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Out of interest, can anyone bullet point what would be considered Labour 'true/core values' and what would be the same for the Conservatives.
As has been covered on here many times, if you're ever so slightly left or right of centre you're a raging commie or fascist respectively. For example, people mention the word 'socialist' as though it's some extreme left wing principle when in fact it's fairly centre I believe and things like the NHS, free milk at school, state schools etc are good examples of socialism and I guess we are all happy with those.
Then you have the additions of both parties seemingly moving further to their extremes.
I'd genuinely like to know what are considered those core values, maybe in some hope they may come back.
I don’t know what Labour’s core values are anymore but this is where they sync:
- Both committed to Austerity - Both committed to centralised state / pro Union - Both free market - Both low tax, low spending - Both anti trade Union - Both pro Militarism - Both pro establishment - Both pro Capital (a given really as no one has campaigned on system reform since 1920s)
That’s my take anyway. Labour are positioning themselves as Tory values but nicer at the moment. The Lib Dems and Greens too in some degree so it’s a crowded market. SNP the same, minus the backing of state and Union.
Labour have suspended / removed the whip from councillors recently in Scotland and Liverpool who have refuse to introduce austerity or work with Tories (rather than independents and the SNP). If Labour aren’t anti Tory, what is the point?
I am of course bias because my particular wing of the party is being demonised but it’s all still true.
[Post edited 13 Jul 2022 11:23]
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 11:26 - Jul 13 with 1776 views
Out of interest, can anyone bullet point what would be considered Labour 'true/core values' and what would be the same for the Conservatives.
As has been covered on here many times, if you're ever so slightly left or right of centre you're a raging commie or fascist respectively. For example, people mention the word 'socialist' as though it's some extreme left wing principle when in fact it's fairly centre I believe and things like the NHS, free milk at school, state schools etc are good examples of socialism and I guess we are all happy with those.
Then you have the additions of both parties seemingly moving further to their extremes.
I'd genuinely like to know what are considered those core values, maybe in some hope they may come back.
Observing current trends it seems to me that Government policy seems to be totally focused on creating a framework that is tailored for big business. Creating a cheap to run public sector that encourages investment by the private sector to extract large profits for their shareholders.
Missed my point entirely on the grooming gang comment. It's that certain people bring that up all the time when it isn't relevant to the discussion. Saying that isn't the same as approving of it, settle down. Same with the other subjects listed, always being brought up when not relevant and some people are seemingly obsessed with these topics.
I also didn't say everyone who votes Tory is a brexit fanatic, but there are quite a lot of those among our online support. Maybe moreso on Facebook/Twitter than here.
Well some of us actually grew up in the areas and during the era, some of us went to school with some of these girls, some of us knew this was going on for years before the whistleblowers were finally listened to. Couldn't say anything back then though, because people would assume you must be some sort of Nick Griffin supporter or something. Sorry if I seem obsessed, I'm really not, but I am still angry about it, and I often voice that anger in the midst of conversations about politics because it's one of the ways I feel my generation was most let down.
How much evidence do you need of something before you stop accusing people of being racist and start listening to them?
"Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 11:48 - Jul 13 with 1678 views
Bye bye bye Johnson on 11:32 - Jul 13 by SheffieldHoop
Well some of us actually grew up in the areas and during the era, some of us went to school with some of these girls, some of us knew this was going on for years before the whistleblowers were finally listened to. Couldn't say anything back then though, because people would assume you must be some sort of Nick Griffin supporter or something. Sorry if I seem obsessed, I'm really not, but I am still angry about it, and I often voice that anger in the midst of conversations about politics because it's one of the ways I feel my generation was most let down.
How much evidence do you need of something before you stop accusing people of being racist and start listening to them?
This is a football forum.
Do you think the majority of us aren’t white working class men?
I’m always suspicious of people who need to say it to be honest.
Other than chiding anyone who uses the word ‘racist’ I’m genuinely interested in what your answer to your / society’s problems are? As in genuine policy.
[Post edited 13 Jul 2022 11:57]
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 11:56 - Jul 13 with 1600 views
Do you think the majority of us aren’t white working class men?
I’m always suspicious of people who need to say it to be honest.
Other than chiding anyone who uses the word ‘racist’ I’m genuinely interested in what your answer to your / society’s problems are? As in genuine policy.
