| Grammar Schools 22:17 - Sep 8 with 29007 views | texasranger |
I can't help feeling that much of the currently fashionable condemnation of grammar schools is based on two false premises; that they are socially divisive, and that kids who failed the old 11-plus were branded as 'failures'. I'm an old geezer now who went to a boys only grammar school in the early 1950's but we had all sorts there, bright academics through to some right tearaways. I was just a boy from a working class family but I enjoyed and benefited from grammar school though not enough to go to university, doing two years National service instead, but my mates outside school were a mixture of Secondary Modern, Technical and Grammar school boys. We got along fine and theTech and S/Modern boys went on to become printers, plumbers, builders and engineers, all of whom I suspect made more money than I did. Surely any school regardless of type will grade kids by ability and attempting to force kids of different backgrounds to socialise will not work. Finally, condemning today's grammar schools on account of the number of kids getting free school meals seems totally irrelevant. I realise I may be the only surviving Rangers supporter who went to a grammar school so if I get any response I expect it to be unfavourable. No matter. Come on you RRRRRRRRRR's ! |  | | |  |
| Grammar Schools on 12:48 - Sep 9 with 2565 views | hopphoops |
In the spirit of this fascinating thread. I'll own up that i went to private boarding school. There, I've said it now. It was affordable because I got a scholarship / bursary which made me part of a sort of lower-upper-middle-class subset whose (mainly teacher) parents had hothoused them through the exams.
There was lots that was good about the school I went to in terms of the possibilities in so many areas. Anyone with any inclination towards art, sport, theatre as well as academics got the chance to shine. Everything was streamed with promotion and relegation every year in every subject, but there wasn't undue academic pressure and there was a very open attitude to people's differences.
And whatever anyone says, it was great living away from home, who wouldn't want to live with people of their own age rather than their parents? And it does build social skills and self-confidence.
In never seemed like the real world to me, and it wasn't. But most of my more privileged schoolmates took the two theatres, multi-million art and design centre, golf course, swimming pool, gym, squash courts, two 400 metre running tracks, two shooting ranges, 30-odd playing fields etc etc for granted.
And many of them have gone on to hold public office without ever seeming to recognize that their experience was not typical. They probably have colleagues from grammar schools, which supports their notion that success comes just as easily to "poorer" people with the right attitude.
But the fact remains that these people are making policies, even if not overtly to protect the privilege they inherited, then at least on behalf of a majority of people they have nothing in common with. Investing more in the worst schools in Scunthorpe doesn't tend to come to their mind.
And, as mentioned above, my school was a charity - not a penny of tax going to support one other less lucky fukcers education, despite (in fact because of) its nominally religious role.
Should these schools be closed down? No, they should be places where every pupil in the country gets to go for one or two months for a school + something spell. The something could be swimming or sound engineering or English literature or whatever. There would be competition for places, particularly on more desirable courses. Everyone would get some time away from home, get out of their immediate environment and be incentivized to find at least one thing they're good at.
PS No-one tried to bugger me or give me so much as a cheeky wink throughout my schooling. I'm still coming to terms with the enduring sense of rejection... [Post edited 9 Sep 2016 12:55]
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| Grammar Schools on 12:49 - Sep 9 with 2562 views | ElHoop |
Someone was banging on about property prices in grammar school areas. You mean Slough? Blimey.
I think that you'll find that property prices are just as expensive in the catchment areas for the better non-selective schools in non-selective areas.
When they abolished the grammar schools, or most of them, they did it for the best of intentions. But they didn't replace that system with something better - it was worse - in terms of output it's more unfair and so now there's more inequality than there was before they did it. |  | | |
| Grammar Schools on 12:51 - Sep 9 with 2552 views | simmo |
| Grammar Schools on 11:11 - Sep 9 by Konk |
Clive, your school sounds on a par with mine; although I spent five years largely fannying around and had a great time.
We had something like 200+ kids in my year, around a dozen did A-levels and 6 went to university/poly. I was in the top group for everything through school, and yet no-one ever mentioned A-levels, university etc, and because my parents weren’t from that sort of background, I just left school at 16 like all my mates, with the vague ambition of getting a job in an office. My old school still comes bottom of the local authorities league table, so it’s nice to know it’s still a centre of academic excellence.
