| The Tories Are Bonkers! 08:51 - Dec 12 with 45059 views | BostonR |
Have been in the US since the summer and arrived back this week and going to the game on Sat.
I have watched the carnage in the US political system, but that was evened-out in the mid-term elections. Watching the madness this morning, it looks like a Tory coup by the ERG and other right-wing nut-cases.
I am no Tory, but May has to see them off before they throw this country under the bus! |  | | |  |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:08 - Dec 13 with 2005 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 12:01 - Dec 13 by BasingstokeR |
The 'backstop' is something post 29th March after we've left though?
The misunderstanding is that being in the transition post leaving is somehow still being in the EU no? |
Nobody can see into the future so all we have is the rules as they are now. If the backstop stays as it is the EU will still have control after 29th March. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:08 - Dec 13 with 2004 views | Toast_R |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 12:29 - Dec 13 by Mytch_QPR |
Okay - you have a point, but political parties would not stay in power if they dropped a major bollock - just look at Labour and the global crash in 2008.
If the current lot crashed out of the EU without any deals / border arrangements they'd long be remembered for the consequences.
They won't let that happen - clearly that's why we have the current state of paralysis. |
Mate, I'm not so sure it was the crash that lead to Labour losing a majority in 2010. I think we all know it was down to the unappealing Gordon Brown and the old lady that went out for a loaf of Bread and came back home having brought down a Government. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:27 - Dec 13 with 1933 views | BasingstokeR |
So you don't want to Leave then? |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:36 - Dec 13 with 1909 views | THEBUSH |
What a load of miserable people those Brexit voters are  |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:38 - Dec 13 with 1900 views | Mytch_QPR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:08 - Dec 13 by Toast_R |
Mate, I'm not so sure it was the crash that lead to Labour losing a majority in 2010. I think we all know it was down to the unappealing Gordon Brown and the old lady that went out for a loaf of Bread and came back home having brought down a Government. |
I had to think about that for a moment - you're referring to the 'microphone on' moment that shouldn't have happened?
Going back to the original comment about politicians, I think Brown was one of the few really committed politicians and it's a shame he had very little time to bring his policies in to being. He had substance, but no style. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:45 - Dec 13 with 1872 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:38 - Dec 13 by Mytch_QPR |
I had to think about that for a moment - you're referring to the 'microphone on' moment that shouldn't have happened?
Going back to the original comment about politicians, I think Brown was one of the few really committed politicians and it's a shame he had very little time to bring his policies in to being. He had substance, but no style. |
Did not the microphone on moment show Brown had very little substance. Two faced like every other politician | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:04 - Dec 13 with 1832 views | Mytch_QPR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:45 - Dec 13 by QPR_John |
Did not the microphone on moment show Brown had very little substance. Two faced like every other politician |
We all have our off days 
Actually (and we're going off topic here from the great debate) I think that moment showed how much he hated doing the election bit - holding the baby etc - and that was his downfall. A clever mind and a hard worker but lacking the flair of Blair. That was why he worked best as the second in command. | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:08 - Dec 13 with 1816 views | colinallcars |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 13:45 - Dec 13 by QPR_John |
Did not the microphone on moment show Brown had very little substance. Two faced like every other politician |
Mr Brown was a son of the Manse - a highy principled and honest man. I think he was underrated as a politician and deserved better. It was his speech which was largely credited with swaying Scottish voters to vote stay in the Scottish referendum. As for the incident when he called the woman a bigot, well, her remarks might well have seemed bigotry in the context.
I think history will view him favourably despite what some say. |  | | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:13 - Dec 13 with 1796 views | Mytch_QPR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:08 - Dec 13 by colinallcars |
Mr Brown was a son of the Manse - a highy principled and honest man. I think he was underrated as a politician and deserved better. It was his speech which was largely credited with swaying Scottish voters to vote stay in the Scottish referendum. As for the incident when he called the woman a bigot, well, her remarks might well have seemed bigotry in the context.
I think history will view him favourably despite what some say. |
Agreed - all of which makes you wonder whether Labour may have stayed in power were it not for that incident and we wouldn't be putting ourselves through the Brexit shambles now - I can't think of too many Europhobes on the fringes of the Labour party.
