| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 12:06 - Oct 25 with 2120 views | KeithHaynes |
Lets get stuck in to this topic folks, please read the article first though :-) Its impactive.
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 12:23 - Oct 25 with 2110 views | trampie |
English refs and officials taking charge of an English team against a Welsh team has the potential of bias against the Welsh team.
I myself have gone into it in detail over the years, you can tell any given fixture which way decisions are likely to go, the importance of the fixture, the location of the fixture, where the officials are from, the context of the match regarding sporting, world and local events, it's possible to tell most of the time what side is likely to get decisions in their favour and unfortunately Swansea and Wales are not likely to come out of most match ups well as regards on field decisions.
The small teams and nations are more likely to get the majority of wrong decisions go against them while playing against the big teams.
In modern times English refs and officials are extremely bad, they have no concept or understanding of VAR compared to their continental counter parts, one of them did a World cup final not that long ago and he ref'd by numbers, not giving a card against Holland who were out to rough up Spain until they had done lots of fouls before eventually booking a player and then as soon as Spain did one foul the card count was even'd up
, this continued with Holland getting away with Ku Fu kicks the lot, they worked out that they could foul and foul as he did not want to give a red card they ended up with virtually every outfield player booked but no sending off, in the very end he realised he was about to officiate over a travesty and started giving decisions the other way when it was nearly too late, eventually sending someone off in extra time if I remember right but it just underlined how bad officials in England are and we have to suffer them. [Post edited 25 Oct 2020 12:25]
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 12:34 - Oct 25 with 2087 views | trampie |
A third division centre forward playing for Wales breaks into the box against Germany at 0-0, Beckenbauer brings him down, refs thinks was that a pen, no can't be that Beckenbauer challenging a nobody, Wales can't be beating Germany no pen.
Welsh defender slides in and nicks the ball away from Pele in the box, Pele go's down, ref thinks that's Pele against little old Wales must be a penalty. [Post edited 25 Oct 2020 13:23]
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 12:37 - Oct 25 with 2079 views | KeithHaynes |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 12:34 - Oct 25 by trampie |
A third division centre forward playing for Wales breaks into the box against Germany at 0-0, Beckenbauer brings him down, refs thinks was that a pen, no can't be that Beckenbauer challenging a nobody, Wales can't be beating Germany no pen.
Welsh defender slides in and nicks the ball away from Pele in the box, Pele go's down, ref thinks that's Pele against little old Wales must be a penalty. [Post edited 25 Oct 2020 13:23]
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Its been happening in all our life times and more. | |
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 12:38 - Oct 25 with 2076 views | trampie |
Liverpool and Man U always get the bulk of wrong decisions in their favour over my entire time of watching the game, they get the odd one against them but the majority in their favour, I've seen the real table, where a retired ref has been sent footage of every goal and disallowed goal in a Premier League season and Liverpool and Man U come top and Swansea came bottom, I kid you not, but that was obvious to me anyway and I pride myself on being fair and unbiased. [Post edited 25 Oct 2020 13:55]
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 12:44 - Oct 25 with 2062 views | NotLoyal |
Spot on article, never ever saw itike that. |  |
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 12:46 - Oct 25 with 2060 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 12:38 - Oct 25 by trampie |
Liverpool and Man U always get the bulk of wrong decisions in their favour over my entire time of watching the game, they get the odd one against them but the majority in their favour, I've seen the real table, where a retired ref has been sent footage of every goal and disallowed goal in a Premier League season and Liverpool and Man U come top and Swansea came bottom, I kid you not, but that was obvious to me anyway and I pride myself on being fair and unbiased. [Post edited 25 Oct 2020 13:55]
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Having spent much of my working life working overseas I always as a Welshmen require people I deal with to use the correct diplomatic name for my country and other countries. Holand does not have a football team. Its "The Netherlands". The ITV "Tissedlley?" excuse that most Dutch people are happy with the word Holland is irrelevant. Most British people are happy with the UK being labelled England especially when abroad. |  |
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 12:53 - Oct 25 with 2052 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
If I was a referee I would deliberately see each team as "red" or "blue" with number identifications on their back. I do not subscribe to the touchy feely type of refereeing. I would also try to shut out the benches and not associte with one bench with a paricluar team and have no knowledge of individual names.
