| Brexit, not happening now?? on 15:41 - Nov 3 with 1697 views | FDC |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 15:32 - Nov 3 by MedwayR |
Correct me if I'm wrong but this is about Parliament voting on triggering Article 50, not the terms of any 'deal' struck?
In which case it seems a bit of a pointless court case as Parliament will almost certainly carry out the wishes of the people and all this court case will have achieved is to extend the process of triggering Article 50 and the associated uncertainty that goes with it thereby potentially damaging economy etc.
The Government was (unless they win an appeal) wrong in the first instance but two wrongs don't make a right and I don't see this as a victory for anyone. |
But how exactly do you glean the wishes of the people from a simple Yes / No referendum? That's the point. The various potential terms of Brexit are endlessly complicated.
The court ruling opens this up to parliamentary over-sight and intervention, rather than a couple of Tory ministers making it up in private.
No one's claiming that this will or should prevent Brexit per se. |  | |  |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 16:04 - Nov 3 with 1648 views | MedwayR |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 15:41 - Nov 3 by FDC |
But how exactly do you glean the wishes of the people from a simple Yes / No referendum? That's the point. The various potential terms of Brexit are endlessly complicated.
The court ruling opens this up to parliamentary over-sight and intervention, rather than a couple of Tory ministers making it up in private.
No one's claiming that this will or should prevent Brexit per se. |
Maybe I'm being simple but I'm not sure it does, my understanding is that the court case is about triggering Article 50 not the negotiations that will follow.
My understanding is that Parliament will now vote on whether to trigger Article 50, they will presumably vote to trigger it & then we begin negotiations. This court case doesn't mean Parliament gets to vote on the outcome of those negotiations.
The negotiations absolutely need input from Parliament, but does this court case achieve this? |  |
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| Brexit, not happening now?? on 16:17 - Nov 3 with 1619 views | FDC |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 16:04 - Nov 3 by MedwayR |
Maybe I'm being simple but I'm not sure it does, my understanding is that the court case is about triggering Article 50 not the negotiations that will follow.
My understanding is that Parliament will now vote on whether to trigger Article 50, they will presumably vote to trigger it & then we begin negotiations. This court case doesn't mean Parliament gets to vote on the outcome of those negotiations.
The negotiations absolutely need input from Parliament, but does this court case achieve this? |
As I understand it the vote on whether to trigger A50 will be based upon hearing what the governments plans for leaving actually are (e.g. "hard/soft brexit"). If parliament doesn't like the vision they present theoretically they can vote against triggering A50. I'm not necessarily saying that that is likely to happen. But at the very least it means there will be some interrogation. | | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 16:28 - Nov 3 with 1587 views | londonscottish |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 12:18 - Nov 3 by BlackCrowe |
It's called the British legal process mate - something that Brexiters were championing for protection of as a reason for leaving the EU, but only when it suits it seems. |
LOL :-)
Sherwood and Boris out. |  |
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| Brexit, not happening now?? on 16:32 - Nov 3 with 1575 views | MedwayR |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 16:17 - Nov 3 by FDC |
As I understand it the vote on whether to trigger A50 will be based upon hearing what the governments plans for leaving actually are (e.g. "hard/soft brexit"). If parliament doesn't like the vision they present theoretically they can vote against triggering A50. I'm not necessarily saying that that is likely to happen. But at the very least it means there will be some interrogation. |
Ok, that makes sense and gives some value to the court case.
I can see this all getting very messy with ulterior motives and all kinds of sub-plots being played out, the potential to go around in circles at government level before triggering Article 50 then the same again with the EU.
I'd have thought a Parliamentary vote on the final agreements would be of more importance, is that going to happen or likely to? | |
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| Brexit, not happening now?? on 16:52 - Nov 3 with 1538 views | FDC |
I've no idea. I'm not sure anyone really knows what's going to happen down the line. Today's ruling seems to have come as a bit of shock to the government. | | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 17:15 - Nov 3 with 1501 views | Hoop_Du_Jour |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 14:22 - Nov 3 by FDC |
don't delay just pull the thing out
Great scheme. Should we not worry about getting some trade deals in place? Which would need some civil servants who know something about negotiating trade deals. But oh shit we got rid of most of the civil service and don't have any trade deal negotiating expertise in the country because they all work for the EU.
