| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich 13:02 - Feb 14 with 119107 views | loftboy |
Should the worst happen and the Russians invade, I suspect that many rich Russians in the UK will be part of the proposed sanctions, could this affect our foes down the road? |  |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 19:21 - Feb 24 with 3872 views | stevec |
Who’s side are you on?
Oh, that side. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 20:03 - Feb 24 with 3764 views | Boston |
World leaders will be back shaking his hand within twelve months of military cessation. |  |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 20:08 - Feb 24 with 3742 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 19:13 - Feb 24 by kensalriser |
Forgive me if I've misinterpreted your position but it seems to me you're arguing that Putin has legitimate grievances and that somehow his invasion of Ukraine is someone else's fault. He doesn't and it's not. You're also putting forward false equivalence arguments (oh look Ukraine isn't a perfect model of liberal democracy). Putin alone chose to wage war completely unnecessarily since Ukraine poses zero threat to Russia -the actual perceived threat is a functioning ex-USSR democracy on his doorstep that might give his domestic opponents succour. |
Yes, I am arguing that Russia (not Putin) has legitimate grievances, all in existence prior to Putin.
- Intererence in Russian energy markets
- Expansion of NATO
- Military exercises in the Black Sea and Sea of Murmansk.
Before today that was a pretty mainstream position and that of the UN including some NATO members.
That isn’t mutually exclusive with saying Putin should be in The Hague or that Putin is guilty of the second two himself or that he (along with the military wing of the separatist movement) have not directly killed innocent victims.
I am also not commenting on Ukraines degree of democracy in their government, I am commenting on the hypocrisy of labelling Putin a bloodthirsty authoritarian regime as we supply weapons to it, host their oligarchs, and pocket their money. Again, not mutually exclusive with my description of Putin.
Ukraine is not a military threat to Russia, but elements of it are are a threat to non Slavs and dissenting Russians, and we fund and legitimise them.
I can’t express the complexities of 300 years of Ukrainian / Russian relations properly on a commute home in one line, but neither Washington nor Moscow. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 20:15]
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 20:39 - Feb 24 with 3632 views | BostonR |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 20:08 - Feb 24 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Yes, I am arguing that Russia (not Putin) has legitimate grievances, all in existence prior to Putin.
- Intererence in Russian energy markets
- Expansion of NATO
- Military exercises in the Black Sea and Sea of Murmansk.
Before today that was a pretty mainstream position and that of the UN including some NATO members.
That isn’t mutually exclusive with saying Putin should be in The Hague or that Putin is guilty of the second two himself or that he (along with the military wing of the separatist movement) have not directly killed innocent victims.
I am also not commenting on Ukraines degree of democracy in their government, I am commenting on the hypocrisy of labelling Putin a bloodthirsty authoritarian regime as we supply weapons to it, host their oligarchs, and pocket their money. Again, not mutually exclusive with my description of Putin.
Ukraine is not a military threat to Russia, but elements of it are are a threat to non Slavs and dissenting Russians, and we fund and legitimise them.
I can’t express the complexities of 300 years of Ukrainian / Russian relations properly on a commute home in one line, but neither Washington nor Moscow. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 20:15]
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So, you support Putin and his mafia. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 21:00 - Feb 24 with 3569 views | Rangersw12 |
Sad to see people trying to justify Russian aggression on this thread but to be expected 🙄
Apprently a Turkish ship has been hit by a Russian bomb and as a NATO country this could descend very quickly into all out war.
It would be very QPR that we win the play offs seconds before the 4 minute warning goes off [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 22:24]
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 21:01 - Feb 24 with 3567 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 20:39 - Feb 24 by BostonR |
So, you support Putin and his mafia. |
Straight out of the Cathy Newman book of journalism. A pity.
If members of this debate are doing to be labelled as being sympathetic to Putin's mafia as you call them, then would you have a problem with me referring to you as a supporter of Zelensky and his Neo Nazi thugs in the Azov Battalion? I imagine not.
