| The Old guard (part 2) 09:47 - Mar 13 with 3118 views | PhilmyRs |
Getting rid of the old guard.
I posted recently about whether it would be the right move to shift the old guard in search of wins, most said it wasn’t and we should stick with them. I confess I never once contemplated dropping Adel and even went so far as to say for the gamble of winning games I’d probably put Hill on the bench. With the exception of Clint whose played well in the last 2 games, Jamie Mackie hasn’t featured much and Adel and Derry haven’t featured at all. In that time we’ve got back to back wins for the first time since we’ve been back in the premiership.
So by dropping Jamie Mackie and Derry from the first team are we now a better side? There’s no doubt in my mind that Hoillet and Townsend posed more questions of the opposition than Jamie Mac would have done. I’ve been critical of Mbia and Park as centre midfielders but on Saturday they played well, Mbia particularly took me by surprise. If Derry had played would we have looked so dangerous? I’ve always been a fan of Mackie from the bench due to his enthusiasm and workrate, I felt he was the perfect sub on Saturday, buzzing around annoying the opposition. Is this where he should be used till the end of the season?
What about Bosingwa? One of the new arrivals that seemed to sum up everything that’s wrong with the club. Since coming back in to contention in place of arguably more deserving/hardworking players (Onouha) he has definitely added value and contributed to our upturn in results. On Saturday I thought he was superb.
I won’t do the Adel analysis, there’s already been a thread on it, but 2 wins without him makes you wonder if it suits us more not having him the side? Personally I would always have Adel in my team, but in the right formation and not expect everything to go through him. Just give him a position and define his role.
Clint Hill however has proved that the old guard does still have a role to play, he was exceptional against Southampton and steady enough against Sunderland. But with only one surviving face from the promotion year still in the side, and the return of the hated new boys Bosingwa and Park, was Harry right to ditch the majority of the old guard? Or do they still have a key role to play?
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| The Old guard (part 2) on 09:55 - Mar 13 with 3086 views | daveB |
We've beaten two very poor sides and at times were over run in those games and could have lost them both so I wouldn't write the old guard or anyone who didn't play on Saturday off just yet. They'll all be needed |  | | |
| The Old guard (part 2) on 10:10 - Mar 13 with 3053 views | themodfather |
| The Old guard (part 2) on 09:55 - Mar 13 by daveB |
We've beaten two very poor sides and at times were over run in those games and could have lost them both so I wouldn't write the old guard or anyone who didn't play on Saturday off just yet. They'll all be needed |
clint hill has been excellent...yes he got run ragged a few times but with anton next to you??
as soon as derry plays, we look balanced, get a few tackles in
diakite looks a liability and m'bia is always off balance, falling over.
mackie would be excellent in the championship, his work rate saves him but he's no main striker, so when played there tries but of course cops the stick.
if adel is old guard, well...on his day he is special, influential but few times in the prem has he shined...more often tantrums and walk outs, MAVERICK !
but overall the old guard look like they WANT IT, mean it and show some effort. | | | |
| The Old guard (part 2) on 10:19 - Mar 13 with 3040 views | PhilmyRs |
| The Old guard (part 2) on 09:55 - Mar 13 by daveB |
We've beaten two very poor sides and at times were over run in those games and could have lost them both so I wouldn't write the old guard or anyone who didn't play on Saturday off just yet. They'll all be needed |
Always the voice of reason Dave and I agree that they’ll have a role to play in the run in. But ignoring Adel, do you think if Derry and Mackie had both started against Southampton and Sunderland, arguably at the expense of Townsend or Hoillet plus one other, the results would have been the same? Particularly against the weaker sides I feel we need players on the pitch that can hurt the opposition, like Hoillet and Townsend did on Saturday. Every time the ball went out to them we looked threatening. Working hard and harrying isn’t always the best method when you come up against players that do similar things. On the flip side, against the big boys this tactic often unsettles them and can prove useful in my opinion. | | | |
| The Old guard (part 2) on 10:21 - Mar 13 with 3036 views | pomanjou |
IMO the major difference is we have changed style and setup. We have changed from 'what we have we hold' to 'we are going for it'. That doesnt require a major change defensively but it does require major change in the midfield and attack.
Last week Harry played 4 2 4 and there may well be a change to 4 4 2 at Villa.
Derry was looking very heavy legged and slow reacting. Mackie can play a specific role but is nowhere near a regular starter in the Prem. Supersub is his best role.
Harry is getting far more out of the players and that coupled with the excellent Janaury signings and change of style and sep up means we are far more potent.
Boswinga is a very talented player and his attitude has changed. Full marks Harry for taking the pragmatic view.
Harry was right to ditch Derry and Mackie because better alternatives are available. Hill is playing out of his skin but how long for I dont know.
The old guard (x Hill) may have peripheral roles to play to no more than that. |  |
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| The Old guard (part 2) on 11:16 - Mar 13 with 2995 views | Pey |
We are at a stage of the season where team principles and togetherness are equal or more of importance to our fight for survival.
Speaking in terms of old guard and new players won't help our case right now.
At this point we need all the players to cheer, support the starters in the team and challenge them on the training pitch to keep them sharp as knives and in thought of our cause.
That does apply to players serving us long time now or players who arrived this season.
Hill is a shining example of a player who gives everything on the pitch.
Anyone noticed that he was our most forward player at that free kick which led up to the Sunderland goal ?
He rushed back like a mad man and was able to throw his body in to block the shot from Johnson unfortunate without success.
