taking it down but the council had held back for some reason. | |
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| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 16:27 - Jan 7 with 1149 views | Professor |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 15:59 - Jan 7 by Catullus |
Good point Loh, peoplebuy loads of stuff on Amazon that comes from China, they don't care about the crimes against humanity as long as their goods are cheap. The upcoming World Cup, any decent person should boycott it really; then there's Saudi Arabia( and other places out that way) with terrible human rights issues that people ignore.
The "Who do you think you are" show presented some black people with very distasteful info about their family history but we should always remember, we cannot change history though we should learn from it. Colstons statue should have been removed. In my Opinion Clive, Stanley and others should have their statues removed to museums and have plaques telling their whole story but mobs tearing things down and getting let of because 'racism innit' is not on.
This didn't set a legal precedent, I understand that but it did set a precedent that I can see being argued in courts in the future.
PS, I thought there was quite large public support for taking it down but the council had held back for some reason. |
There was Cat. But depends who and how you survey-
I have no doubt Loh is correct that local papers and BBC local radio showed one thing, but equally there were online and social media surveys that favoured removal. | | | |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 16:45 - Jan 7 with 1132 views | Catullus |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 16:27 - Jan 7 by Professor |
There was Cat. But depends who and how you survey-
I have no doubt Loh is correct that local papers and BBC local radio showed one thing, but equally there were online and social media surveys that favoured removal. |
I wouldn't know about social media, Prof. Apart from posting on here I don't touch it.
The council should have done it properly and had a proper survey done, a large scale one.
On a side note, I wasn't really aware of the story of Henry Stanley, besides the disputed phrase "Dr Livingston I presume" but having read about him since the Denbigh story broke, he wasn't a nice person ( as many Victorian travellers weren't to the "noble savages" of Africa) and his story deserves outing too. He owned a slave, he killed natives with impunity. many people in this country are held up as heroes still, in their time they were but in our time they are criminals. Still, we shouldn't allow vandalism, the right thing to do is remove any statue if a certain number of objections are made (1000 maybe?) and it should be put in a museum with a digital 'plaque' telling their whole story. How can we beat racism when historical racists are still being honoured?
That said, a lot of people need to pay attention to current events and vote with their wallets, as Lohengrin alluded. We stopped buying anything that obviously came from China. | |
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| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 16:53 - Jan 7 with 1126 views | Sirjohnalot |
Irrespective of the rights or wrongs in this case. She has no experience of criminal law, the QC is only due to her position, not experience. She’s exploiting this for political gain. She only comments on high profile cases when they don’t go the way the government wish them to. She’s not commented on Patel being ‘let off’ by Johnson re bullying despite the report, or the PM and his hiding the messages re his flat.
She should be politically neutral for the law, which extends to criticising the government. Nothing will come of this. Again very worrying the AG exploiting her position.
How an AG can do the job having never undertaken a criminal case is beyond me. There’s more taken in The Apprentice (oo, that started yesterday)
Edit, just found this from 2008
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/sep/10/activists.carbonemissions
Same defence used, but Zac Goldsmith a Tory donor gave evidence for the defence. Did not hear any Tories being outraged then. [Post edited 7 Jan 2022 17:06]
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| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 17:24 - Jan 7 with 1087 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 16:27 - Jan 7 by Professor |
There was Cat. But depends who and how you survey-
I have no doubt Loh is correct that local papers and BBC local radio showed one thing, but equally there were online and social media surveys that favoured removal. |
Local papers and local radio are more likely to be connecting to local people, whereas online and social media surveys are open to manipulation from any activist groups and bots. | | | |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 18:26 - Jan 7 with 1048 views | Gwyn737 |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 14:20 - Jan 7 by Boundy |
"Using this premise of extrapolation, it would suggest that after OJ was acquitted, murder became fair game."
One minor flaw in your example , the offence Simpson was alleged to have committed is that it wasn't carried out in full view of crowds , filmed by the media or in front of the police . Other than that you may have a point |
Yet both were acquitted by jury.
Again, I’m not for a minute condoning what they did. I’m just saying it’s very easy to get carried away.