I am yet to see anyone here support the actions of Putin, merely give some context to current events. It's all easily verifiable on the internet. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 21:29 - Feb 24 with 3463 views | gobbles |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 21:00 - Feb 24 by Rangersw12 |
Sad to see people trying to justify Russian aggression on this thread but to be expected 🙄
Apprently a Turkish ship has been hit by a Russian bomb and as a NATO country this could descend very quickly into all out war.
It would be very QPR that we win the play offs seconds before the 4 minute warning goes off [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 22:24]
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Yeah, but what a four minutes! |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 22:15 - Feb 24 with 3369 views | Damo1962 |
Not being flippant about an incredibly serious and concerning situation, but does this mean that everything Chelski have won since the crook turned up...are null and void🤔😎 | | | |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 22:56 - Feb 24 with 3300 views | slmrstid |
The news was a very depressing watch tonight. Just read on the BBC that Ukraine have now barred all men aged 18-60 from leaving the country so they are available to assist in the defence if needed.
Thats a very sobering thought. Can only hope things here never deteriorate to that level.
The only way Putin can/will be stopped is for it to come from his own country. Lots of anti-war protests and arrests in Russia tonight, its clearly not popular over there. Who knows, maybe in time some high ranking Putin-cronies will be able to see sense and put a stop to it. Wishful thinking perhaps... |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 23:07 - Feb 24 with 3266 views | BostonR |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 21:01 - Feb 24 by Orthodox_Hoop |
Straight out of the Cathy Newman book of journalism. A pity.
If members of this debate are doing to be labelled as being sympathetic to Putin's mafia as you call them, then would you have a problem with me referring to you as a supporter of Zelensky and his Neo Nazi thugs in the Azov Battalion? I imagine not.
I am yet to see anyone here support the actions of Putin, merely give some context to current events. It's all easily verifiable on the internet. |
Fact is that tonight over 200 Ukrainian citizens were alive this morning before Putin and his mafia stormed the gates. Now that’s a realistic pity and readily available on the internet. Do you work for RT by any chance? | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 23:55 - Feb 24 with 3202 views | qprd |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 20:08 - Feb 24 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Yes, I am arguing that Russia (not Putin) has legitimate grievances, all in existence prior to Putin.
- Intererence in Russian energy markets
- Expansion of NATO
- Military exercises in the Black Sea and Sea of Murmansk.
Before today that was a pretty mainstream position and that of the UN including some NATO members.
That isn’t mutually exclusive with saying Putin should be in The Hague or that Putin is guilty of the second two himself or that he (along with the military wing of the separatist movement) have not directly killed innocent victims.
I am also not commenting on Ukraines degree of democracy in their government, I am commenting on the hypocrisy of labelling Putin a bloodthirsty authoritarian regime as we supply weapons to it, host their oligarchs, and pocket their money. Again, not mutually exclusive with my description of Putin.
Ukraine is not a military threat to Russia, but elements of it are are a threat to non Slavs and dissenting Russians, and we fund and legitimise them.
I can’t express the complexities of 300 years of Ukrainian / Russian relations properly on a commute home in one line, but neither Washington nor Moscow. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 20:15]
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Imagine living in the west with access to real news sources and being susceptible to putins propaganda | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 00:30 - Feb 25 with 3168 views | kensalriser |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 21:01 - Feb 24 by Orthodox_Hoop |
Straight out of the Cathy Newman book of journalism. A pity.
If members of this debate are doing to be labelled as being sympathetic to Putin's mafia as you call them, then would you have a problem with me referring to you as a supporter of Zelensky and his Neo Nazi thugs in the Azov Battalion? I imagine not.
I am yet to see anyone here support the actions of Putin, merely give some context to current events. It's all easily verifiable on the internet. |
Zelensky is a pretty shrewd operator if he has neo-Nazis on his side, considering his Jewish origins.