My wife, by contrast, went to a Grammar school in Warwickshire, where 3 kids in the entire year didn’t go to university and kids knew from an early age that they needed get good grades to get on. I had plenty of bright friends at secondary school who left at 16 with 4-5 GCSEs and I can’t help but wonder how they’d have fared at a school where you were expected to succeed rather than expected to leave at the earliest opportunity, hopefully without having caused too much trouble during your five year stretch.
I’ve got no complaints about how my life’s panned out to date — I’ve always been a bit lazy, I’ve generally messed about rather than applying myself, so it’s going about as well as could be expected in terms of career/earnings etc, but if there’s one thing I envy a bit from my circle of friends, it’s the fact that when I was young it never occurred to me that I could do something more interesting as an adult if I applied myself and had a bit of direction. I could have been the first astronaut in my family, for fu ck’s sake.
The nearest “outstanding” comprehensive school to us now, has a catchment area that is overwhelmingly made up of £1.2m+ 3 bedroom houses and £700K 2 bedroom flats, so it’s effectively a private school anyway. At least if it was a grammar, working class kids a mile or two away would have a chance of getting in, although as nix says, the private tutor boom has really changed things in that regard. |
You've absolutely fckin nailed me in that thread, Konk. This is almost, to the letter, my own experience. When I first started in my school it was a relatively good CofE place, but by the time I got into 2nd/3rd year we were on special measures which meant we took all the kids expelled from every other school in north london. It was classed as one of the worst in the country by the time I left and closed down shortly after. But I quite liked it, it made all of us as mates there really close cos it was a bit of a jungle in there and we needed each other. It means that all my best mates now are the same people, which in my experience is not the case for most others.
The main thing though, and I am pleased that someone else managed to describe it where I couldn't, is the further education/university thing. Pretty much everybody I know now has a degree or went to uni, I am the only one in my office of 50 odd that hasn't. I didn't understand why until I thought about it quite recently and it was simply because nobody told me I could go if I wanted to. Nobody in my family had ever been before and it was an alien thing to me that was out of reach. Looking back I am gutted I wasn't afforded the opportunity because now I am 31 and know what I am good at, I am hamstrung by my lack of academics and the lack o direction early on in life.
"I’ve got no complaints about how my life’s panned out to date — I’ve always been a bit lazy, I’ve generally messed about rather than applying myself, so it’s going about as well as could be expected in terms of career/earnings etc, but if there’s one thing I envy a bit from my circle of friends, it’s the fact that when I was young it never occurred to me that I could do something more interesting as an adult if I applied myself and had a bit of direction". GET OUT OF MY HEAD YOU BASTARD. |  |
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| Grammar Schools on 12:52 - Sep 9 with 2550 views | Discodroids |
I remember Sir Ian Mckellen visiting my school lister comp in plaistow, around 1981 to impart his memoirs in morning assembly of being Violently jacked off by Joe Orton as a youth into the cracked armitage shanks of a parks public toilet. I remember we all sung a hymn after as well.
looking back, it may have been more advantageous for me to have learned my logarithm tables or about Crop rotation in the 16th century.
still got the dartboard i made in 5th form though, so it wasn't all wasted. [Post edited 9 Sep 2016 13:08]
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| Grammar Schools on 12:55 - Sep 9 with 2541 views | A40Bosh |
| Grammar Schools on 12:49 - Sep 9 by ElHoop |
Someone was banging on about property prices in grammar school areas. You mean Slough? Blimey.
I think that you'll find that property prices are just as expensive in the catchment areas for the better non-selective schools in non-selective areas.
When they abolished the grammar schools, or most of them, they did it for the best of intentions. But they didn't replace that system with something better - it was worse - in terms of output it's more unfair and so now there's more inequality than there was before they did it. |
"Someone was banging on about property prices in grammar school areas. You mean Slough? Blimey."
However, Slough Grammar School and St Bernard Catholic Grammar school in Langley extend their catchment area beyond Slough Town Centre out into the expensive areas surrounding Slough and therefore every estate agent sat anywhere in those catchment areas will play on that when justifying stupid house prices.
First one I searched on
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/Langley/3-bed-houses.html |  |
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| Grammar Schools on 12:58 - Sep 9 with 2528 views | Antti_Heinola |
It's a tough one, and I sympathise with Clive's viewpoint that makes a lot of sense.
I was at a secondary for two years before Grammar and didn't enjoy it (although it's a far better school now, I understand, than it was then). I liked Grammar better, but as I've got older I've gone more and more against them.
