| Stoke City fans forum 15:34 - Feb 13 with 9409 views | Doudou87 |
Just had a little nosey to see the general mood/expectations ahead of Wednesdays trip. Its like reading our threads at the tail end of GA's reign. Tired and negative comments, sounds as if things don't go their way early doors they could turn on their own players, a lot seem to be relying heavily on the atmosphere to influence the result. A bright start from the R's and I believe we can come away with an empathic win! Come on you RRRRRRR's!
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| Stoke City fans forum on 22:49 - Feb 13 with 2634 views | highleverhoopL |
| Stoke City fans forum on 18:58 - Feb 13 by FDC |
I'm sure we've had this discussion on here before, but:
What is it that makes it possible for a team to have a persisting characteristic, such as being the charity case for opposition on bad runs; shitting the bed at earliest possibility in a cup competition etc, over periods of time where the playing staff and most the off field staff have completely changed? It genuinely intrigues me! [Post edited 13 Feb 19:00]
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A culture that develops in the club and gets passed along? Although personnel change they overlap - there is never a mass clearout of everybody at once. Think clothes moths. You'd have to close the club down and fumigate it | | | |
| Stoke City fans forum on 23:00 - Feb 13 with 2571 views | kensalriser |
| Stoke City fans forum on 21:37 - Feb 13 by daveB |
It's a bit like Huddersfield 2 weeks ago, a lot of hype about it being do or die etc
Stoke are in terrible form but they have some good players and this is a really tough game for us imo, I'd rather have played them at the weekend than after that Blackburn thumping
It's a big game but they are all big for us now, season won't be over whatever happens tomorrow, will be absolute doom and gloom on here if we don't win but I have faith that they will keep fighting till the end of the season and lots tough games ahead |
A draw would be ok as long as Huddersfield and Millwall don't win. |  |
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| Stoke City fans forum on 23:20 - Feb 13 with 2491 views | E17hoop |
| Stoke City fans forum on 22:49 - Feb 13 by highleverhoopL |
A culture that develops in the club and gets passed along? Although personnel change they overlap - there is never a mass clearout of everybody at once. Think clothes moths. You'd have to close the club down and fumigate it |
The 5 monkeys experiment is used to describe this in an organisational context.
A researcher puts five monkeys in a cage. There’s a bunch of bananas hanging from a string, with a ladder leading to the bananas. When the first monkey goes for the bananas, the researcher sprays all five monkeys with freezing water for five minutes. Sometime later, when a second monkey inevitably tries to go for the bananas, the researcher once again sprays all five monkeys with the cold water for five minutes. The researcher then puts the hose away and never touches it again. But, when a third monkey tries to go for the bananas, the other four attack him to prevent him from climbing that ladder. They are afraid of the punishment that may come.
Then, the researcher replaced one of the monkeys with a new monkey who wasn’t part of the original experiment and was never sprayed with water. And as soon as he touches the ladder to go for the bananas, the other four monkeys attack him to keep him from doing so. If he tries again, they attack him again. Thus, the new monkey learns not to go after the bananas because he’ll get attacked if he does.
The researcher replaces a second monkey with another new monkey. When this monkey goes for the bananas, the other four attack him, including the new monkey never sprayed with water. The researcher then continues to replace all the monkeys one at a time until all five original monkeys are removed from the cage. Each time the newcomer goes for the bananas, the others attack, even when they, as new monkeys, have never received punishment for going after the bananas. And thus, the new monkeys, who have never been sprayed with cold water, learn not to go after the temptation of the bananas.
It's the same with football teams; there's a critical mass of players who 'know' if they are too attacking they'll be punished on the counter so they stop attacking. They 'know' if they try and push too hard they'll get caught so employ the safe lateral and backwards pass - c.f. QPR last season. As new players join they learn the culture is not to attack and settle into the behaviours and ways of the others. They don't want to be ostracised so end up joining the majority.
Marti C has broken that here by stressing what he wants for some weeks and constantly explaining what good is, not what's bad. When he then brings in 4 players in a short time he can inform them what he wants and they form a critical mass to sway the decisions people in the team make. |  |
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| Stoke City fans forum on 00:17 - Feb 14 with 2390 views | wortonr |
| Stoke City fans forum on 23:20 - Feb 13 by E17hoop |
The 5 monkeys experiment is used to describe this in an organisational context.
A researcher puts five monkeys in a cage. There’s a bunch of bananas hanging from a string, with a ladder leading to the bananas. When the first monkey goes for the bananas, the researcher sprays all five monkeys with freezing water for five minutes. Sometime later, when a second monkey inevitably tries to go for the bananas, the researcher once again sprays all five monkeys with the cold water for five minutes. The researcher then puts the hose away and never touches it again. But, when a third monkey tries to go for the bananas, the other four attack him to prevent him from climbing that ladder. They are afraid of the punishment that may come.
Then, the researcher replaced one of the monkeys with a new monkey who wasn’t part of the original experiment and was never sprayed with water. And as soon as he touches the ladder to go for the bananas, the other four monkeys attack him to keep him from doing so. If he tries again, they attack him again. Thus, the new monkey learns not to go after the bananas because he’ll get attacked if he does.
