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Have been in the US since the summer and arrived back this week and going to the game on Sat.
I have watched the carnage in the US political system, but that was evened-out in the mid-term elections. Watching the madness this morning, it looks like a Tory coup by the ERG and other right-wing nut-cases.
I am no Tory, but May has to see them off before they throw this country under the bus!
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:37 - Dec 12 with 2206 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:26 - Dec 12 by QPR_John
Don't you think any democratic organisation would allow a member to leave smoothly having given a notice. Make it two years in which the the departing member can make external deals even with the EU itself ready to sign when the notice time is up. You cannot plan to leave the EU because their rules do not allow it.
surely you have to agree your final relationship with the bloc first? you can't be in a customs union and then set up incompatible deals with third parties.
A magnificent football club, the love of our lives, finding a way to finally have its day in the sun.
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:34 - Dec 12 by daveB
That is true but I'm not sure them saying no you can't go and keeping us locked in does them any favours long term. Far more intelligent people than me would explain it better but that to me would sound like a tw atish move
But would the EU act logically or simply try to make an example to anybody else who dared to try to leave
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:39 - Dec 12 with 2200 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 21:36 - Dec 12 by loftboy
Which takes you back to my previous post about being held by the Gonads.
It was our choice to sign up to the CU. It was our (Thatcher) efforts that went a long way to creating the SM. It was UK and Eire that negotated the GFA. It was our PM who set out red lines that made the above initiatives incompatible.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:46 - Dec 12 with 2182 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:27 - Dec 12 by daveB
It would still be the same vote again as in leave or remain just with more information. I'm not sure the result would be hugely different, possibly 52/48 for remain this time but another vote wouldn't end the split we have in this country
We've got the two main parties both saying they are committed to leaving, Ok we know thats not true as Labour want a second vote and to remain but taking them at their word if they both want to leave then why add remain to a second vote, it wouldn't make any sense.
If the vote was 65/35 leave then it would be entirely pointless keeping remain as an option but it was close enough that the subsequent fumbling around, breaking of promises and inquiry into the leave campaign finances might have changed opinions substantially and enough to give remain a greater majority. Obviously nobody knows if that is the case, it may still be 52/48 but there's only one way to find out...
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:47 - Dec 12 with 2176 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:37 - Dec 12 by hopphoops
surely you have to agree your final relationship with the bloc first? you can't be in a customs union and then set up incompatible deals with third parties.
Why not, you would negotiate your final relationship with the EU during the notice period but also with other countries. If the EU refused to negotiate then that would be their right. What the EU would fear is that you could negotiate a better deal.
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:48 - Dec 12 with 2174 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:10 - Dec 12 by hopphoops
Years is optimistic tbh.
I agree that most people who voted leave did so envisaging a clean break more than a fudge; and I can see the appeal of leaving and then negotiating new deals from scratch rather than keeping existing membership privileges but then living in fear of making new legislation that may not be in line with the rules.
I also understand that people vote according to their sense of identity before economic concerns. I feel British and European (i've been in Italy, France and Switzerland for 15 years now) but others may not and if they make up the majority then so be it, why stick around.
But a no-deal Britain will NOT be in a good position to make favourable deals. It's all very well to dream of a low-regulation tax haven like the Rees Moggites or an anti-globalist people's state, but if you can't feed your population, ensure they have fuel and make their medicine, you are going to be taken to the cleaners by all and sundry. It doesn't help if you're running a big debt and you're trapped in a zero-interest economy.
Nobody knows what is going to happen tomorrow let alone next year, but in my mind there is a real possibility of a properly deep and enduring shitstorm waiting for you all.
Like you I feel British and European. My parents were economic migrants in the 1940s. I've worked in Germany, France and Ireland. I'm living and working in France, now. Indent see the Sun as an enemy nor are they dictating to the UK.