Interesting how one relatively small thing like that can alter the course of history. | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:21 - Dec 13 with 1781 views | loftboy |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:08 - Dec 13 by colinallcars |
Mr Brown was a son of the Manse - a highy principled and honest man. I think he was underrated as a politician and deserved better. It was his speech which was largely credited with swaying Scottish voters to vote stay in the Scottish referendum. As for the incident when he called the woman a bigot, well, her remarks might well have seemed bigotry in the context.
I think history will view him favourably despite what some say. |
He also went through personal tradgedy that no parent should go through. He was head and shoulders and probably torso above Blair as far as I’m concerned. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:48 - Dec 13 with 1731 views | PinnerPaul |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 08:25 - Dec 13 by Northernr |
I am enjoying that fcking wnkr Jacob Rees Mogg (recently brilliantly described as looking like a haunted Oxfam shop) doing the rounds last night saying that even though May has won this vote she should go to the Queen and resign anyway.
48-52 vote. Binding. Will of the people. Must be obeyed to the absolute nth degree.
200-117. Load of bolox. Dreadful result for the winner. Must resign. |
Indeed - 63/37 I make it! | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:02 - Dec 13 with 1697 views | Toast_R |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 14:21 - Dec 13 by loftboy |
He also went through personal tradgedy that no parent should go through. He was head and shoulders and probably torso above Blair as far as I’m concerned. |
Gordon Brown, the man who as Chancellor of the Exchequer, was asleep at the wheel as the Banks basically did what they wanted for years on his watch until they brought down the worlds finances. The man who had been telling our pensioners to save and invest their money away... The man who pissed away the Treasury's Gold reserves for peanuts. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:09 - Dec 13 with 1680 views | BucksRanger |
While stitching up the hand of a 75 year old Devon farmer, who cut it on a gate while working cattle, the rural doctor struck up a conversation with the old man.
Eventually the topic got around to Gordon Brown and his appointment as Prime Minister.
”Well, you know, drawled the old farmer, this Brown fellow is what we in Devon call a fencepost tortoise.”
Not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked him what a fencepost tortoise was.
The old farmer said, “When you’re driving along a country road and you come across a fence post with a tortoise balanced on top, that's called a fencepost tortoise.”
The old farmer saw a puzzled look on the doctor’s face, so he continued to explain:
“You know he didn’t get up there by himself, he definitely doesn’t belong up there, he doesn’t know what to do while he is up there, and you just have to wonder what kind of idiot put him up there in the first place.” |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:40 - Dec 13 with 1632 views | Northernr |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:02 - Dec 13 by Toast_R |
Gordon Brown, the man who as Chancellor of the Exchequer, was asleep at the wheel as the Banks basically did what they wanted for years on his watch until they brought down the worlds finances. The man who had been telling our pensioners to save and invest their money away... The man who pissed away the Treasury's Gold reserves for peanuts. |
Yeh, this is like when QPR players are out of action for a while. People start pining for glory days that didn't exist. Nothing raises the profile of a QPR player in the eyes of QPR fans more than him not playing at all. Bright Osayi-Samuel is about six more weeks of inaction and three more poor Wszolek performances away from being better than Trevor Sinclair. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:55 - Dec 13 with 1598 views | colinallcars |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 15:02 - Dec 13 by Toast_R |
Gordon Brown, the man who as Chancellor of the Exchequer, was asleep at the wheel as the Banks basically did what they wanted for years on his watch until they brought down the worlds finances. The man who had been telling our pensioners to save and invest their money away... The man who pissed away the Treasury's Gold reserves for peanuts. |
I think the banking crisis was world-wide and started in America. Mr Brown brought in some useful reformations to the finance industry. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:35 - Dec 13 with 1548 views | derbyhoop |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 12:59 - Dec 13 by R_from_afar |
It just isn't that simple. We need to decide:
- how we want to trade with the EU once we are out
- what to do about Europeans who already live, work and pay tax here
- what to do about ex-pats living in continental Europe
- disentangle ourselves from 45 years' worth of treaties, standards and regulations, many of which benefit us
- what we do about allowing EU citizens to work here post-Brexit; bear in mind that we have record levels of employment and crippling staff shortages in many areas, e.g. the NHS, for both highly skilled and less skilled workers. The Tories appear to be failing to understand the realities of the current labour market; yes we will need very talented people but we will also need cheaper, less skilled labour to work in - random examples - agriculture, the care industry, hospitals...