But yeah fck it let's just pull the plug and stand with our fingers up towards Europe as we go down the drain.
Never has jingoism and little-England tribalism been so triumphant over common sense. [Post edited 3 Nov 2016 14:40]
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"But yeah fck it let's just pull the plug and stand with our fingers up towards Europe as we go down the drain."
What's so special about the European market? We can enhance trade deals we already have and expand more with the rest of the world. The European market is only a fraction of the trade opportunities out there and I shall have a two fingered salute on my gravestone squarely pointing at Brussels.
You call the Brexiters Little Englanders, yet you can't see beyond the EU and it's trade bondage!!
Sherwood in! |  | | |
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| Brexit, not happening now?? on 17:20 - Nov 3 with 1486 views | QPR_John |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 16:17 - Nov 3 by FDC |
As I understand it the vote on whether to trigger A50 will be based upon hearing what the governments plans for leaving actually are (e.g. "hard/soft brexit"). If parliament doesn't like the vision they present theoretically they can vote against triggering A50. I'm not necessarily saying that that is likely to happen. But at the very least it means there will be some interrogation. |
But what is the point. The government could quite easily put a simple motion that article 50 is triggered would any MP vote against that. As I understand it this would satisfy the legal ruling. |  | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 17:25 - Nov 3 with 1474 views | Mytch_QPR |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 17:20 - Nov 3 by QPR_John |
But what is the point. The government could quite easily put a simple motion that article 50 is triggered would any MP vote against that. As I understand it this would satisfy the legal ruling. |
The SNP would, for a start. Also a whole load of Labour MPs (especially those from constituencies who voted to remain), Northern Ireland MPs... |  |
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| Brexit, not happening now?? on 17:36 - Nov 3 with 1449 views | Juzzie |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 14:26 - Nov 3 by FDC |
That's democracy
Well, no - that's a referendum. |
No, it is democracy. There was a referendum circa 2011 that asked whether we should stay with or change the first-past-the-post voting systems. 72% said stay, so that's what happened. The result of the referendum stood.
I do agree that the margin is incredibly slim but that's how it currently works. If people are saying "it's too an important situation to be decided on a 52/48 swing" then that should have been factored in at the very beginning that it had to be a clear majority as it was obvious the margin would be tight. |  | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 17:50 - Nov 3 with 1427 views | BasingstokeR |
I'm supporting the pre-emptive Sherwexit / SherwuggerOff campaign.
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| Brexit, not happening now?? on 17:57 - Nov 3 with 1404 views | izlingtonhoop |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 17:36 - Nov 3 by Juzzie |
No, it is democracy. There was a referendum circa 2011 that asked whether we should stay with or change the first-past-the-post voting systems. 72% said stay, so that's what happened. The result of the referendum stood.
I do agree that the margin is incredibly slim but that's how it currently works. If people are saying "it's too an important situation to be decided on a 52/48 swing" then that should have been factored in at the very beginning that it had to be a clear majority as it was obvious the margin would be tight. |
You're right, it really should have been.
At the moment it really isn't "the people have spoken". It's a draw. The people are in two minds. |  | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 18:20 - Nov 3 with 1375 views | BasingstokeR |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 17:36 - Nov 3 by Juzzie |
No, it is democracy. There was a referendum circa 2011 that asked whether we should stay with or change the first-past-the-post voting systems. 72% said stay, so that's what happened. The result of the referendum stood.
I do agree that the margin is incredibly slim but that's how it currently works. If people are saying "it's too an important situation to be decided on a 52/48 swing" then that should have been factored in at the very beginning that it had to be a clear majority as it was obvious the margin would be tight. |
Its 'ALL' democracy isn't it?