It’s also ok to have causes close to your heart. The way extrapolation has been framed here is that by saying a particular thing or belief is important to you, means either you’re automatically against something else or are inconsistent as you haven’t mentioned something deemed similar. | | | |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 19:21 - Jan 7 with 1000 views | ItchySphincter |
If ever there was an example of a victimless crime this has to be it. People have their own reasons for being outraged by these people that pulled down the statue of a man that treated non-white people as sub-human. The same sort of people that were climbing over themselves to defend the actions of Chedwyn Evans, or sort that reckon george Floyd had it coming.
It was a lump of metal going in the water FFS. If people weren’t so mean spirited they would be, and should be applauding. [Post edited 7 Jan 2022 19:23]
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| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 19:25 - Jan 7 with 993 views | trampie |
Our legal system is a game, it's often what side plays the game best that wins, finding out the truth is incidental, a jury could go either way, that is why somebody found guilty might not really be guilty and somebody found innocent might not really be innocent, there is a tendency for the public to think that the jury is always correct but that is not always the case. |  |
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| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 19:41 - Jan 7 with 981 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 19:25 - Jan 7 by trampie |
Our legal system is a game, it's often what side plays the game best that wins, finding out the truth is incidental, a jury could go either way, that is why somebody found guilty might not really be guilty and somebody found innocent might not really be innocent, there is a tendency for the public to think that the jury is always correct but that is not always the case. |
I think you’re possibly correct but in nearly 20 years, I’d say juries have got it ‘what seems to be’ the right verdict most of the time.
Sometimes you don’t know yourself after hearing the witnesses giving evidence and sometime what appears strong on paper when they give evidence it is different. It is right that if you’re accused of something, those accusing should prove it.
It’s the best system, not perfect but the only real option | | | |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 20:12 - Jan 7 with 958 views | trampie |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 19:41 - Jan 7 by Sirjohnalot |
I think you’re possibly correct but in nearly 20 years, I’d say juries have got it ‘what seems to be’ the right verdict most of the time.
Sometimes you don’t know yourself after hearing the witnesses giving evidence and sometime what appears strong on paper when they give evidence it is different. It is right that if you’re accused of something, those accusing should prove it.
It’s the best system, not perfect but the only real option |
Fair comment, what gets my goat online more than anything else is that some high profile borderline cases that could go either way how lots of people are stonewall certain of guilt or innocence when it's an unknown, if the beyond reasonable doubt test has been achieved can be borderline sometimes but very few of the public realise that.
I don't have an issue with the jury system, if you are in the dock you might be lucky or unlucky jury wise it can be in the lap of the gods, heard a radio Wales programme last night talking about a famous case in Wales, a bloke was done for murder and the judge himself wrote to some bigwig saying he was surprised at the verdict and there was a retrial and he got off.
Possibly one of those that based on the evidence the test of 'beyond reasonable doubt' not achieved/borderline but whether he did it or not is another thing altogether, but did they prove it beyond reasonable doubt. | |
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| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 20:28 - Jan 7 with 943 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 20:12 - Jan 7 by trampie |
Fair comment, what gets my goat online more than anything else is that some high profile borderline cases that could go either way how lots of people are stonewall certain of guilt or innocence when it's an unknown, if the beyond reasonable doubt test has been achieved can be borderline sometimes but very few of the public realise that.
I don't have an issue with the jury system, if you are in the dock you might be lucky or unlucky jury wise it can be in the lap of the gods, heard a radio Wales programme last night talking about a famous case in Wales, a bloke was done for murder and the judge himself wrote to some bigwig saying he was surprised at the verdict and there was a retrial and he got off.
Possibly one of those that based on the evidence the test of 'beyond reasonable doubt' not achieved/borderline but whether he did it or not is another thing altogether, but did they prove it beyond reasonable doubt. |
I think in Scotland they have a ‘guilty, not guilty and not proven’.
Wording has been changed, we don’t say ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ anymore we say ‘so that you are sure ‘.