[Post edited 13 Jul 2022 11:57]
I was answering Sydney's point specifically - I have no desire to get into this with you today. Maybe we can do it over a pint one time, then you can look me in the eye and realise I'm not a bullshitter
"Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 11:57 - Jul 13 with 1638 views
Out of interest, can anyone bullet point what would be considered Labour 'true/core values' and what would be the same for the Conservatives.
As has been covered on here many times, if you're ever so slightly left or right of centre you're a raging commie or fascist respectively. For example, people mention the word 'socialist' as though it's some extreme left wing principle when in fact it's fairly centre I believe and things like the NHS, free milk at school, state schools etc are good examples of socialism and I guess we are all happy with those.
Then you have the additions of both parties seemingly moving further to their extremes.
I'd genuinely like to know what are considered those core values, maybe in some hope they may come back.
One core difference between the two parties has been the Tories are committed to a smaller state, defining this as being about individual responsibility, freedom from red tape, enabling private enterprise etc. Labour is committed to a larger state, defined as being about providing social safety nets, protecting rights and enabling public services etc.
My belief is that while capitalism continues to be the dominant economic system, a large state is necessary to mitigate rampant inequality and hold back more poverty being created. However, I also believe the nation state is one of the key problems in the way the modern world operates. My aspirational hope is that one day humanity will organise itself differently and without nation states - that is if humanity is still around in the future.
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 12:20 - Jul 13 with 1602 views
Bye bye bye Johnson on 11:56 - Jul 13 by SheffieldHoop
I was answering Sydney's point specifically - I have no desire to get into this with you today. Maybe we can do it over a pint one time, then you can look me in the eye and realise I'm not a bullshitter
I’m sure you’re not a bullshitter, and I’m certain that you are genuine in your beliefs, but other than being angry at being called a racist (which I don’t ever recall you ever being called) what are your beliefs? What’s the solution? For what it’s worth I agree in principle to elements of what you say.
Don’t get me wrong, I have niche views too, but I do my best to back them up without employing sock puppets or divert the conversation to ‘I grew up in a council house / my girlfriend is Black so I should know’. The majority of us grew up that way.
Have a debate, and if it gets heated so be it. We’re all mostly adults.
If you genuinely don’t use sick puppet accounts then I apologise but some of the appearance and disappearance of certain accounts seem very suspicious to me, and I’m not the only one.
Bye bye bye Johnson on 11:32 - Jul 13 by SheffieldHoop
Well some of us actually grew up in the areas and during the era, some of us went to school with some of these girls, some of us knew this was going on for years before the whistleblowers were finally listened to. Couldn't say anything back then though, because people would assume you must be some sort of Nick Griffin supporter or something. Sorry if I seem obsessed, I'm really not, but I am still angry about it, and I often voice that anger in the midst of conversations about politics because it's one of the ways I feel my generation was most let down.
How much evidence do you need of something before you stop accusing people of being racist and start listening to them?
I don't doubt any of that, but it is often used to try and suggest that this sort of stuff is only done by certain ethnicities which is complete and utter nonsense. Scumbags come in all colours and creeds.
Its when completely unrelated topics get interrupted by "what about the grooming gangs" style posts/comments that I was on about.
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 12:29 - Jul 13 with 1502 views
I’m sure you’re not a bullshitter, and I’m certain that you are genuine in your beliefs, but other than being angry at being called a racist (which I don’t ever recall you ever being called) what are your beliefs? What’s the solution? For what it’s worth I agree in principle to elements of what you say.
Don’t get me wrong, I have niche views too, but I do my best to back them up without employing sock puppets or divert the conversation to ‘I grew up in a council house / my girlfriend is Black so I should know’. The majority of us grew up that way.
Have a debate, and if it gets heated so be it. We’re all mostly adults.
If you genuinely don’t use sick puppet accounts then I apologise but some of the appearance and disappearance of certain accounts seem very suspicious to me, and I’m not the only one.
That's not my argument though. So as ever, you're being dishonest and trying to misrepresent my argument.
I bought up my girlfriend in the context of racial abuse, specifically in an anecdote about the only racial abuse either of us had ever received in the UK. During a time when UK society was being characterised as irredeemably racist. I wasn't bought up in a council house so not sure where you've got that from. I currently live in an ex-council flat but I am a leaseholder.