There is no cave system harbouring millions of highly skilled workers - all of whom can point to their surname in the Doomsday Book - who have been waiting for overseas workers to clear off so they can step in and start being gainfully employed.
OK, I am a Labour voter, but it really worries me that some - not all - Tories simply do not understand the realities of modern Britain. You can add the situation with employment and benefits into the mix too: It's a fallacy that benefits primarily go to the unemployed. More claimants have jobs than not.
And breathe...
RFA |
As you say, it isn't simple. Anybody who truly believes that
Leave/Remain is black and white is missing a lot of grey areas. Its why we couldnt (and shouldnt) distil such a complex issue to a binary choice.
What we have found out over the last 2 years is that the UK economy is closely intertwined with our nearest neighbours and pulling us out does not come without serious damage. I worked in multinational teams in Dublin, Manchester and Bradford. It is the norm. We know of relationships between UK and EU citizens that might need to be destroyed in the name of Brexit. How do you undo those situations? Should you?
The choices boil down to leave via the negotiated deal (or a minor variant of it); No Deal or No Brexit. The deal is probably as good as it is likely to get and still doesn't address future relationships. No Deal will devastate the UK economy, by the government's own assessments, for years and very few MPs wll sanction it. Is No Brexit better than the May deal?
For me there is no doubt We Should Remain. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:10 - Dec 13 with 1513 views | QPR_John |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 16:35 - Dec 13 by derbyhoop |
As you say, it isn't simple. Anybody who truly believes that
Leave/Remain is black and white is missing a lot of grey areas. Its why we couldnt (and shouldnt) distil such a complex issue to a binary choice.
What we have found out over the last 2 years is that the UK economy is closely intertwined with our nearest neighbours and pulling us out does not come without serious damage. I worked in multinational teams in Dublin, Manchester and Bradford. It is the norm. We know of relationships between UK and EU citizens that might need to be destroyed in the name of Brexit. How do you undo those situations? Should you?
The choices boil down to leave via the negotiated deal (or a minor variant of it); No Deal or No Brexit. The deal is probably as good as it is likely to get and still doesn't address future relationships. No Deal will devastate the UK economy, by the government's own assessments, for years and very few MPs wll sanction it. Is No Brexit better than the May deal?
For me there is no doubt We Should Remain. |
"For me there is no doubt We Should Remain."
Put yourself in Brussels shoes should we stay. One of the biggest economies in the EU at least in the top three along with Germany and France was frightened to leave. Don't think Brussels will not see the advantage it gives them. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:09 - Dec 13 with 1429 views | colinallcars |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 17:10 - Dec 13 by QPR_John |
"For me there is no doubt We Should Remain."
Put yourself in Brussels shoes should we stay. One of the biggest economies in the EU at least in the top three along with Germany and France was frightened to leave. Don't think Brussels will not see the advantage it gives them. |
If we stay on we will be at the same level as the other EU countries so advantage doesn't come in to it. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:25 - Dec 13 with 1412 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:17 - Dec 12 by QPR_John |
What would be your view if a second referendum gave a 52 48 vote in favour of leaving. Would you campaign for a third referendum. |
Well, as I've said a couple of times already, any second referendum should be undertaken on the basis that the result is binding.
We as a nation have taken already decision on a question with almost no information available as to what the consequences might be. If we as a nation have the opportunity to answer the same question (or more likely a variation of the same question) again, this time with access to some reasonable analysis and forecasts of what the consequences might be, then whatever decision the nation comes to should be the end of the debate, and should be binding. |  | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:35 - Dec 13 with 1402 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
Belgium's Prime Minister Charles Michel says Brexit threatens 70,000 jobs in Belgium "if there is no good agreement that protects our economic interests and our citizens".
Research by the House of Commons Library shows that in 2017 the UK's total exports to the rest of the EU were worth £274bn. Total imports from the EU were £342bn.