I believe people voted Leave for 2 main reasons and a host of minor ones. It was anti-immigration and anti-austerity. Well EU immigration us at its lowest for 6 years and immigration from ROW is at its highest. Go figure! And austerity has cone from the UK govt. One can blame the EU but leaving won't end austerity. Leaving with no deal will make things worse. That's using government's own assessments.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:53 - Dec 12 with 2166 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:47 - Dec 12 by QPR_John
Why not, you would negotiate your final relationship with the EU during the notice period but also with other countries. If the EU refused to negotiate then that would be their right. What the EU would fear is that you could negotiate a better deal.
Governments wouldn't start negotiating until their counterpart's situation was defined. Probably every government in the world except for the current UK one would be engaging in informal preliminary talks though...
A magnificent football club, the love of our lives, finding a way to finally have its day in the sun.
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 19:42 - Dec 12 by QPR_John
Is that not 5 years
There's always another election to change things if a government goes wrong and if it goes really wrong it might not even take that long (leadership spills etc). Imagine being asked to accept the next election result as binding for perhaps 20 or 30 years with a 2% margin required. That's the approach the leave side is taking. Like being top of the league after 3 games and wanting to claim the title.
We're being asked to accept a vote won by 2% a couple of years ago as binding for the rest of time and are told this is democracy. Its plain for all to see what a mess this all is and no politician has the guts to stand up and say it because they are all into self preservation. May is a remainer but is pressing on with this nonsense, albeit a very watered down version that will render the whole thing pointless.
I think its fair to say that everyone knows a bit more about the implications of this than they did a couple of years ago so another vote is not undemocratic, quite the reverse. If leave wins again then so be it, they would have to somehow make it work without screwing the economy. Good luck with that.
What I really can't stomach is politicians, on all sides, who do not believe in leaving insisting in pressing on with this in the name of self preservation. Stand up for your principles and beliefs. Much as I disliked Mrs Thatcher she always stood behind what she believed. Likewise the likes of Tony Benn on the other side. Now we just have a bunch of gutless wonders who serve no useful purpose.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 23:08]
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 23:14 - Dec 12 with 2112 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 23:06 - Dec 12 by SydneyRs
There's always another election to change things if a government goes wrong and if it goes really wrong it might not even take that long (leadership spills etc). Imagine being asked to accept the next election result as binding for perhaps 20 or 30 years with a 2% margin required. That's the approach the leave side is taking. Like being top of the league after 3 games and wanting to claim the title.
We're being asked to accept a vote won by 2% a couple of years ago as binding for the rest of time and are told this is democracy. Its plain for all to see what a mess this all is and no politician has the guts to stand up and say it because they are all into self preservation. May is a remainer but is pressing on with this nonsense, albeit a very watered down version that will render the whole thing pointless.
I think its fair to say that everyone knows a bit more about the implications of this than they did a couple of years ago so another vote is not undemocratic, quite the reverse. If leave wins again then so be it, they would have to somehow make it work without screwing the economy. Good luck with that.
What I really can't stomach is politicians, on all sides, who do not believe in leaving insisting in pressing on with this in the name of self preservation. Stand up for your principles and beliefs. Much as I disliked Mrs Thatcher she always stood behind what she believed. Likewise the likes of Tony Benn on the other side. Now we just have a bunch of gutless wonders who serve no useful purpose.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 23:08]
"We're being asked to accept a vote won by 1% a couple of years ago as binding for the rest of time and are told this is democracy"
You make a valid point but it can also be used to ask for a third referendum by leavers should remain win the second. The only way is to state before any vote that the winning side needs a certain percentage. This was not done prior to the first referendum and you cannot change the rules after the event. Cameron was so sure of victory he did not think of the possiblilty of losing even by a narrow majority. If the rule had been put before the first referendum that at least there had to be a 60% vote to change the status quo then I would have accepted a 52 48 split to leave meant we would stay
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 23:23 - Dec 12 with 2104 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 23:06 - Dec 12 by SydneyRs
There's always another election to change things if a government goes wrong and if it goes really wrong it might not even take that long (leadership spills etc). Imagine being asked to accept the next election result as binding for perhaps 20 or 30 years with a 2% margin required. That's the approach the leave side is taking. Like being top of the league after 3 games and wanting to claim the title.