I often say to the jury ‘can you rule out the possibility that the prosecution witnesses are telling the truth or that the def is not’
You can also get a majority verdict of 10-2 but that’s only after at least 2-3 days of discussions, must be awful being convicted on a majority | | | |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 20:42 - Jan 7 with 927 views | trampie |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 20:28 - Jan 7 by Sirjohnalot |
I think in Scotland they have a ‘guilty, not guilty and not proven’.
Wording has been changed, we don’t say ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ anymore we say ‘so that you are sure ‘.
I often say to the jury ‘can you rule out the possibility that the prosecution witnesses are telling the truth or that the def is not’
You can also get a majority verdict of 10-2 but that’s only after at least 2-3 days of discussions, must be awful being convicted on a majority |
Indeed, I think Scotland still has 'not proven', may be a more accurate way of describing some outcomes in cases than just guilty or not guilty like we have down here.
Oh I don't like that 'so that you are sure' bit sounds weaker to me, I wonder could that result in more convictions in borderline cases. | |
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| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 20:52 - Jan 7 with 908 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 20:42 - Jan 7 by trampie |
Indeed, I think Scotland still has 'not proven', may be a more accurate way of describing some outcomes in cases than just guilty or not guilty like we have down here.
Oh I don't like that 'so that you are sure' bit sounds weaker to me, I wonder could that result in more convictions in borderline cases. |
Judges do explain it though, if you’re in doubt you must acquit. | | | |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 21:09 - Jan 7 with 888 views | Flashberryjack |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 20:52 - Jan 7 by Sirjohnalot |
Judges do explain it though, if you’re in doubt you must acquit. |
I thought they admitted to damaging the statue, the reasons why they damaged it should be irrelevant. | |
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| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 21:47 - Jan 7 with 853 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 20:52 - Jan 7 by Sirjohnalot |
Judges do explain it though, if you’re in doubt you must acquit. |
I didn’t think there was any doubt that that they did it?
Wasn’t their defence that they did do it, but they didn’t like what they felt the statue represented? Hardly sounds like a doubt over guilt there.
Hence the issue with the verdict.
“Victimless crime” is what student types say when they steal from the local Tesco. There is of course no such thing. That statue was made, was paid for and was displayed. All of those things take time and money - it does not give anyone the right to destroy it, whether they like it or not.
Same sort of people would be cheering on chairman Mao if they lived in that region and era. Scary. |  |
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| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 21:53 - Jan 7 with 841 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 21:47 - Jan 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
I didn’t think there was any doubt that that they did it?
Wasn’t their defence that they did do it, but they didn’t like what they felt the statue represented? Hardly sounds like a doubt over guilt there.
Hence the issue with the verdict.
“Victimless crime” is what student types say when they steal from the local Tesco. There is of course no such thing. That statue was made, was paid for and was displayed. All of those things take time and money - it does not give anyone the right to destroy it, whether they like it or not.
Same sort of people would be cheering on chairman Mao if they lived in that region and era. Scary. |
Have a look at my post above, explains it. Multiple defences were run. No idea which one the jury accepted. | | | |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 22:03 - Jan 7 with 820 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 21:53 - Jan 7 by Sirjohnalot |
Have a look at my post above, explains it. Multiple defences were run. No idea which one the jury accepted. |
But all the defences seem to be around the case of “they did it because…”
They have all admitted their part in it, including bringing ropes and climbing it to attach them to then pull down. | |
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| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 22:05 - Jan 7 with 817 views | Flashberryjack |
I'm certainly no Barrister (but I've got drunk with a few) but as far as I can see they fitted the criteria needed for a conviction.
I'd say they just got lucky with a very sympathetic jury, had I, and many others been on the jury, the outcome may have been quite different.
There's also no doubt, had the defendants been a bunch of ordinary Joe Bloggs types, the case would have been dealt with by the magistrates | |
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| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 22:10 - Jan 7 with 807 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Colston Statue vandals innocent on 13:24 - Jan 7 by ItchySphincter |
What a great post. Context has a huge part to play, unfortunately some people want it to be black and white. |
There is no context.
A crime was committed, whether the people liked the statue or not is irrelevant.
That would be the only context given for their actions. I am afraid that context should be meaningless. Just a fact. | |
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