| Quick look at the financial statements 13:32 - Dec 28 with 22175 views | Nigeriamark |
As I mentioned in another post I have put together some of the data from the financial statements in a table & will give a simple/factual statement as to what they dhow. Clearly what we can do in the future is still a better of opinion but at least this gives a view on what the state of finances are as of end of May 2018. Unfortunately this is the first year where very detailed information is given, but I have looked at the balance sheet for the last 10 years which gives some insights.
I have attempted to explain how to look at these from the point of view of someone who may not be familiar with these documents so sorry if some of the explanations seem obvious
Table 1 - 2017 & 18 full financials
To May 18 To May 17
Gross Rev 5,412,000 6,000,000
Cost of sales -3,830,000 -3,161,000
Admin costs -1,943,000 -1,563,000
Distribution costs -31,000 0
Other income/loss 108,000 133,000
Intrest payable/received -23,000 -45,000
Total Profit/Loss -307,000 1,364,000
Exceptional income 1,429,000 -2,330,000
P/L on normal business -1,736,000 -966,000
Net assets 2,571,000 2,878,000
Table 2 - Exceptional items
2018 2017
Transfer fees 711,000 2,166,000
TV Money 455,000 17,000
Prize money 263,000 147,000
Total. 1, 429,000. 2,330,000
Table 3 - Increase in asset value last 10 years
GBP Assets
to May 18 -307,000 2,571,000
To May 17 1,356,000 2,878,000
to May 16 -419,000 1,522,000
to May 15 1,426,000 1,941,000
to May 14 -65,000 515,000
to May 13 -372,000 580,000
to May 12 353,000 952,000
to May 11 480,000 599,000
to May 10 143,000 119,000
To May 09 -24,000
I have split the next section into 3, How to read financials ( very basic) followed by what I think the Rochdale financials are saying ( mainly factual + some reasonable "guestimates", and finally a brief summary
READING FINANCIALS
Although gross revenue is important, it is not relevant until you take away what you have spent. This gives us the net revenue, which is also called profit or loss. This is the money that if you run at a profit you can put into your bank and if you run at a loss you need to take out of your bank. Many companies will look at this from 2 perspectives:-
1. How the " normal" operation is running - This looks only at income and expenditure that is predictable and occurs every year. This would include gate money, sponsorships, EFL money etc as incomes and Salaries, maintenance etc. This profit loss on normal business is an indication of the general health of the business and if positive means that you are not requiring something that cannot be guaranteed to happen to balance the books
2. Total operation - This is as above but then adds in items that are not guaranteed to happen. For income this could be Transfer fees and sell ons received, Money from drawing a big club in a cup etc. For expenditure this could be a fee paid for a player. If positive and you are running a positive normal operation this would be considered " cream on top" and could be used to fund something not initially planned. If normal business is negative then you would need to use this additional income to cover the loss
Unfortunately we only have exceptional item breakdown for 2018 & 2017 so hard to judge trends
3. Table 3 - Increase/decrease in assets
Although we do not have full financials, we have the asset value over 10 years. In 2009 the club had a negative value but over the last 10 years we have recorded a total of approx 2.6m profit so we stand as of May 2018 with assets of 2.571m. Although this is an average of 260,000 a year, it is not a smooth increase but swings dramatically between + 1.4m and - 400,000. We can estimate below the reason for this
WHAT DO THE FINANCIALS SEEM TO BE SAYING
1. Normal Business. The club has lost about 2.7m over 2017 & 2018 or approx 110,000 per month. Revenue from gates actually increased slightly, but Salaries jumped significantly as did Admin cost. It would seem that as a result of a large transfer/sell in 2017, the club then pushed out the boat on players or other staff
Based on the fact that we have never had massive increases in staff, income, crowds etc I would estimate that we have probably incurred losses on normal business in most if not all of the last 10 years
2. Total Business. After over 110 years of business, we find ourselves with assets of approx 2.6m a figure also earned over the last 10 years. The fact that year end 2015 and 2017 account for more than this amount and the fact that we have full details of 2017 show that the biggest individual factor in getting to where we are is not the way the club runs it's normal business, but its dependence on exceptional items. This is not regular though and it is primarily through these 2 exceptional years ( not sure which transfers or sell ons would be hear). Prize money and TV money is also contributing, but it is the transfers that have got us to where we are. We have still lost money in 4 of the last 9 years even with all the windfalls