We're being asked to accept a vote won by 2% a couple of years ago as binding for the rest of time and are told this is democracy. Its plain for all to see what a mess this all is and no politician has the guts to stand up and say it because they are all into self preservation. May is a remainer but is pressing on with this nonsense, albeit a very watered down version that will render the whole thing pointless.
I think its fair to say that everyone knows a bit more about the implications of this than they did a couple of years ago so another vote is not undemocratic, quite the reverse. If leave wins again then so be it, they would have to somehow make it work without screwing the economy. Good luck with that.
What I really can't stomach is politicians, on all sides, who do not believe in leaving insisting in pressing on with this in the name of self preservation. Stand up for your principles and beliefs. Much as I disliked Mrs Thatcher she always stood behind what she believed. Likewise the likes of Tony Benn on the other side. Now we just have a bunch of gutless wonders who serve no useful purpose.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 23:08]
Do we have a vote every 2 years then until 1 side wins by a bigger majority? The welsh voted in a referendum a few years ago and voted narrowly for a Welsh assembly to be set up to deal with Welsh matters.Did the losers continually ask for another vote or did they just accept it? We had a people’s vote in 1975 and 2016.We have to deal with that result.
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 23:26 - Dec 12 with 2102 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:53 - Dec 12 by QPR_John
They were not in control of the negotiations because No 10 was in control it was nothing to do with the EU negotiators
Yeah, so David Davis couldn't even take control of the job he was given (Brexit Secretary) let along take back control from the EU. Says all you need to know about the relationship between what these politicians (Davis, Johnson, Give, Rees Mogg) think and reality.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 23:29]
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 23:36 - Dec 12 with 2090 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 22:37 - Dec 12 by hopphoops
surely you have to agree your final relationship with the bloc first? you can't be in a customs union and then set up incompatible deals with third parties.
We are probably the only country in the EU who abides by the rules, any other country notably Italy, Spain and Greece seem to do what they want, whilst in Rhodes this year we were encouraged to pay by cash so the money didn’t go through the banks so the retailers didn’t pay tax as they knew the money had to go to the EU to pay off their bailout. As a point of interest what consequences could they do to us had we negotiated behind their back?
favourite cheese mature Cheddar. FFS there is no such thing as the EPL
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 23:36 - Dec 12 by loftboy
We are probably the only country in the EU who abides by the rules, any other country notably Italy, Spain and Greece seem to do what they want, whilst in Rhodes this year we were encouraged to pay by cash so the money didn’t go through the banks so the retailers didn’t pay tax as they knew the money had to go to the EU to pay off their bailout. As a point of interest what consequences could they do to us had we negotiated behind their back?
You can add ireland as another who plays to the rules. Wed the harshest austerity measures in place ever and paid back all our euro bondholders
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 23:57 - Dec 12 with 2067 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 23:36 - Dec 12 by loftboy
We are probably the only country in the EU who abides by the rules, any other country notably Italy, Spain and Greece seem to do what they want, whilst in Rhodes this year we were encouraged to pay by cash so the money didn’t go through the banks so the retailers didn’t pay tax as they knew the money had to go to the EU to pay off their bailout. As a point of interest what consequences could they do to us had we negotiated behind their back?
I was thinking the government would be too disorganized to do it, not too straight. Normally I reckon they'd be going through diplomatic channels with, say, India, and agreeing to work on increasing trade in x, y and z and work together on projects in a, b, and c - but India wouldn't start on the nuts and bolts until Britain was actually out.
A magnificent football club, the love of our lives, finding a way to finally have its day in the sun.