They simply are elitist. We were constantly told we were 'the cream'. We were given better opportunities because at 13 years old we achieved better grades than others. That simply can't be right. Clive makes a good point, but not *all* kids left behind were wasters who didn't care (which is a dangerous route to go down anyway - you can't just abandon kids because you feel like they don't care - what kind of society is that? Especially at that young age) - and suddenly they're even more disadvantaged.
Grammars make no sense to me. the one I was at was full of arrogant, sneery pupils that were a direct product of believing they were 'better' than kids who didn't make it to Grammar. That can't be healthy. I was a working class kid there, but one of the very few - the school heaped more privilege on the already privileged. I'd never end my kids to one. There has to be a better solution than this lazy look back to 1970s thinking. |  |
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| Grammar Schools on 13:06 - Sep 9 with 2499 views | ElHoop |
| Grammar Schools on 12:55 - Sep 9 by A40Bosh |
"Someone was banging on about property prices in grammar school areas. You mean Slough? Blimey."
However, Slough Grammar School and St Bernard Catholic Grammar school in Langley extend their catchment area beyond Slough Town Centre out into the expensive areas surrounding Slough and therefore every estate agent sat anywhere in those catchment areas will play on that when justifying stupid house prices.
First one I searched on
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/Langley/3-bed-houses.html |
Well there's more than two Grammars in Slough I'm sure and St Bernards being a Catholic School (which two of ours attended) would obviously have a wider catchment area as it's intended to be for Catholics rather than just Sloughites. Anyhow I'm not really getting the point as you could move to Slough and get in if you wanted your child to go there. Property prices wouldn't affect your right to apply anyway.
Better schools will always cause local property price pressure. It's a fact of life. The answer is to minimise these effects by making more schools attractive to parents. [Post edited 9 Sep 2016 13:14]
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| Grammar Schools on 13:44 - Sep 9 with 2434 views | CamberleyR |
| Grammar Schools on 11:09 - Sep 9 by londonscottish |
I went to a decent primary and an average comp in Scotland and did OK in the end. I did waste the whole of the first year at secondary school waiting for the kids from the less-good primaries to catch up but from 2nd year on we were streamed and the more motivated kids thrived.
My boy in now in a London comp and is doing OK but the lack of streaming mystifies me. He's just gone into his second year there and is stuck with 7 or 8 kids who quite frankly don't give a fc*k and p*ss about for a solid 10 minutes of each of the lessons whenever they can.
I hope it all works out but the jury's out for now.
Having said that madly-academic schooling is also not the be all and end all either. Holland Park seems to have turned into an exam machine and a mate of mine has just pulled his kids out as they were narrowly missing the grade and were having their confidence well and truly ground out of them.
My solution? IMHO there's nothing wrong with state schools for keeping kids grounded and rounded but let's get the streaming back to reflect the different aspirations, abilities and attitude of the various kids.
Best of both worlds? |
"let's get the streaming back to reflect the different aspirations, abilities and attitude of the various kids"
Absolutely agree LS. The comp I went to in the late 70s had previously been a grammar school and turned comp about 4-5 years before I went there. There was still a lot of the ethos of the old grammar when I went there with the headmaster wearing a gown all the time (he scared the shit out of you) and the deputy heads doing the same at assemblies etc. The school uniform had remained the same as the grammar days too.
They also retained the streaming system so that like you from the second year onwards the brighter kids learned together without disruption and could flourish. If you weren't pulling your weight in a subject, the next term you would be demoted a set. This happened to me once and I know I worked doubly hard that next term to get back to the top set. I don't see anything wrong with this at all and this way of working should have been retained by the Comprehensive system. [Post edited 9 Sep 2016 13:45]
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| Grammar Schools on 14:36 - Sep 9 with 2369 views | A40Bosh |
| Grammar Schools on 13:06 - Sep 9 by ElHoop |
Well there's more than two Grammars in Slough I'm sure and St Bernards being a Catholic School (which two of ours attended) would obviously have a wider catchment area as it's intended to be for Catholics rather than just Sloughites. Anyhow I'm not really getting the point as you could move to Slough and get in if you wanted your child to go there. Property prices wouldn't affect your right to apply anyway.
Better schools will always cause local property price pressure. It's a fact of life. The answer is to minimise these effects by making more schools attractive to parents. [Post edited 9 Sep 2016 13:14]
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Better schools will always cause local property price pressure. It's a fact of life. The answer is to minimise these effects by making more schools attractive to parents.