At that moment Samba only reached the edge of the box.
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| The Old guard (part 2) on 11:24 - Mar 13 with 2977 views | londonscottish |
| The Old guard (part 2) on 11:16 - Mar 13 by Pey |
We are at a stage of the season where team principles and togetherness are equal or more of importance to our fight for survival.
Speaking in terms of old guard and new players won't help our case right now.
At this point we need all the players to cheer, support the starters in the team and challenge them on the training pitch to keep them sharp as knives and in thought of our cause.
That does apply to players serving us long time now or players who arrived this season.
Hill is a shining example of a player who gives everything on the pitch.
Anyone noticed that he was our most forward player at that free kick which led up to the Sunderland goal ?
He rushed back like a mad man and was able to throw his body in to block the shot from Johnson unfortunate without success.
At that moment Samba only reached the edge of the box.
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I didn't notice that Hill was so far forward but what I DID notice was that he had a good 30yds on Samba on the way back.
Every time Samba went up for a free kick/corner from that point on I was getting a bit nervous.
He did get back a lot quicker, though...... |  |
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| The Old guard (part 2) on 11:51 - Mar 13 with 2951 views | Tonto |
To me the biggest difference between the old guard and the newer players is attitude.
The new players all have more ability than the old, but they don't seem as up for it as the old guard and thus that extra ability is only seen in fleeting glimpses - especially so under Hughes.
A fully functioning SWP should be miles better than a fully functioning Jamie mackie for example. But SWP hasn't been fully functioning, so Mackie has been the better player to have in the team.
What 'Arry has done better than Hughes is bring the new (better) players) performance levels up - actually havign them interested in the game, so for me its no surprise that Derry and mackie have, finally been removed from the starting XI and maybe even the squad (in Derry's case). although interestingly no one has been able to usurp Hill as yet.
I still see the old guard having a role to play - suspensions, injuries etc. but most of them are no longer in my (or 'Arry's) first XI. i thought that having gone 2-1 up makcie was the perfect sub to bring on - full of energy and will chase every paper bag. but if we are 2-1 down, I would rather bring on Adel or SWP to try and unlock something. |  |
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| The Old guard (part 2) on 12:55 - Mar 13 with 2887 views | daveB |
| The Old guard (part 2) on 10:10 - Mar 13 by themodfather |
clint hill has been excellent...yes he got run ragged a few times but with anton next to you??
as soon as derry plays, we look balanced, get a few tackles in
diakite looks a liability and m'bia is always off balance, falling over.
mackie would be excellent in the championship, his work rate saves him but he's no main striker, so when played there tries but of course cops the stick.
if adel is old guard, well...on his day he is special, influential but few times in the prem has he shined...more often tantrums and walk outs, MAVERICK !
but overall the old guard look like they WANT IT, mean it and show some effort. |
Bit of a myth about him throwing tantrums and walking out since promotion, at Fulham last year Warnock told him he could go home at half time so he did then when the players complianed about it Warnock denied all knowledge and left Taarabt hung out to dry | | | |
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| The Old guard (part 2) on 12:57 - Mar 13 with 2882 views | daveB |
| The Old guard (part 2) on 10:19 - Mar 13 by PhilmyRs |
Always the voice of reason Dave and I agree that they’ll have a role to play in the run in. But ignoring Adel, do you think if Derry and Mackie had both started against Southampton and Sunderland, arguably at the expense of Townsend or Hoillet plus one other, the results would have been the same? Particularly against the weaker sides I feel we need players on the pitch that can hurt the opposition, like Hoillet and Townsend did on Saturday. Every time the ball went out to them we looked threatening. Working hard and harrying isn’t always the best method when you come up against players that do similar things. On the flip side, against the big boys this tactic often unsettles them and can prove useful in my opinion. |
The team he picked was fine for that game and did the job, no compliants from me I just expect at some stage we'll have games where Derry, Mackie and Taarabt will be needed again | | | |
| The Old guard (part 2) on 13:30 - Mar 13 with 2817 views | ingeminate |
| The Old guard (part 2) on 11:51 - Mar 13 by Tonto |
To me the biggest difference between the old guard and the newer players is attitude.
The new players all have more ability than the old, but they don't seem as up for it as the old guard and thus that extra ability is only seen in fleeting glimpses - especially so under Hughes.
A fully functioning SWP should be miles better than a fully functioning Jamie mackie for example. But SWP hasn't been fully functioning, so Mackie has been the better player to have in the team.
What 'Arry has done better than Hughes is bring the new (better) players) performance levels up - actually havign them interested in the game, so for me its no surprise that Derry and mackie have, finally been removed from the starting XI and maybe even the squad (in Derry's case). although interestingly no one has been able to usurp Hill as yet.
I still see the old guard having a role to play - suspensions, injuries etc. but most of them are no longer in my (or 'Arry's) first XI. i thought that having gone 2-1 up makcie was the perfect sub to bring on - full of energy and will chase every paper bag. but if we are 2-1 down, I would rather bring on Adel or SWP to try and unlock something. |
Top post, bang on. If we can get the new lot playing to potential then ultimately there is more quality there - exception being Adel. |  |
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| The Old guard (part 2) on 13:53 - Mar 13 with 2790 views | TacticalR |
| The Old guard (part 2) on 12:57 - Mar 13 by daveB |
The team he picked was fine for that game and did the job, no compliants from me I just expect at some stage we'll have games where Derry, Mackie and Taarabt will be needed again |
Agreed. |  |
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