And you're putting in quite a lot of effort explaining Putin's side of things for someone who claims he doesn't support his actions. |  |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 00:34 - Feb 25 with 3160 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 23:55 - Feb 24 by qprd |
Imagine living in the west with access to real news sources and being susceptible to putins propaganda |
I only read the Evening Standard, the Independant, and the i Newspaper.
How have I been influenced by Russian propaganda?
This is obviously sarcasm. They are owned by pro Putin oligarchs. [Post edited 25 Feb 2022 0:37]
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 00:35 - Feb 25 with 3154 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 22:56 - Feb 24 by slmrstid |
The news was a very depressing watch tonight. Just read on the BBC that Ukraine have now barred all men aged 18-60 from leaving the country so they are available to assist in the defence if needed.
Thats a very sobering thought. Can only hope things here never deteriorate to that level.
The only way Putin can/will be stopped is for it to come from his own country. Lots of anti-war protests and arrests in Russia tonight, its clearly not popular over there. Who knows, maybe in time some high ranking Putin-cronies will be able to see sense and put a stop to it. Wishful thinking perhaps... |
The correct answer. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 07:30 - Feb 25 with 2920 views | JamesB1979 |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 21:01 - Feb 24 by Orthodox_Hoop |
Straight out of the Cathy Newman book of journalism. A pity.
If members of this debate are doing to be labelled as being sympathetic to Putin's mafia as you call them, then would you have a problem with me referring to you as a supporter of Zelensky and his Neo Nazi thugs in the Azov Battalion? I imagine not.
I am yet to see anyone here support the actions of Putin, merely give some context to current events. It's all easily verifiable on the internet. |
“Context” is just a “I’m much smarter than you” way of saying “justification”. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 07:31 - Feb 25 with 2923 views | distortR |
"I am the people- the mob- the mass.
Do you know that all the great work of the world is done through me?
I am the working man, the inventor, the maker of the world's food and clothes.
I am the audience that witness's history. The Napoleons come from me and the Lincolns. They die. And then I send forth more Napoleons and Lincolns.
I am the seed ground. I am a prairie that will stand for much plowing. Terrible storms pass over me. I forget. The best of me is sucked out and wasted. I forget. Everything but Death comes to me and makes me work and give up what I have. And I forget.
Sometimes I growl, shake myself and spatter a few red drops for history to remember. And then - I forget.
When I, the People, learn to remember, when I, the People use the lessons of yesterday and no longer forget who robbed me last year, who played me for a fool - then there will be no speaker in all the world say the name: "The People", with any flick of a sneer in his voice or any far-off smile of derision.
The mob - the crowd - the mass - will arrive then."
Carl Sandburg.
My heart goes out to the people of Ukraine and the mothers in Russia. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 08:27 - Feb 25 with 2829 views | Metallica_Hoop |
Where are Porta,Tiny,Gregor,Heide and the Old Man when you need them. |  |
| Beer and Beef has made us what we are - The Prince Regent |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 08:41 - Feb 25 with 2784 views | stevec |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 22:56 - Feb 24 by slmrstid |
The news was a very depressing watch tonight. Just read on the BBC that Ukraine have now barred all men aged 18-60 from leaving the country so they are available to assist in the defence if needed.
Thats a very sobering thought. Can only hope things here never deteriorate to that level.
The only way Putin can/will be stopped is for it to come from his own country. Lots of anti-war protests and arrests in Russia tonight, its clearly not popular over there. Who knows, maybe in time some high ranking Putin-cronies will be able to see sense and put a stop to it. Wishful thinking perhaps... |
Unfortunately the subversives in this country will undermine our own efforts way before the Russian people undermine Putins. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 08:52 - Feb 25 with 2744 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 23:07 - Feb 24 by BostonR |
Fact is that tonight over 200 Ukrainian citizens were alive this morning before Putin and his mafia stormed the gates. Now that’s a realistic pity and readily available on the internet. Do you work for RT by any chance? |
That is indeed a pity. As is the loss of over 13,000 so far in this conflict since it began in 2014.