Exactly mate - and that is my point - and as Grammar schools are generally considered the "better schools" then if you increase the number of new Grammar schools allowed to open or convert from secondary modern/comprehensive then you are faced with more areas being the new sought after areas around the location of the Grammar school and pushing up house prices and that again only helps the richer in society. The link I shared was purely to highlight that the first property I searched for a 3 bed semi in Slough area mentioned the proximity to a local grammar and it was £700K.
My whole argument on this subject echoes your last point in that the Government should be making more schools attractive to parents and improving education standards in all schools for the benefit of all pupils. However the problem is that the current Government in talking about reintroducing Grammar schools are not trying to solve the problems in secondary education, they are merely trying to mask it by allowing the aspiring classes to spend more of their hard earned on private tutoring for their kids from age 8-18 on the understanding that by getting in to a Grammar school they are going to a better school to get a better education when it is only actually better because they are supplementing the lack of natural ability or the sometimes average teaching with private tuition. This will just push down state comprehensives even further in the rankings as they lose more and more able and aspiring kids to the Grammars | |
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| Grammar Schools on 14:54 - Sep 9 with 2337 views | THEBUSH |
I failed my 11+ and ended up at Christopher Wren School for Building and Art.
So I suppose my future was set and did end up as a Carpenter and Joiner.
I was at Wrens in the middle 60´s so a long time ago and I found it a decent school.
If I´d gone to Eaton I for sure wouldn´t have been a C&J, so what I´m saying is, a lot depends on your Birthright.
In an ideal world we´d all have a similar eduction, but the rich and powerful wouldn´t
allow that . [Post edited 9 Sep 2016 14:55]
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| Grammar Schools on 15:16 - Sep 9 with 2305 views | ElHoop |
| Grammar Schools on 14:36 - Sep 9 by A40Bosh |
Better schools will always cause local property price pressure. It's a fact of life. The answer is to minimise these effects by making more schools attractive to parents.
Exactly mate - and that is my point - and as Grammar schools are generally considered the "better schools" then if you increase the number of new Grammar schools allowed to open or convert from secondary modern/comprehensive then you are faced with more areas being the new sought after areas around the location of the Grammar school and pushing up house prices and that again only helps the richer in society. The link I shared was purely to highlight that the first property I searched for a 3 bed semi in Slough area mentioned the proximity to a local grammar and it was £700K.
My whole argument on this subject echoes your last point in that the Government should be making more schools attractive to parents and improving education standards in all schools for the benefit of all pupils. However the problem is that the current Government in talking about reintroducing Grammar schools are not trying to solve the problems in secondary education, they are merely trying to mask it by allowing the aspiring classes to spend more of their hard earned on private tutoring for their kids from age 8-18 on the understanding that by getting in to a Grammar school they are going to a better school to get a better education when it is only actually better because they are supplementing the lack of natural ability or the sometimes average teaching with private tuition. This will just push down state comprehensives even further in the rankings as they lose more and more able and aspiring kids to the Grammars |
'My whole argument on this subject echoes your last point in that the Government should be making more schools attractive to parents and improving education standards in all schools for the benefit of all pupils.'
I don't disagree with any of that, well I'm agreeing with myself i guess haha, but seriously I don't disagree with much of what you say, but on property prices you are getting a bit muddled as presumably every home would be in a catchment area for a grammar school if they were actually reintroduced across the country, so you wouldn't have to move. I guess as a parent you do the best for your own kids but as a country we should be doing the best for all of them. It's not necessary for those objectives to be much separated if at all, but in the absence of a working system, we each do what we can if we are that way motivated. Schools should be making up for less motivated parents but as you can see from some of the postings here, they are in fact demotivating well brought up kids in too many instances, so it's working the other way at the moment.
I agree that May's answer isn't ideal and more than likely it won't get through Parliament, but it'll solidify her support and she'll probably also whack Corbyn with it on the grounds that he seemed to give up one of his wives because she wanted to send their kid to a selective school, so it's an easy score all round from a political perspective, even if she can't get it through. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 15:17 - Sep 9 with 2304 views | wood_hoop |
One of those subjects I feel that could reach 50 pages and we would still be debating.