Perhaps you wouldn't be so offended by my posts if you didn't start reading them with so many misconceptions in your head.
"Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 12:51 - Jul 13 with 1435 views
I don't doubt any of that, but it is often used to try and suggest that this sort of stuff is only done by certain ethnicities which is complete and utter nonsense. Scumbags come in all colours and creeds.
Its when completely unrelated topics get interrupted by "what about the grooming gangs" style posts/comments that I was on about.
Yeah, some of those "What about the grooming gangs" comments probably would've been from me - Because actually, it's still ongoing, it's still hugely relevant, and young people are still being let down by mostly Labour-run councils and social services.
Sorry if that's inconvenient when you're trying to hammer home a point about the Tories' ineptitude - But it's only fair that we also highlight Labour's monumental failures.
"Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 13:05 - Jul 13 with 1449 views
I don't doubt any of that, but it is often used to try and suggest that this sort of stuff is only done by certain ethnicities which is complete and utter nonsense. Scumbags come in all colours and creeds.
Its when completely unrelated topics get interrupted by "what about the grooming gangs" style posts/comments that I was on about.
Sadly your 'grooming gangs' comments weren't well timed. This came out yesterday, and whatever your political persuasion, I'm sure you'll agree it exposes many of the things that are wrong with our society:
"Over 1,000 girls abused and raped by Asian gangs while police looked the other way.
More than a thousand girls were sexually abused by gangs of Asian men in Telford while police dropped cases like a “hot potato” for fear of inflaming racial tensions, a damning report has found.
For at least 30 years, abusers in the Shropshire town “thrived” as their appalling crimes went unchecked by the authorities, who were more concerned about political correctness.
An investigation - commissioned in 2018 - accused those whose job it was to protect children of repeatedly “turning a blind eye” and “ignoring obvious signs of child sexual exploitation”.
The results of the three-year inquiry laid bare how vulnerable children were targeted by men - often local taxi drivers - who bought them alcohol and cigarettes before convincing them they were in loving relationships.
After “brainwashing them”, they then abused and raped them, issuing death threats if they threatened to expose the abuse.
Witnesses told an inquiry how West Mercia Police had appeared “frightened to question or challenge because they didn’t want to have the finger pointed at them, saying they were being racist”.
In its findings, the report said the force’s decisions were impacted by “fear of complaint” or “because of concern about the impact... on racial tensions”."
So this isn't a tired old meme, unfortunately it's a reality. It exposes deep, systemic problems with how the whole racism issue has been handled, and continue to be handled. And the denial about these issues having any relationship to particular cultures is part of those problems.
Bye bye bye Johnson on 12:51 - Jul 13 by SheffieldHoop
Yeah, some of those "What about the grooming gangs" comments probably would've been from me - Because actually, it's still ongoing, it's still hugely relevant, and young people are still being let down by mostly Labour-run councils and social services.
Sorry if that's inconvenient when you're trying to hammer home a point about the Tories' ineptitude - But it's only fair that we also highlight Labour's monumental failures.
It is an ongoing concern but is hardly relevant to the OP. And, for reasons I won't disclose, probably know more than those reacting to media headlines.
If you want to start a general political thread to slag off either main party, then go ahead. Northern can then turn it off when it gets out of hand.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 13:18 - Jul 13 with 1399 views
Bye bye bye Johnson on 13:06 - Jul 13 by derbyhoop
It is an ongoing concern but is hardly relevant to the OP. And, for reasons I won't disclose, probably know more than those reacting to media headlines.
If you want to start a general political thread to slag off either main party, then go ahead. Northern can then turn it off when it gets out of hand.
Follow the conversation. Sydney seemed to be speaking quite generally and very vaguely - Not sure he meant on this particular thread.
Isn't that essentially how all political threads on here start? Someone says "What about those evil Tories, eh?" - Gets a load of responses from the usual crowd calling anyone who votes Conservative Immoral, thick, gullible, stupid.....Until eventually someone decides to have a go back. Sometimes they're masters of the art like Discodroids, other times they're about as eloquent as Connell10 is about us. If you don't want partisan political threads, stop posting partisan opinions on political threads. The right-wingers amongst us seem to manage it, up to a point. Why can't you lot?
"Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 13:56 - Jul 13 with 1290 views
In the Graun yesterday, one commenter suggested that choosing one of the standing candidates is rather like choosing a portaloo at Glastonbury on a Monday morning.
I wanted to share that.
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 14:29 - Jul 13 with 1208 views
For my own part it looks to me like the UK (as long as that entity exists) has serious structural problems. We have had low growth for a very long time and our spending has exceeded that. Arguments about Brexit are fairly pointless as everyone is well dug in to their own foxholes on that and some bloke on a football message board is not going to change that.
We are falling behind in living standards and income in comparison to almost all western economies. There is going to be massive short term pain this winter which no one seems ready for. The population is aging and lots of wealth is locked in to that older generation so not much of it is being used for wealth creation. Inflation is a wealth destroyer and no sign of any constructive solutions to that which seems to tick up each month.
Even if Northern's old friend Bun the baker gets to be PM I am not sure what that person does about it. Our politics - to me on all sides - looks a bit bereft of ideas to address this stuff. I am not clever enough to suggest the solutions but I can see the problems. I cant be arsed with the culture war stuff because to me it is just a distraction from the real problems and allows politicians to retreat to something comfortable.
The country has been in a hole before and come out of it of course but the apparent lack of anyone offering any solutions at present worries me.
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 14:48 - Jul 13 with 1143 views
For my own part it looks to me like the UK (as long as that entity exists) has serious structural problems. We have had low growth for a very long time and our spending has exceeded that. Arguments about Brexit are fairly pointless as everyone is well dug in to their own foxholes on that and some bloke on a football message board is not going to change that.
We are falling behind in living standards and income in comparison to almost all western economies. There is going to be massive short term pain this winter which no one seems ready for. The population is aging and lots of wealth is locked in to that older generation so not much of it is being used for wealth creation. Inflation is a wealth destroyer and no sign of any constructive solutions to that which seems to tick up each month.
Even if Northern's old friend Bun the baker gets to be PM I am not sure what that person does about it. Our politics - to me on all sides - looks a bit bereft of ideas to address this stuff. I am not clever enough to suggest the solutions but I can see the problems. I cant be arsed with the culture war stuff because to me it is just a distraction from the real problems and allows politicians to retreat to something comfortable.
The country has been in a hole before and come out of it of course but the apparent lack of anyone offering any solutions at present worries me.
I think you could make a case that this situation is duplicated in countries around the whole world. And I think the main cause is Covid. Yeh, we have some unique issues at home, but the core problems such as workforce resourcing are the same almost everywhere.
"Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 14:52 - Jul 13 with 1156 views
For my own part it looks to me like the UK (as long as that entity exists) has serious structural problems. We have had low growth for a very long time and our spending has exceeded that. Arguments about Brexit are fairly pointless as everyone is well dug in to their own foxholes on that and some bloke on a football message board is not going to change that.
We are falling behind in living standards and income in comparison to almost all western economies. There is going to be massive short term pain this winter which no one seems ready for. The population is aging and lots of wealth is locked in to that older generation so not much of it is being used for wealth creation. Inflation is a wealth destroyer and no sign of any constructive solutions to that which seems to tick up each month.
Even if Northern's old friend Bun the baker gets to be PM I am not sure what that person does about it. Our politics - to me on all sides - looks a bit bereft of ideas to address this stuff. I am not clever enough to suggest the solutions but I can see the problems. I cant be arsed with the culture war stuff because to me it is just a distraction from the real problems and allows politicians to retreat to something comfortable.
The country has been in a hole before and come out of it of course but the apparent lack of anyone offering any solutions at present worries me.
You’re last paragraph is very profound.
This country, as any and despite who is in charge, will make mistakes in its governance and policy, it has issues with the perceived haves and have not, with different tribes and keeping the majority content with a minority of agency.
The issue right now is, where is the hope? The hope for a positive change? The hope for a change in narrative, the hope that this is the right place to live our lives?
Also, why do people talk about class like it is an actual measurable construct in today’s UK? It’s a load of old rubbish that can’t be defined anymore.
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 14:53 - Jul 13 with 1153 views
I find it fascinating that in 16 pages of debate, the LibDems have barely been mentioned, let alone had a poster hold forth on the positives - or negatives - they might offer the country.