3. Assets. These would confirm my above points. Most of the normal business is under our control and the nature of the market we compete in suggest that although I don't have the detail, it is likely to have followed a similar loss making pattern. I would guess that in league 2 the gross revenue and costs were lower but we also did not achieve the same level of income from TV money, transfers etc. As a result we would have been running losses but not 110,000 per month
SUMMARY
1. Rochdale is a loss making club based on normal business and I would estimate probably always have been. In an effort to stay in league 1 we have "pushed out the boat" since the league 2 days, but increases in revenue from ticket sales will probably not have got anywhere near covering this. Sponsorships increased in 2018 but with lack of detailed data before 2017 it is hard to see if this is a trend
2. Unlike earlier years we have been relatively successful in the selling market, but not every year. As a result we have turned normal losses into a profit and our assets have risen. If we are to maintain the squad, level of spending we incur in league 1 we are going to have to "guarantee" a supply of players that we can sell on at a profit ( + try to win cup ties for prize money and a possibility of money spinning ties)
Over the last 5 years we seem to have a set of financials that a lot of EFL clubs would love, but it is dependent on continuing with our "selling club" model. It is not a lack of ambition but a financial imperative, much that it pisses of many fans.
My final comments would be based on "appetite for risk". You can take my data and moving forward justify any course of action based on your personal appetite for risk. For example:-
1. We could buy players in January or hand money back to fans with lower cup tie tickets and justify this by saying we believe we will continue to be successful in identifying and selling on talent
2. We could manage with what we have ( or free transfers) and maximise ticket prizes with the justification that transfers could dry up and we need to take a less risky policy in terms of what we spend.
That is why for example no-one is actually wrong if they say the Newcastle tickets should be 22 or 27 GBP. It depends on what you believe in terms of where we are now, what the future holds ( which no-one knows), and what your personal risk profile is
Clearly like everyone else I have a view of what we should do going forward, but in the interest of trying to make this factual view of the numbers I won't be the first to comment
This email is long enough but happy to answer any questions. For some of the more detailed numbers (. salaries etc 2017 & 18) , I have added a link at the bottom
1 question I would like to know is what "Admin" includes as it is a large amount & has increased. If I have this info I could probably do a better analysis but at this stage I have assumed it is part of normal business
https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/wfryK
[Post edited 28 Dec 2019 13:35]
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 20:21 - Dec 28 with 2295 views | judd |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 20:07 - Dec 28 by RAFCBLUE |
https://www.footy.com/footballers-vs-the-fans/#efl-league-one
This is the data for average wage paid per week for the season ended May 2018 by club.
We do have a competitive budget - certainly not bottom 4 for League 1.
Our problem will be how that budget is being concentrated - I’d imagine Henderson, Done, Wilbraham and Andrew are on well above that average; our kids being on well below it.
A better question is what the investment is being sought for. We own our ground now, so it can’t be for that. [Post edited 28 Dec 2019 20:09]
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We average more than Doncaster is a real surprise. |  |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 20:27 - Dec 28 with 2280 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 20:17 - Dec 28 by Cleedale |
Very interesting link that RAFC. But how do they get that sort of information from the clubs or is it leaked; always thought it was under wraps?
Your final para is the sort of thing that needs raising at the FF; again and again... |
From accounts; probably dividing the known number of players to the amounts disclosed as paid to players.
It looks a reasonable approximation of how we understand the wage structure in League 1. |  |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 20:30 - Dec 28 with 2271 views | judd |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 20:27 - Dec 28 by RAFCBLUE |
From accounts; probably dividing the known number of players to the amounts disclosed as paid to players.