A few things that stand out head and shoulders for me is the attitude of parents and teachers more than anything, those fortunate to have the funds will as a rule pay for 'little jonny & jemima' to try and attain the best education possible, those less fortunate are starting three steps back from when their kids reach school age.
Went through the comprehensive system myself in the late 60's/70's and got buggar all from it, circumstances at the time went against me and through sheer hard work and no doubt a bit of luck ended up as the head of a department, so probably would be classed as 'a proffesional' by those who like to pidgeon hole anyone who has to work in a salaried position.
So come very very ordinary background and no history of attaining high educational standards anywhere in the family. The one thing when I started my family I was going to try to do was help my kids reach the highest point they could in their education , whether that was acedemicaly or with a 'trade'.
My daughter & son both went to local comp school ,all I can say is that the teachers were no doubt trying their best but were no inspiration at all as far as I was concerned, my daughter was set on being a clothes designer from early teens, done some research and found that the London School Of Fashion was in the 'Oxbridge' list of the fashion world, teachers tried to dissuade her strongly of setting her sights so high and aim for Uni/Colleges of a much lesser reputation.
Reached close to GCSE exams and looked like she was going to struggle to hit the C grade in maths she required to apply for a LCF place, so hand dipped into my pocket and a couple of hours per week private maths tutoring in the evenings for around 3 months did the trick and she got a B , much to the bewilderment of her maths tutor, did not have the heart to tell him we rated his tution skills as highly as Harry Rednapps coaching skills and a private tutor was really the one that should be getting the credit, also helped my son greatly with just ten minutes or so aded on each hour and he also went to onto uni gaining a First
She did go on to getting in LCF after her A levels gained a 2:1 degree, has since gone on to also get her Masters Degree at LCF and after a few years working for different firms was head hunted by a major fashion business and now doing what could be considered as reaching one of the goals of when she was setting off as a teen.
My son just finishing Masters Degree in some 'bean counting' thingy and seems is quite acedemic, my dismay at him watching the 'Bloomberg Channel' instead of 'Babestation' as a teen seems to have had a more educational value than I had imagined.
Sorry for such a long winded post but to get to point, certainly does give an advantage to send kids to higher graded education, whether fee paying or back door of 'Grammer' where we know those of a more priveleged background will be the main benificaries, but don't dismay if your kids do fail the 11 plus, put your hands in your pocket, forgo those Saturday nights out for a while, put the beer money in your kids education, a few private lessons at the right time in subjects which can help in their chosen career path is to me worth the investment.
All this mumbo jumbo from what ever party politician, does nothing but cloud reality, parents are the driving force behind the kids, money will always be the 'beast' until education right across the board is akin to Eton & Harrow there will never be an even playing field. |  | | |
| Grammar Schools on 15:18 - Sep 9 with 2300 views | hopphoops |
| Grammar Schools on 14:54 - Sep 9 by THEBUSH |
I failed my 11+ and ended up at Christopher Wren School for Building and Art.
So I suppose my future was set and did end up as a Carpenter and Joiner.
I was at Wrens in the middle 60´s so a long time ago and I found it a decent school.
If I´d gone to Eaton I for sure wouldn´t have been a C&J, so what I´m saying is, a lot depends on your Birthright.
In an ideal world we´d all have a similar eduction, but the rich and powerful wouldn´t
allow that . [Post edited 9 Sep 2016 14:55]
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I'd rather be a carpenter than an investment banker (i'm not one of those btw...) A more level school system might mean more respect for different jobs and more people doing what they're good at. | |
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| Grammar Schools on 15:21 - Sep 9 with 2299 views | Northernr |
Must say I'm enjoying the thread, even though there will be no agreement or conclusion to it. Well done everybody! |  | | |
| Grammar Schools on 15:27 - Sep 9 with 2287 views | californiahoop |
| Grammar Schools on 15:21 - Sep 9 by Northernr |
Must say I'm enjoying the thread, even though there will be no agreement or conclusion to it. Well done everybody! |
Yes, I like this board.
I have no problem with grammar schools, the majority of the population will go to public schools, I don't expect them to churn out rocket scientist but just guys who can at least tie there own shoe laces. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 15:29 - Sep 9 with 2281 views | Northernr |
| Grammar Schools on 15:18 - Sep 9 by hopphoops |
I'd rather be a carpenter than an investment banker (i'm not one of those btw...) A more level school system might mean more respect for different jobs and more people doing what they're good at. |
This is (another) of my annoyances with the system.