Ignoring the fact that it should perhaps really have been about STV rather than AV. The referendum on voting reform, whilst similar to Brexit on the "bad-tempered and ill-informed public debate" aspect the 2011 vote was a different beast in terms of the actual question and how is was setup/carried out.
"At present, the UK uses the "first past the post" system to elect MPs to the House of Commons. Should the "alternative vote" system be used instead?" Yes / No
67.9 % said "No" to AV. But it was no to something pretty well defined and singular.
'Brexitising' the above would arguably make it more;
"At present, the UK uses the "first past the post" system to elect MPs to the House of Commons. Should the we abandon the current system?" Yes / No
If people had voted "Yes" to this question; wouldn't it be fair for Parliament to take the mandate and then start to decide (and subsequently vote on) what the plan was?
MPs voted in the region of 6-1 in favour of the Brexit referendum being consultative (non-binding); whereas the 2011 referendum was post-legislative - e.g. legally committing the government to give effect to the decision. | | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 18:34 - Nov 3 with 1353 views | derbyhoop |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 14:20 - Nov 3 by JAPRANGERS |
So is it likely that the The Supreme Court will overturn this High Court decision in December?? Any legal types on here?? |
A lawyer was explaining the judgement. It was so decisive, rather than wrapped in caveats, that an appeal to the Supreme Court is likely to fail.
When we "Take back control" the expectation is that our sovereign Parliament does the taking, rather than the PM acting as a monarch. The court has ruled in favour of Parliament. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Brexit, not happening now?? on 18:36 - Nov 3 with 1351 views | RBlock |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 14:20 - Nov 3 by JAPRANGERS |
So is it likely that the The Supreme Court will overturn this High Court decision in December?? Any legal types on here?? |
As it stands I can imagine the Supreme Court will side with the High Court, however it all depends on the submissions from counsel when the case is reheard, and a re-reading of the '72 Act. All centres on the technical wording of the '72 Act and whether it was implied that the Gov has the power to leave contained in the Royal Prerogative. Usually RP just used when debating foreign treaties ect, and has no effect on the rights of UK citizens. As this inevitably will remove rights from the UK the appellants argue that the rights inferred by the '72 Act require parliamentary assent to remove, there by preserving Parliamentary Sovereignty.
Re: QPR John. A large proportion of politicians would vote down an Art 50 vote as it stands, as May and others seem determined to push on with 'hard brexit'. The argument will be that due to the slight difference in the referendum, the Gov owes it to the electorate to seek a more nuanced deal rather then just cutting all ties and going it alone, i.e. free movement of goods and whether or not that means free movement of people also, and to what extent.
Everyone losing their shit claiming democracy is dead need to get a grip and realise we live in a representative democracy, this is not ancient Athens or Switzerland. We elect MPs not solely to enact our political will, but also to act in the best interests of their constituents. In theory. |  | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 18:57 - Nov 3 with 1319 views | 1BobbyHazell |
No Remainers wishing to discuss this week's hastily pushed through CETA then?
There's a surprise.
I'm not claiming everything about the EU is awful, but if you follow how TTIP and CETA have been created and their key edicts, I really cannot fathom how you are not at least questioning where the central power base at the EU are pushing us and who, or should I say what, they really represent. [Post edited 3 Nov 2016 19:00]
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| Brexit, not happening now?? on 19:04 - Nov 3 with 1304 views | essextaxiboy |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 18:34 - Nov 3 by derbyhoop |
A lawyer was explaining the judgement. It was so decisive, rather than wrapped in caveats, that an appeal to the Supreme Court is likely to fail.
When we "Take back control" the expectation is that our sovereign Parliament does the taking, rather than the PM acting as a monarch. The court has ruled in favour of Parliament. |
Ha Ha We agree .
The law is clear , to trigger Article 50 would affect rights enshrined in law . Only Parliament can do that .
Dont hold your breath for a no vote though . Best guesses in interviews that I have heard is that around 50 MPs will say no to the trigger . Presumably those whose constituents voted to stay .