It looks a reasonable approximation of how we understand the wage structure in League 1. |
Bury average £1900. I think there's a nought missing. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 20:31 - Dec 28 with 2268 views | Cleedale |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 20:03 - Dec 28 by James1980 |
What would an investor expect by way of return? A dividend a stand named after them or their name on the deeds to the ground?
Maybe someone with enough funds to allow us to keep our best players would be good. However one of the reasons players sign for us is we don't hold them back if they have an opportunity to progress. |
I thought you might be able to have a word with your bosses and get them to sponsor free rail travel for the team (only to and from games like).
On a more serious note, the Scottish Euromillions winner from about 8/9 years ago has sadly passed away. OK, sounds like he'd been through a divorce but makes you wonder how much had been invested in Partick Thistle FC...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50930002 |  | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 20:37 - Dec 28 with 2247 views | fitzochris |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 20:31 - Dec 28 by Cleedale |
I thought you might be able to have a word with your bosses and get them to sponsor free rail travel for the team (only to and from games like).
On a more serious note, the Scottish Euromillions winner from about 8/9 years ago has sadly passed away. OK, sounds like he'd been through a divorce but makes you wonder how much had been invested in Partick Thistle FC...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50930002 |
A lot.
He also gave the SNP a barrow load of cash, too. |  |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 20:38 - Dec 28 with 2244 views | fitzochris |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 17:13 - Dec 28 by Dorislove |
Dawson was sold on 1 july 2019 ,he wont be on the 2019 accounts never mind the 2018 accounts.
WBA to Watford im on about.975,000 [Post edited 28 Dec 2019 17:14]
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Precisely. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 20:40 - Dec 28 with 2244 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 20:13 - Dec 28 by judd |
One thing is for sure - you simply have to admire and be grateful for those prepared to put themselves up for a directorship at Dale, especially those who work unpaid.
That they continue to deliver professional football at this level to an undeserving town is more than just commendable.
With regards "seeking investment" - I guess there are options such as transfer fee cut, TV fees cut, cup prize money cut as a means of paying back capital investments. I expect that it will take investors with a similar mindset to fans - don't expect much in return but don't push me too far else I'm off. |
Can't disagree Judd but would add that those in charge at any point in history are merely custodians of the asset and have two responsibilities:
1) Preservation of that core asset and it's place in the town
2) Improvement of the vehicle in the operating environment to build a buffer for the achievement of objective 1.
Re the point on return on investment, let's say I'd be prepared to put in £2m now, secured on the ground, in return for just 10% of the profit on transfers for the next 10 seasons. My core objective as an investor then becomes selling the best players for as much as possible in whatever league we play.
In percentage terms my return would be a fraction percentage of that I would get investing £2m over 10 years in comparable assets returning a regular return.
At that point it's not an investment choice.
In a club that wants to have a shareholding board Id need to offer £300k to get enough shares to have a meaningful say, plus wanting the headache of running a professional football club. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 20:54 - Dec 28 with 2207 views | James1980 |
Perhaps if Comrade Corbyn had been elected. Maybe we could have changed the name to Dynamo Dale, free travel for fans and players to all matches.
On the subject of free travel as mentioned before Brighton offers free travel to games within about a 20 mile radius not sure such a scheme would be worth it at Rochdale though as in cost vs fans through the turnstiles | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:01 - Dec 28 with 2189 views | 49thseason |
It has always seemed to me that much of what the club does to sell itself is a complete waste of time and money. For example, the roadside adverts for season tickets ... what was the cost? Were the results of that expenditure measurable?
Car Boot sale at Christmas? How much did it actually raise? These sort of endeavours smack of being seen to be doing something rather than meaningful initiatives which are capable of raising say an extra £100k like setting out to sell another 500 season tickets. So here are a few ideas
1. Give every season ticket holder 5 vouchers worth £20 each for each extra season ticket they sell to someone they know who does not currently have one, and give the new season ticket holder a £20 reduction when they buy one using the voucher.