There were kids at my sixth form who shouldn't have been there, and there were kids who were subsequently packed off to do nothing degrees at nothing universities, because it reflects well on the school's figures and league tables if all the students go to sixth form (whether it's suited to them or not) and well on the college if they all go to university, even if it's to study the life and times of Graeme Souness at the University of Dunstable.
There was never any suggestion, encouragement, opportunity or training offered to be a leccy, or a gas engineer, or a plumber, or a carpenter or anything like that, even though that was a much better option for loads of kids. Scraping together 5 A-Cs and a place on an irrelevant course at a poor university looks better on the league tables than qualifying in a trade where you could run your own business, earn great money, and provide a service the country actually needs!
We're too busy saying "oh everybody has to be absolutely equal" "everybody should have the opportunity to go to university" and too scared to say, "well actually that kid clearly would be suited to university so let's get her to a good one on a good course, whereas that kid would be much better suited to an apprenticeship or learning a trade so let's tailor his situation accordingly."
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| Grammar Schools on 15:47 - Sep 9 with 2242 views | LadbrokeR |
| Grammar Schools on 15:29 - Sep 9 by Northernr |
This is (another) of my annoyances with the system.
There were kids at my sixth form who shouldn't have been there, and there were kids who were subsequently packed off to do nothing degrees at nothing universities, because it reflects well on the school's figures and league tables if all the students go to sixth form (whether it's suited to them or not) and well on the college if they all go to university, even if it's to study the life and times of Graeme Souness at the University of Dunstable.
There was never any suggestion, encouragement, opportunity or training offered to be a leccy, or a gas engineer, or a plumber, or a carpenter or anything like that, even though that was a much better option for loads of kids. Scraping together 5 A-Cs and a place on an irrelevant course at a poor university looks better on the league tables than qualifying in a trade where you could run your own business, earn great money, and provide a service the country actually needs!
We're too busy saying "oh everybody has to be absolutely equal" "everybody should have the opportunity to go to university" and too scared to say, "well actually that kid clearly would be suited to university so let's get her to a good one on a good course, whereas that kid would be much better suited to an apprenticeship or learning a trade so let's tailor his situation accordingly."
This post has been edited by an administrator |
I am not sure that people are saying that everybody should be equal it's more a case of people should be given a fairer chance. Having read your posts i would agree as i have seen people that quite frankly are completely disengaged and dont want to learn and want to sabotage things for others. I also think that you're right that ecomonic responsiveness dictates the role of the education system as not everyone can be a neuro surgeon because society needs factory fodder. But why should it be decided by birth. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 16:00 - Sep 9 with 2221 views | Antti_Heinola |
No, I said I liked being at the Grammar I went to was better than the comp I went to. That's not to say Grammars are better than Comps. Just that that Grammar was better than that comp.
Why not a 'Grammar' for the least successful pupils? Give them the best teachers, the best equipment etc? Wouldn't that be more equal?
The whole point of education is that it's elitist? Strange viewpoint. The whole point? | |
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| Grammar Schools on 16:01 - Sep 9 with 2649 views | dannyblue |
I’m still on the fence about grammar schools.
It certainly seems insane to determine a child’s entire educational future based on an exam when they’re 11 and I’m wary of any ghettoisation or labelling.
But there also seems to be a lot of value in specialised approaches to education depending on a child’s particular needs, aspirations and likely outcomes. Some need structure. Some need play. Some should aim for university, others to learn a trade.
Ultimately, whether that specialisation is delivered in different institutions, or different streams within the same institution, I think matters less than the specialisation itself. And, of course, the chance to move between tracks as requirements change. |  | | |
| Grammar Schools on 16:09 - Sep 9 with 2631 views | Gaztastic |
| Grammar Schools on 15:29 - Sep 9 by Northernr |
This is (another) of my annoyances with the system.
There were kids at my sixth form who shouldn't have been there, and there were kids who were subsequently packed off to do nothing degrees at nothing universities, because it reflects well on the school's figures and league tables if all the students go to sixth form (whether it's suited to them or not) and well on the college if they all go to university, even if it's to study the life and times of Graeme Souness at the University of Dunstable.
There was never any suggestion, encouragement, opportunity or training offered to be a leccy, or a gas engineer, or a plumber, or a carpenter or anything like that, even though that was a much better option for loads of kids. Scraping together 5 A-Cs and a place on an irrelevant course at a poor university looks better on the league tables than qualifying in a trade where you could run your own business, earn great money, and provide a service the country actually needs!