The EU accounted for 44.5% of the UK's exports and 53% of the UK's imports.
UK imports from Belgium were 4.4% of total imports, and exports to Belgium were 3% of the total.
They need us that's why they don't want us to leave
The utter shame is that we have let them dictate the terms and May has bent over to let them feck her and us
Stay in and they will see us as weak and do whatever they like knowing we will come to heal like a dog.
The die is cast, get on with getting out. |  |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:06 - Dec 13 with 1368 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:31 - Dec 12 by daveB |
but would it affect us for decades? If we have a second vote and end up remaining whose to say we won't have another vote in 2 years after we see how that goes.
The original vote was do you want to leave or not, what the deal looks like wasn't on that ballot paper so going back and saying are you sure doesn't seem right.
What should have happened was the leave side won so parliament respects that, all parties work together to get the best outcome for this country, instead they have shown themselves to be only interested in themselves and their own viewpoint and have come back with something no one seems to want. |
"but would it affect us for decades? If we have a second vote and end up remaining whose to say we won't have another vote in 2 years after we see how that goes."
Well if a second referendum was legally binding upon the Government to act in accordance with the result, that would be that. It's possible that somewhere down the road, we as a nation might want to consider re-applying for membership of the EU, but that would be a different question and almost certainly not one that would occur in the short to medium term. And the Government could if it wished pass legislation to prohibit such a question for a period of time.
"The original vote was do you want to leave or not, what the deal looks like wasn't on that ballot paper so going back and saying are you sure doesn't seem right."
I don't believe that you or anyone else is going to deny that some of the propaganda used to promote Leave in the Referendum was, shall we say "misleading". Perhaps the biggest complaint I had about the process was the ability of the Leave campaign to suggest certain benefits from leaving, like re-directing the £350million weekly payment to the EU to the NHS instead. They had no mandate to suggest anything, yet were allowed to campaign almost as if a political party seeking election. Some may have seen through that, but I can guarantee you not everyone who voted did.
I'd therefore suggest that with the information available to people now, going back to the people to say "are you sure" is absolutely right, not least morally. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:20 - Dec 13 with 1355 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 11:00 - Dec 13 by QPR_John |
I think there is a little misunderstanding here. The reference to the EU not letting us leave refers to the backstop not article 50 |
The EU can't stop the UK leaving. That would be the "No Deal" option. If the UK government perceived that leaving whatever was favourable to the UK, they would undoubtedly take the "No Deal" option to do so. But let's not pretend the EU are being the bad guys here just because the UK has put itself in an ill conceived mess. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:23 - Dec 13 with 1350 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:39 - Dec 12 by QPR_John |
But would the EU act logically or simply try to make an example to anybody else who dared to try to leave |
Arguably, the UK is currently doing more to discourage any other country from leaving than the EU is. | | | |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:29 - Dec 13 with 1342 views | loftboy |
17 million voted to leave, should Brexit get cancelled then the vast majority like myself would be mightily pissed off and protest silently like never voting again and not resorting to violence, but I’m sure that there’s a percentage that voted to leave who will cause absolute carnage should it be reversed, I’d say that the 700000 who turned out for the anti- Brexit march would look like a meet up in a phonebox compared to what will happen.
People are saying this country will become anarchy should we leave without a deal well I think we will see plenty of anarchy should we end up remaining. | |
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| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:40 - Dec 13 with 1329 views | WatfordR |
| The Tories Are Bonkers! on 20:29 - Dec 13 by loftboy |
17 million voted to leave, should Brexit get cancelled then the vast majority like myself would be mightily pissed off and protest silently like never voting again and not resorting to violence, but I’m sure that there’s a percentage that voted to leave who will cause absolute carnage should it be reversed, I’d say that the 700000 who turned out for the anti- Brexit march would look like a meet up in a phonebox compared to what will happen.
People are saying this country will become anarchy should we leave without a deal well I think we will see plenty of anarchy should we end up remaining. |
Strangely, 16 million voted to stay and whilst being pissed off, I haven't seen them causing absolute carnage or anarchy because they didn't get their way. | | | |
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