Players "having form" for a particular trait is not a a useful knowledge or remotely fair. I would not be popular of course and would be accused by players of "having no feal for the game". | |
| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 12:56 - Oct 25 with 2042 views | KeithHaynes |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 12:53 - Oct 25 by ReslovenSwan1 |
If I was a referee I would deliberately see each team as "red" or "blue" with number identifications on their back. I do not subscribe to the touchy feely type of refereeing. I would also try to shut out the benches and not associte with one bench with a paricluar team and have no knowledge of individual names.
Players "having form" for a particular trait is not a a useful knowledge or remotely fair. I would not be popular of course and would be accused by players of "having no feal for the game". |
Absolutely agree, but they admitted they do analyse all players and their behaviours pre match. Its appalling and falls right in to the bias trap.
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 13:06 - Oct 25 with 2023 views | trampie |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 12:37 - Oct 25 by KeithHaynes |
Its been happening in all our life times and more. |
Yes indeed, Joe Jordan punched the ball in to stop us going to the World cup finals at Anfield, we were better than them, why Anfield because ref Rudi Glockner had done us in the quarter final of the European championship against the team that was the host nation and there was a riot as a consequence and we were banned and had to play in a foreign country. | |
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 13:14 - Oct 25 with 2013 views | trampie |
You have what I call 'career refs' who don't want to be associated with an upset, they don't want to upset Alex Ferguson, or Wenger or Mourinho so it's bad news for Swansea to come up against 'career refs', the phrase 'homer ref' is well known as they get influenced by the crowd. [Post edited 25 Oct 2020 13:20]
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 13:17 - Oct 25 with 2009 views | Fireboy2 |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 12:56 - Oct 25 by KeithHaynes |
Absolutely agree, but they admitted they do analyse all players and their behaviours pre match. Its appalling and falls right in to the bias trap.
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That's correct Keith, refs should ref each and every game fairly and equally but I suspect for the top refs reffing PL and european games they cant get away from knowing about the overpaid prima donnas. |  | | |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 13:22 - Oct 25 with 2004 views | KeithHaynes |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 13:06 - Oct 25 by trampie |
Yes indeed, Joe Jordan punched the ball in to stop us going to the World cup finals at Anfield, we were better than them, why Anfield because ref Rudi Glockner had done us in the quarter final of the European championship against the team that was the host nation and there was a riot as a consequence and we were banned and had to play in a foreign country. |
I was at both of those games, the anfield game put Scotland fans in a different light it was mayhem afterwards. And yes, the 1976 game at Ninian was the first time i had seen jacks and Cardiff together, the ref surely had to be on an earner that day. I was on the bob bank having travelled up from Pembroke with about 60 or so other swans fans. The whole thing for a young swans fan was an experience. That still ranks as my top bent ref game. Mind you when Forest were going for their third European cup in the quarter final the ref was bought, he admitted it just before he died. Now Juve, threes a club of cloudy characters. | |
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 13:45 - Oct 25 with 1987 views | onehunglow |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 13:22 - Oct 25 by KeithHaynes |
I was at both of those games, the anfield game put Scotland fans in a different light it was mayhem afterwards. And yes, the 1976 game at Ninian was the first time i had seen jacks and Cardiff together, the ref surely had to be on an earner that day. I was on the bob bank having travelled up from Pembroke with about 60 or so other swans fans. The whole thing for a young swans fan was an experience. That still ranks as my top bent ref game. Mind you when Forest were going for their third European cup in the quarter final the ref was bought, he admitted it just before he died. Now Juve, threes a club of cloudy characters. |
Wish you hadnt dragged up those games.That Joe Jordan game ffs |  |
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 13:49 - Oct 25 with 1983 views | KeithHaynes |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 13:45 - Oct 25 by onehunglow |
Wish you hadnt dragged up those games.That Joe Jordan game ffs |
I was right in front of that it was so obvious. But then.
They had the same luck at ninian a few years later.
I remember Jock Stein etc.
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 13:59 - Oct 25 with 1966 views | NotLoyal |
Wales certainly robbed on jumerous occasions. | |
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 13:59 - Oct 25 with 1963 views | onehunglow |
Me too.