We're too busy saying "oh everybody has to be absolutely equal" "everybody should have the opportunity to go to university" and too scared to say, "well actually that kid clearly would be suited to university so let's get her to a good one on a good course, whereas that kid would be much better suited to an apprenticeship or learning a trade so let's tailor his situation accordingly."
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Do you need a hug Clive?? I feel for you and your sh*tty school experience. Fortunately for us you somehow made it out alive and have gifted us the marvelous LFW. p.s "Bravo" on gender choices in your final paragraph egs. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 16:10 - Sep 9 with 2630 views | NW5Hoop |
| Grammar Schools on 08:33 - Sep 9 by Gloucs_R |
Which one? |
Herschel. You? | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 16:16 - Sep 9 with 2619 views | SimonJames |
I don't think it will be many more years before all education is multi-media, delivered by computer, and children can work at their own pace in specific subjects, irrespective of their age.
In that scenario I think school teachers will mainly be there to focus on developing children's social skills and giving clarification on what's been taught via the computers.
And institutions like grammar schools will be far less relevant. |  |
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| Grammar Schools on 16:18 - Sep 9 with 2633 views | Brightonhoop |
| Grammar Schools on 11:25 - Sep 9 by Konk |
We had kids who were always planning to go and work with their Dads in either the Trades or local factories, and they spent most lessons being as disruptive as possible, which made life Hell for the poor teachers and meant that you couldn't learn, even if you wanted to. I think everyone would have been happier if from say 14 onwards, they'd been doing something along the lines of building college/mechanics rather than throwing chairs at Mr Adams in History or throwing Mark Little's pencil case contents, blazer and shoes out of the window every single lesson. I'd keep Maths and English up all the way through. |
Mine had a builders unit attatched precisely for that reason. Most of them have gone on to make earnings to make a merchant banker weep. It was a Secondary Modern all boys set up in West London that laughed it's ar$e off at being made up to a Comprehensive in west London.
The Headmaster was a Welshman who had packed the staff room with welshman who had had a choice of the mines or teaching via university. They got the message across, do well, at least try. And you didn't fck with them. There was a common answer to 'Why, Sir?' which was 'Becuase if you don't I'll kick the $h1t out of you boyo.' Generally got the job done and have very fond memories of the place, for all its violence. The fear of violent discipline helped alot with over 1000 teenage boys running rampage 5 days a week. [Post edited 9 Sep 2016 16:19]
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| Grammar Schools on 16:24 - Sep 9 with 2627 views | wortonranger |
| Grammar Schools on 00:16 - Sep 9 by QPR_Jim |
It's funny because without a vociferous mother I wouldn't have had the chance to sit the 11+ because my teachers at the time thought it would be a waste of time. Anyway my mum talked them around and I was the only boy from my school that passed that year, which I'm not sure my teacher was too happy about.
I definitely benefited from the grammar school education improving year on year in a way that I think was unexpected of me. As I benefited from the system I find it hard to argue against it as I would want others to benefit in the same way although I do see how it can be unfair. |
Without my grammar school education I might not have had the chance to study geography at Oxford around the same time as a certain Mrs May. I had some hope for our future when she got the big job as I hoped she would understand the world in a similar way to me thanks to the tutors we shared. However, oh dear oh dear. Grammar schools are as Tory an idea as you can get. Fundamentally flawed, unfair, cruel, crazy like most of the Recent education policies. When will they, and the many who love the idea ( presumably assuming that they and their progeny will all attend them) realise that they should listen to the vast majority of those who actually know something about kids and education. They are an idea that should be consigned to the history books. They mainly don't work. |  | | |
| Grammar Schools on 16:27 - Sep 9 with 2623 views | Northernr |
| Grammar Schools on 16:09 - Sep 9 by Gaztastic |
Do you need a hug Clive?? I feel for you and your sh*tty school experience. Fortunately for us you somehow made it out alive and have gifted us the marvelous LFW. p.s "Bravo" on gender choices in your final paragraph egs. |
It was honestly the worst five or six years of my life. It's 16 years ago now but if it ever comes up in conversation or whatever in front of my mum she still cries now because she's never forgiven herself for the decisions she made about where I should go and the effect it had on me. | | | |
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