Around 75% of constituencys voted to leave so you would expect those MPs to say yes ... or face some pelters on their own patch . As well as the good old principle of carrying ou the will of the people of course .
It will be interesting to see how Jezza votes .
Taking back control cuts both ways |  | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 19:26 - Nov 3 with 1269 views | ingeminate |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 18:57 - Nov 3 by 1BobbyHazell |
No Remainers wishing to discuss this week's hastily pushed through CETA then?
There's a surprise.
I'm not claiming everything about the EU is awful, but if you follow how TTIP and CETA have been created and their key edicts, I really cannot fathom how you are not at least questioning where the central power base at the EU are pushing us and who, or should I say what, they really represent. [Post edited 3 Nov 2016 19:00]
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I've read a fair bit about all this but so far only on v. biased websites whose frantic paranoia about everything business turns me off. Any chance you have a link to anything more objective? |  |
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| Brexit, not happening now?? on 19:27 - Nov 3 with 1269 views | kensalriser |
Brexiters should be happy with this, because it means that when parliament ratifies the invoking of Article 50 (which it will), there will be no possibility of legal challenges after the event.
Why anyone would think that this decision means Brexit won't happen is hard to fathom, something I've heard a lot of today. Some people need to engage their brains before piping up. [Post edited 3 Nov 2016 19:32]
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| Brexit, not happening now?? on 19:30 - Nov 3 with 1265 views | WatfordR |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 16:17 - Nov 3 by FDC |
As I understand it the vote on whether to trigger A50 will be based upon hearing what the governments plans for leaving actually are (e.g. "hard/soft brexit"). If parliament doesn't like the vision they present theoretically they can vote against triggering A50. I'm not necessarily saying that that is likely to happen. But at the very least it means there will be some interrogation. |
Yeah that's how I understand it too.
Looks like a massive spanner in the works for Theresa May, as having to outline what she wants from the negotiations and what she is actually going to get will be two very very different things I suspect.
Would have been preferable (for her) to have continued to spout the line that "we won't be updating everyone on what we're trying to do every step of the way" and manage down expectations as time goes along.
Would expect plenty of effort going into overturning the High Court decison on appeal. |  | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 19:37 - Nov 3 with 1247 views | Hoop_Du_Jour |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 19:27 - Nov 3 by kensalriser |
Brexiters should be happy with this, because it means that when parliament ratifies the invoking of Article 50 (which it will), there will be no possibility of legal challenges after the event.
Why anyone would think that this decision means Brexit won't happen is hard to fathom, something I've heard a lot of today. Some people need to engage their brains before piping up. [Post edited 3 Nov 2016 19:32]
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The way it is now the Government wouldn't be able to muster enough votes for the type of deal it wants. If the appeal fails a snap general election looms in which the tories would most likely gain a landslide victory and therefore enough MPs to push through a Brexit without the wringing hands of the left all over it. | | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 19:37 - Nov 3 with 1247 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 19:26 - Nov 3 by ingeminate |
I've read a fair bit about all this but so far only on v. biased websites whose frantic paranoia about everything business turns me off. Any chance you have a link to anything more objective? |
I've got just the thing Ingeminate. Thanks for asking!
I'm pretty confident you won't find anything more in depth or analytical than this. But if you do please link me in.
https://corporateeurope.org/international-trade/2016/10/great-ceta-swindle
Be interested to hear any thoughts.
Peace | | | |
| Brexit, not happening now?? on 21:27 - Nov 3 with 1754 views | distortR |
very informative link. Have started digging my bunker, the razor wire arrives in a fortnight. Fxxk off world.
In or out of europe, does it really matter when government at it's top level only seems to represent big business?
Somehow, "timmy, or not timmy, that is the question" seems irrelevant.
Edit.Plans now on hold. Apparently one cannot build a bunker on the grounds of one's council house. Since when did an englishman's home stop being his castle? [Post edited 3 Nov 2016 21:55]
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