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 23:14 - Dec 12 by QPR_John
"We're being asked to accept a vote won by 1% a couple of years ago as binding for the rest of time and are told this is democracy"
You make a valid point but it can also be used to ask for a third referendum by leavers should remain win the second. The only way is to state before any vote that the winning side needs a certain percentage. This was not done prior to the first referendum and you cannot change the rules after the event. Cameron was so sure of victory he did not think of the possiblilty of losing even by a narrow majority. If the rule had been put before the first referendum that at least there had to be a 60% vote to change the status quo then I would have accepted a 52 48 split to leave meant we would stay
Agreed, a minimum majority should have been required with a higher level than 51% to make such an important and far reaching change, especially given the motivation of a reasonable chunk of leave voters (more than the 2% difference in the result I would wager). This isn't uncommon in important decision making processes. But the prat Cameron was so sure he'd win that he didn't think of anything like this.
The irony is governments can still hold a large majority with around 40% of the vote. Democracy indeed.
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 05:04 - Dec 13 with 1972 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 23:14 - Dec 12 by QPR_John
"We're being asked to accept a vote won by 1% a couple of years ago as binding for the rest of time and are told this is democracy"
You make a valid point but it can also be used to ask for a third referendum by leavers should remain win the second. The only way is to state before any vote that the winning side needs a certain percentage. This was not done prior to the first referendum and you cannot change the rules after the event. Cameron was so sure of victory he did not think of the possiblilty of losing even by a narrow majority. If the rule had been put before the first referendum that at least there had to be a 60% vote to change the status quo then I would have accepted a 52 48 split to leave meant we would stay
And so would the vast majority of the population.We would’ve got our point across to the government and the EU that changes needed to be made to the way it was being run. Maybe that should be added if there is another vote.To overturn the original one and stay,they need to get a larger majority,or we just go best of 3 if the remainers win this one.
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 07:17 - Dec 13 with 1898 views
I am enjoying that fcking wnkr Jacob Rees Mogg (recently brilliantly described as looking like a haunted Oxfam shop) doing the rounds last night saying that even though May has won this vote she should go to the Queen and resign anyway.
48-52 vote. Binding. Will of the people. Must be obeyed to the absolute nth degree.
200-117. Load of bolox. Dreadful result for the winner. Must resign.
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 08:56 - Dec 13 with 1797 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 18:17 - Dec 12 by loftboy
Take out decent annual travel insurance, doesn’t cost much, visitors coming here can do the same and it’s less burden for the NHS to cover.
That is excellent advice, really it is, and I do that and would suggest others do that too, but reciprocal health cover hugely simplifies the process, when you need it most, saving time and inconvenience.
In a scenario where you have a very serious health problem which requires urgent attention, in other words, a hospital visit, you rock up at A&E, they see you, and if - as in my case - you need in-patient treatment, in you go, straightaway. No anxious and potentially dangerous waiting while you try to contact the right person at your insurer and debate what they will cover.
Go to hospital, assessment on that visit, single page form, €25 charge, in. For five days in-patient care. That simple. That is my experience with the EHIC card. No other charges, no questions asked. It's impossible to get better treatment using just travel insurance.
RFA
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 09:22 - Dec 13 with 1752 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 23:26 - Dec 12 by QPR_Jim
Yeah, so David Davis couldn't even take control of the job he was given (Brexit Secretary) let along take back control from the EU. Says all you need to know about the relationship between what these politicians (Davis, Johnson, Give, Rees Mogg) think and reality.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 23:29]
Ministers work at the behest of the Prime Minister. If a minister feels undermined his or her only option is to resign. Davis's only fault was that he did not resign sooner. Remember Raab resign as well. To lose one Brexit minister may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.
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The Tories Are Bonkers! on 09:49 - Dec 13 with 1712 views
The Tories Are Bonkers! on 09:22 - Dec 13 by QPR_John
Ministers work at the behest of the Prime Minister. If a minister feels undermined his or her only option is to resign. Davis's only fault was that he did not resign sooner. Remember Raab resign as well. To lose one Brexit minister may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.
Alternatively as someone cleverer than me said it is a lot easier to be outside the tent calling for more unicorns than it is to be in the actual business of unicorn farming.
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