I'm a socialist so I won't be banging the drum for them, though.
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 15:12 - Jul 13 with 1115 views
Bye bye bye Johnson on 14:53 - Jul 13 by R_from_afar
I find it fascinating that in 16 pages of debate, the LibDems have barely been mentioned, let alone had a poster hold forth on the positives - or negatives - they might offer the country.
I'm a socialist so I won't be banging the drum for them, though.
The Lib Dems goose remains well cooked even after 12 years when they propped up the Tories to get a taste of power in the 2010 election. They usually get a bit of tactical voter support in by-elections, as they did recently, but haven't recovered from that disastrous decision.
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 15:12 - Jul 13 with 1113 views
Can’s say I disagree with about Labour not walking the walk.
At the moment the party apparatus is forcing out a Hijabi MP by propagating racially tinged smears after she won a court case against her abusive ex husband his which isn’t well known.
Bearing in mind the treatment you in particular gave Diane Abbott (first black female MP, and Cambridge graduate) over a TV gaffe, I don’t think Labour should be taking any lectures from you.
[Post edited 13 Jul 2022 10:11]
Think you’re missing the point with your last paragraph Baz or maybe reinforcing what I said earlier.
As you well know, I gave plenty of stick about Corbyn and his cronies, just as much as Diane Abbott, colour is totally irrelevant. And this is where Labour gets it wrong time and time again. Clearly you only see my criticism of white members of the far left as just that, criticism, whereas my criticism of Abbott your first thought is it’s colour related. Somehow you need to get past that.
I thought David Lammy had a chance years back, instead his career seems to have manifested itself into getting carted onto news programmes only when there’s an issue of colour to comment on.
Why is that? Why is he not put forward by Labour to talk more often on the economy, education? Unfortunately the Labour Party seems to be consumed by stereotype and by the sounds of it you won’t be changing anytime soon either.
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 15:23 - Jul 13 with 1053 views
The Lib Dems goose remains well cooked even after 12 years when they propped up the Tories to get a taste of power in the 2010 election. They usually get a bit of tactical voter support in by-elections, as they did recently, but haven't recovered from that disastrous decision.
They've had many opportunities to recover from 2010 but they blow it every time. First becoming obsessed with the EU post-Brexit, went down that path, took no one with them, now taken another left and gone down the path of Trans rights. Again, taking nobody with them.
Best of luck to them but, it's all a bit embarrassing isn't it.
"Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius
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Bye bye bye Johnson on 15:24 - Jul 13 with 2958 views
Sadly your 'grooming gangs' comments weren't well timed. This came out yesterday, and whatever your political persuasion, I'm sure you'll agree it exposes many of the things that are wrong with our society:
"Over 1,000 girls abused and raped by Asian gangs while police looked the other way.
More than a thousand girls were sexually abused by gangs of Asian men in Telford while police dropped cases like a “hot potato” for fear of inflaming racial tensions, a damning report has found.
For at least 30 years, abusers in the Shropshire town “thrived” as their appalling crimes went unchecked by the authorities, who were more concerned about political correctness.
An investigation - commissioned in 2018 - accused those whose job it was to protect children of repeatedly “turning a blind eye” and “ignoring obvious signs of child sexual exploitation”.
The results of the three-year inquiry laid bare how vulnerable children were targeted by men - often local taxi drivers - who bought them alcohol and cigarettes before convincing them they were in loving relationships.
After “brainwashing them”, they then abused and raped them, issuing death threats if they threatened to expose the abuse.
Witnesses told an inquiry how West Mercia Police had appeared “frightened to question or challenge because they didn’t want to have the finger pointed at them, saying they were being racist”.
In its findings, the report said the force’s decisions were impacted by “fear of complaint” or “because of concern about the impact... on racial tensions”."
So this isn't a tired old meme, unfortunately it's a reality. It exposes deep, systemic problems with how the whole racism issue has been handled, and continue to be handled. And the denial about these issues having any relationship to particular cultures is part of those problems.
And some received prosecutions as child prostitutes. Yes child abuse occurs from every race and colour it’s obvious that the high profile cases recently brought to light are from a certain religion and went unchecked for fear of being called a racist or a. Islamphobe, totally shocking and along with catholic priests and Jimmy saville should all have had their bollocks chopped off.
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
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