The RT comment is uncalled for and unnecessary. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 08:56 - Feb 25 with 2734 views | Paddyhoops |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 08:41 - Feb 25 by stevec |
Unfortunately the subversives in this country will undermine our own efforts way before the Russian people undermine Putins. |
Every 80 years or so we get some 24 carat ding a ling hell bent on violence and destruction. Step forward, Putin.
Exclude them from all aspects of Sport and life in general . Make them a pariah State.
Sebastian Vettell has said he won't compete in the Russian grand prix in September. A man of principles which is more than you can say for the body that represents his sport.
I have a lot of sympathy for decent Russian people but Thier leader has one goal in my mind. The reunification of his beloved Soviet union.
He's not bothered who gets in the way least of all the citizens of the Ukraine who led normal lives for decades now stick in the firing line . | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:04 - Feb 25 with 2709 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 00:30 - Feb 25 by kensalriser |
Zelensky is a pretty shrewd operator if he has neo-Nazis on his side, considering his Jewish origins.
And you're putting in quite a lot of effort explaining Putin's side of things for someone who claims he doesn't support his actions. |
Not sure how many more times I have to preface comments by saying I don't support Putin - he can rot in hell for all I care. For arguments sake from now on I won't even refer to him but rather to the strategic interests of Russia because that's what we're dealing with here.
Please correct me if I'm wrong about Ukraine's Azov Battalion:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10515451/Babushka-battalion-training-Uk
Daily Mail seem to be the only news source here willing to run the story along with the Sun... | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:29 - Feb 25 with 2637 views | gobbles |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:04 - Feb 25 by Orthodox_Hoop |
Not sure how many more times I have to preface comments by saying I don't support Putin - he can rot in hell for all I care. For arguments sake from now on I won't even refer to him but rather to the strategic interests of Russia because that's what we're dealing with here.
Please correct me if I'm wrong about Ukraine's Azov Battalion:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10515451/Babushka-battalion-training-Uk
Daily Mail seem to be the only news source here willing to run the story along with the Sun... |
I don't understand why you are tarring all of Ukraine's forces and government on the basis of that. If the UK was invaded and the EDL got together their little militia to fight invaders, would that mean all British people supported them. What you are saying sounds exactly like the narrative being pushed out every hour by RT. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:32 - Feb 25 with 2618 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:29 - Feb 25 by gobbles |
I don't understand why you are tarring all of Ukraine's forces and government on the basis of that. If the UK was invaded and the EDL got together their little militia to fight invaders, would that mean all British people supported them. What you are saying sounds exactly like the narrative being pushed out every hour by RT. |
You don't understand why I'm tarring Neo-Nazis? Ok, I'm out. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:35 - Feb 25 with 2598 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:29 - Feb 25 by gobbles |
I don't understand why you are tarring all of Ukraine's forces and government on the basis of that. If the UK was invaded and the EDL got together their little militia to fight invaders, would that mean all British people supported them. What you are saying sounds exactly like the narrative being pushed out every hour by RT. |
I don't think he's saying that at all, to be fair Gobbles.
He's saying, and I quote, that The Ukraine have "Neo Nazi thugs in the Azov Battalion" which is surely indisputable, and it's only one of many points he has made.
I'm not aiming this at you, Gobbles, i promise, but can we not fall into the trap of pushing each other onto "sides". I see nothing but universal condemnation of Putin on here. I am, however, learning a lot about other aspects of the situation, that learning will stop if we're all painted into corners. |  |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:56 - Feb 25 with 2512 views | gobbles |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 09:32 - Feb 25 by Orthodox_Hoop |
You don't understand why I'm tarring Neo-Nazis? Ok, I'm out. |
How disingenuous of you. Is Zelensky a neo-Nazi? That is the point you are clearly making | | | |
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