2. Sell 200 "corporate" season tickets to local businesses ( and I now include Bury as local) for £500 each on the basis that they can be used as employee incentives . These tickets will be "admit 2 people" so that the person being incentivised can take a mate or even his or her spouse!
3. Develop a new " win a car" raffle for a cheap but new car like a Dacia ( about £7k)
Sell tickets at via the gold bond agents at say £3 each and draw when 10,000 have been sold .. rinse and repeat 4 times a year. Local dealers might be interested in giving hefty discounts to have their cars included.
4. Make the Ratcliffe an attractive venue for 365 days of the year and additional £300 a day profit would bring in an extra £100k a year.
5. Rather than shutting the Sandy Lane end for tinpot trophy games, we should give away 1000 "dad and lad" invitations to schools for £2 or £3 each and use the Sandy lane end as a gateway to turn occasional visitors into more regular attendees. On their way out we should .then give them a hefty discount for the next home game and if they come to that a smaller discount for the following game , establishing the habit.
Some of these might turn out to be unworkable for very good reasons but if a couple worked well they beat the bejabers out of car boot sales and add sustainable annual income which is what we are desperate for.
What else has anyone got as a suggestion? It would seem this is becoming the time to get inventive. |  | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:08 - Dec 28 with 2171 views | fitzochris |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:01 - Dec 28 by 49thseason |
It has always seemed to me that much of what the club does to sell itself is a complete waste of time and money. For example, the roadside adverts for season tickets ... what was the cost? Were the results of that expenditure measurable?
Car Boot sale at Christmas? How much did it actually raise? These sort of endeavours smack of being seen to be doing something rather than meaningful initiatives which are capable of raising say an extra £100k like setting out to sell another 500 season tickets. So here are a few ideas
1. Give every season ticket holder 5 vouchers worth £20 each for each extra season ticket they sell to someone they know who does not currently have one, and give the new season ticket holder a £20 reduction when they buy one using the voucher.
2. Sell 200 "corporate" season tickets to local businesses ( and I now include Bury as local) for £500 each on the basis that they can be used as employee incentives . These tickets will be "admit 2 people" so that the person being incentivised can take a mate or even his or her spouse!
3. Develop a new " win a car" raffle for a cheap but new car like a Dacia ( about £7k)
Sell tickets at via the gold bond agents at say £3 each and draw when 10,000 have been sold .. rinse and repeat 4 times a year. Local dealers might be interested in giving hefty discounts to have their cars included.
4. Make the Ratcliffe an attractive venue for 365 days of the year and additional £300 a day profit would bring in an extra £100k a year.
5. Rather than shutting the Sandy Lane end for tinpot trophy games, we should give away 1000 "dad and lad" invitations to schools for £2 or £3 each and use the Sandy lane end as a gateway to turn occasional visitors into more regular attendees. On their way out we should .then give them a hefty discount for the next home game and if they come to that a smaller discount for the following game , establishing the habit.
Some of these might turn out to be unworkable for very good reasons but if a couple worked well they beat the bejabers out of car boot sales and add sustainable annual income which is what we are desperate for.
What else has anyone got as a suggestion? It would seem this is becoming the time to get inventive. |
While the advert for season tickets resembled a Greater Manchester Police campaign, the idea of advertising in public places in itself is a good one. How else can the club make non die hards aware? They may well not be following the club on social media. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:14 - Dec 28 with 2152 views | jonahwhereru |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 20:07 - Dec 28 by RAFCBLUE |
https://www.footy.com/footballers-vs-the-fans/#efl-league-one
This is the data for average wage paid per week for the season ended May 2018 by club.
We do have a competitive budget - certainly not bottom 4 for League 1.
Our problem will be how that budget is being concentrated - I’d imagine Henderson, Done, Wilbraham and Andrew are on well above that average; our kids being on well below it.