Its good to share pain | |
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 17:29 - Oct 25 with 1883 views | krunchykarrot |
I was there for JJ handball, it was insane. Taking this a bit further Ayew didnt help situation either bipping continuously at the ref he needs to chill. Has looked out of sorts and slow one paced etc last couple of games, started chasing lost causes to GK putting himself out of the game. |  | | |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 17:49 - Oct 25 with 1878 views | Treforys_Jack |
Man City in the FA Cup still gets my back up, guaranteed to put me in a bad mood whenever I think of it. Irrational dislike of the club, the fans and their oh so tactically god like manager. Just feck off is it. |  | | |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 13:18 - Oct 26 with 1757 views | MartinSwan |
Excellent article, however I take issue with the comments on unconscious bias. It's not what is described in the article, what is described might be called something like Subliminal bias, something you take in from the world around.
Unconscious bias, is exactly that unconscious, so by definition nothing can be done about it because you are completely unaware of it at a conscious level. Indeed even saying unconscious bias exists cannot be known but only assumed probably as a result of the subliminal or unconscious bias of the individual making the assertion. |  | | |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 13:36 - Oct 26 with 1744 views | KeithHaynes |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 13:18 - Oct 26 by MartinSwan |
Excellent article, however I take issue with the comments on unconscious bias. It's not what is described in the article, what is described might be called something like Subliminal bias, something you take in from the world around.
Unconscious bias, is exactly that unconscious, so by definition nothing can be done about it because you are completely unaware of it at a conscious level. Indeed even saying unconscious bias exists cannot be known but only assumed probably as a result of the subliminal or unconscious bias of the individual making the assertion. |
Read it through again mate :-) | |
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 14:01 - Oct 26 with 1729 views | MartinSwan |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 13:36 - Oct 26 by KeithHaynes |
Read it through again mate :-) |
I have read it and now re-read it.
It's not your article that is the issue, its the definition often used but by its nature is incorrect.
"Unconscious biases are social stereotypes about certain groups of people that individuals form outside their own conscious awareness. Everyone holds unconscious beliefs about various social and identity groups, and these biases stem from one’s tendency to organise social worlds by categorising."
This is what is known as a self justifying definition but no less incorrect.
An unconscious bias, if it exists, is unconscious therefore by its nature the individual is unaware of any bias, so how does the psychologist know its exists nevermind being able to say it is social stereotype.
Well they use what is known as Implicit Association Test which is a fast response to images flashed in front of the recipient. This test has been debunked over recent years where even the supporters of the test have been forced to admit it probably doesnt measure unconscious bias.
This was found out by people taking the measure more than once yet coming up with completely opposite outcomes. | | | |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 14:10 - Oct 26 with 1724 views | MartinSwan |
For those of you of a science fiction inclination, this concept of unconscious bias is very much like being accused of a pre-crime, from Phillip K Dick's short story 'Minority Report'.
No crime has been commited but you are guilt because some supposed 'infalible group of individuals' can see the future and have seen the future where you were guilt of commiting the crime.
You must be guilt because this group say you are.
I prefer real scientific evidence, arather than the opinion of those who say they are right but can't back it up with reliable evidence. | | | |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 16:59 - Oct 26 with 1686 views | NotLoyal |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 14:10 - Oct 26 by MartinSwan |
For those of you of a science fiction inclination, this concept of unconscious bias is very much like being accused of a pre-crime, from Phillip K Dick's short story 'Minority Report'.
No crime has been commited but you are guilt because some supposed 'infalible group of individuals' can see the future and have seen the future where you were guilt of commiting the crime.
You must be guilt because this group say you are.
I prefer real scientific evidence, arather than the opinion of those who say they are right but can't back it up with reliable evidence. |
The referees in the case study agreed they were guilty of unconscious bias when presented with the facts, sub whatever bias that you talk about isn’t even a human biological process or reference point in professional study. Even I know that and I’m thick.
As for science fiction, jeez 🤪 | |
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| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 17:20 - Oct 26 with 1679 views | MartinSwan |
| Sunday Supplement : Getting inside the referee’s head on 16:59 - Oct 26 by NotLoyal |
The referees in the case study agreed they were guilty of unconscious bias when presented with the facts, sub whatever bias that you talk about isn’t even a human biological process or reference point in professional study. Even I know that and I’m thick.
As for science fiction, jeez 🤪 |
If its unconscious bias how would you know? The test they use, since about 1998 has been proven not to work, so what evidence of their unconscious bias could they have been presented with.
From the article the evidence used apparently was an interview. They were asked questions in an interview. I dont know about you but I tend to be conscious when talking to people, except in a few rare occaisions down the pub.
Perhaps the interviewer took them down the pub in an attempt to get through to their unconscious. | | | |
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