A better question is what the investment is being sought for. We own our ground now, so it can’t be for that. [Post edited 28 Dec 2019 20:09]
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Interesting table this. If we did get relegated reducing the wage bill would be the imperative. It is also a great illustration of why the football in L2 is so much poorer than L1. No wonder it took time for Scunthorpe to adjust to the drop.
I find it extremely had to believe the average wage for residents of the Isle of Dogs - Millwall- (accepting that will include some Docklands redevelopment) has an higher average income than Kingston. Think they must be use Merton instead for the Wimbledon average wage. | | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:20 - Dec 28 with 2139 views | Dorislove |
Average 82k for each player in our squad ,never in a million years .£1586 a week |  | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:20 - Dec 28 with 2137 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:08 - Dec 28 by fitzochris |
While the advert for season tickets resembled a Greater Manchester Police campaign, the idea of advertising in public places in itself is a good one. How else can the club make non die hards aware? They may well not be following the club on social media. |
Perhaps simply put on a product seen as good value for the leisure £ in the local area?
Funny how we attracted many non-die hards for many years over the last 30 years when in good runs of form and at the right end of a league table, when no billboard advertising was present.
Retention of those floating fans for the Spurs, Man United or Newcastle cup game via a cheaper entry voucher for another home game would have been cheaper and more impactful than a billboard. Nothing done by the club for Spurs or Man United; we will see if the penny drops for Newcastle at home.
The economics of where those billboards are situated mean most seeing them don’t actually have a level of disposable income to give us a try even if they held the desire to want to. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:23 - Dec 28 with 2125 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:20 - Dec 28 by Dorislove |
Average 82k for each player in our squad ,never in a million years .£1586 a week |
Assume that includes employers national insurance so £82k is a £72k salary - £1,400 a week.
Hendo is on £120k easy. Done, Andrew and others are on more that £1,400 a week in League 1. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:28 - Dec 28 with 2111 views | Dorislove |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:23 - Dec 28 by RAFCBLUE |
Assume that includes employers national insurance so £82k is a £72k salary - £1,400 a week.
Hendo is on £120k easy. Done, Andrew and others are on more that £1,400 a week in League 1. |
Average weekly pay it says ,nothing to do with 13% employers NI contributions,that is a company problem not an employee one.If that is the case football is up the creek . | | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:30 - Dec 28 with 2108 views | judd |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:28 - Dec 28 by Dorislove |
Average weekly pay it says ,nothing to do with 13% employers NI contributions,that is a company problem not an employee one.If that is the case football is up the creek . |
If the source is as declared in accounts then it will surely lump all player payroll costs together, including bonuses, healthcare, pension contributions , vehicle etc. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:36 - Dec 28 with 2092 views | Dorislove |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:30 - Dec 28 by judd |
If the source is as declared in accounts then it will surely lump all player payroll costs together, including bonuses, healthcare, pension contributions , vehicle etc. |
okay so it is what it is ,24 man squad @82k just under 2m,where is the othe 4m going since we have a turnover of around 6m.Im being a little over critical but seems alot going on in the background. [Post edited 28 Dec 2019 21:38]
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:37 - Dec 28 with 2086 views | foreverhopefulDale |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 20:18 - Dec 28 by judd |
It will be the need for cash flow. |
Going off the op, don’t we need money for cash flow every season, without extras coming in. So in many ways, unless someone is going to guarantee to cover the every season deficit, it’s almost a waste of time, because any short term investment would be just that, short term |  |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:46 - Dec 28 with 2055 views | judd |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:37 - Dec 28 by foreverhopefulDale |
Going off the op, don’t we need money for cash flow every season, without extras coming in. So in many ways, unless someone is going to guarantee to cover the every season deficit, it’s almost a waste of time, because any short term investment would be just that, short term |
In my opinion if it was short term then a bank loan would be better.
I guess any investment would be used to fund cash flow from cash reserves or regular cash injection - ring fencing it so the wages and other bills can be met as we always manage to do nowadays.
There is a clearly demonstrable cash grab going on these past couple of seasons and I guess cash is our problem. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:50 - Dec 28 with 2050 views | judd |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:36 - Dec 28 by Dorislove |
okay so it is what it is ,24 man squad @82k just under 2m,where is the othe 4m going since we have a turnover of around 6m.Im being a little over critical but seems alot going on in the background. [Post edited 28 Dec 2019 21:38]
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I'd have to look at the accounts again. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:53 - Dec 28 with 2045 views | fitzochris |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:20 - Dec 28 by RAFCBLUE |
Perhaps simply put on a product seen as good value for the leisure £ in the local area?
Funny how we attracted many non-die hards for many years over the last 30 years when in good runs of form and at the right end of a league table, when no billboard advertising was present.
Retention of those floating fans for the Spurs, Man United or Newcastle cup game via a cheaper entry voucher for another home game would have been cheaper and more impactful than a billboard. Nothing done by the club for Spurs or Man United; we will see if the penny drops for Newcastle at home.
The economics of where those billboards are situated mean most seeing them don’t actually have a level of disposable income to give us a try even if they held the desire to want to. |
Chris Dunphy once told me an anecdote about the response he got around the town after the Fulham game, which equated to people enthusing about our performance in the match. When asked if they would be back, their response was: only if we played another “big team”.
Advertising season tickets makes sense, the methodology could perhaps be questioned, but let’s credit the action where it’s merited. The club could always take a leaf out of Terry Hall’s book and Do Nothing. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:58 - Dec 28 with 2035 views | Cleedale |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:36 - Dec 28 by Dorislove |
okay so it is what it is ,24 man squad @82k just under 2m,where is the othe 4m going since we have a turnover of around 6m.Im being a little over critical but seems alot going on in the background. [Post edited 28 Dec 2019 21:38]
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Maybe have a look at the Admin. costs on Nigeriamark's opening lines. Plenty there going on in the background. And, hasn't there been plenty of talk of the playing budget 'increasing' in 2018/19 and perhaps nearer the £3m mark.
As you probably rightly said earlier, football's in a right mess. | | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:02 - Dec 28 with 2025 views | judd |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:53 - Dec 28 by fitzochris |
Chris Dunphy once told me an anecdote about the response he got around the town after the Fulham game, which equated to people enthusing about our performance in the match. When asked if they would be back, their response was: only if we played another “big team”.
Advertising season tickets makes sense, the methodology could perhaps be questioned, but let’s credit the action where it’s merited. The club could always take a leaf out of Terry Hall’s book and Do Nothing. |
At the risk of appearing critical, we are "selling" season tickets to the wrong people.
The best negotiators in the world are children. Target the local football clubs end of season awards (Springfield Park Juniors hire out the Ratcliffe, Pennine Juniors the cricket, lacrosse & squash club, for example), get head teacher buy in at schools, scouts, cubs, beavers, link with cricket clubs (summer and winter sports), link any sale to a child with an adult purchase. Just thinking along 49thseasons lines. | |
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| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:11 - Dec 28 with 1992 views | 49thseason |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 21:08 - Dec 28 by fitzochris |
While the advert for season tickets resembled a Greater Manchester Police campaign, the idea of advertising in public places in itself is a good one. How else can the club make non die hards aware? They may well not be following the club on social media. |
John Wanamaker famously said "Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half.” Without asking he people who were new to season tickets, no one will ever know. RCD will deliver leaflets door to door for £32.50 + VAT per 1000. At least you can target where the leaflets go, you have no idea who drives past a poster at a bus stop which can cost up to £250 for 2 weeks. Better still is to find a way of putting trial tickets into peoples hands for low prices and get their contact details , build a client database and then mine it. | | | |
| Quick look at the financial statements on 22:25 - Dec 28 with 1954 views | fitzochris |
All good points here. There is much more that can be done, or at least the same done in a more targeted way, but I was just applauding the effort as, in the past, there has been none at all when it has come to marketing the club.
Ideas from supporters should very much be taken on board by the club. | |
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