The researcher replaces a second monkey with another new monkey. When this monkey goes for the bananas, the other four attack him, including the new monkey never sprayed with water. The researcher then continues to replace all the monkeys one at a time until all five original monkeys are removed from the cage. Each time the newcomer goes for the bananas, the others attack, even when they, as new monkeys, have never received punishment for going after the bananas. And thus, the new monkeys, who have never been sprayed with cold water, learn not to go after the temptation of the bananas.
It's the same with football teams; there's a critical mass of players who 'know' if they are too attacking they'll be punished on the counter so they stop attacking. They 'know' if they try and push too hard they'll get caught so employ the safe lateral and backwards pass - c.f. QPR last season. As new players join they learn the culture is not to attack and settle into the behaviours and ways of the others. They don't want to be ostracised so end up joining the majority.
Marti C has broken that here by stressing what he wants for some weeks and constantly explaining what good is, not what's bad. When he then brings in 4 players in a short time he can inform them what he wants and they form a critical mass to sway the decisions people in the team make. |
Interesting analogy, but as I remember it there were only 4 monkees. I’ll get my coat. | | | |
| Stoke City fans forum on 00:21 - Feb 14 with 2381 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Stoke City fans forum on 00:17 - Feb 14 by wortonr |
Interesting analogy, but as I remember it there were only 4 monkees. I’ll get my coat. |
You may be right. I'm a believer, anyway. | | | |
| Stoke City fans forum on 00:34 - Feb 14 with 2363 views | Hooping_Mad |
| Stoke City fans forum on 23:20 - Feb 13 by E17hoop |
The 5 monkeys experiment is used to describe this in an organisational context.
A researcher puts five monkeys in a cage. There’s a bunch of bananas hanging from a string, with a ladder leading to the bananas. When the first monkey goes for the bananas, the researcher sprays all five monkeys with freezing water for five minutes. Sometime later, when a second monkey inevitably tries to go for the bananas, the researcher once again sprays all five monkeys with the cold water for five minutes. The researcher then puts the hose away and never touches it again. But, when a third monkey tries to go for the bananas, the other four attack him to prevent him from climbing that ladder. They are afraid of the punishment that may come.
Then, the researcher replaced one of the monkeys with a new monkey who wasn’t part of the original experiment and was never sprayed with water. And as soon as he touches the ladder to go for the bananas, the other four monkeys attack him to keep him from doing so. If he tries again, they attack him again. Thus, the new monkey learns not to go after the bananas because he’ll get attacked if he does.
The researcher replaces a second monkey with another new monkey. When this monkey goes for the bananas, the other four attack him, including the new monkey never sprayed with water. The researcher then continues to replace all the monkeys one at a time until all five original monkeys are removed from the cage. Each time the newcomer goes for the bananas, the others attack, even when they, as new monkeys, have never received punishment for going after the bananas. And thus, the new monkeys, who have never been sprayed with cold water, learn not to go after the temptation of the bananas.
It's the same with football teams; there's a critical mass of players who 'know' if they are too attacking they'll be punished on the counter so they stop attacking. They 'know' if they try and push too hard they'll get caught so employ the safe lateral and backwards pass - c.f. QPR last season. As new players join they learn the culture is not to attack and settle into the behaviours and ways of the others. They don't want to be ostracised so end up joining the majority.
Marti C has broken that here by stressing what he wants for some weeks and constantly explaining what good is, not what's bad. When he then brings in 4 players in a short time he can inform them what he wants and they form a critical mass to sway the decisions people in the team make. |
What happened to the bananas? | |
| Chairman of the Junior Hoilett appreciation society |
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| Stoke City fans forum on 07:37 - Feb 14 with 2136 views | joe90 |
This has become a ‘must win’ in the way that doesn’t bode well for us. Bloody typical that Dozzell scores a crucial goal for a relegation rival as well.
A draw won’t do tonight, we have to win!!!!! |  | | |
| Stoke City fans forum on 07:53 - Feb 14 with 2091 views | nix |
| Stoke City fans forum on 21:37 - Feb 13 by daveB |
It's a bit like Huddersfield 2 weeks ago, a lot of hype about it being do or die etc
Stoke are in terrible form but they have some good players and this is a really tough game for us imo, I'd rather have played them at the weekend than after that Blackburn thumping
It's a big game but they are all big for us now, season won't be over whatever happens tomorrow, will be absolute doom and gloom on here if we don't win but I have faith that they will keep fighting till the end of the season and lots tough games ahead |
I think you’re right Dave and that’s what Martí is saying too. It’s not all over if we don’t win tonight. Who’d have thought Bristol City would beat Southampton last night? It’s important and it would be a massive boost but not essential yet. Unfortunately it will be a cup final for them and we know how often teams break their hoodoo against us. |  | | |
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| Stoke City fans forum on 08:13 - Feb 14 with 2047 views | ngbqpr |
| Stoke City fans forum on 19:46 - Feb 13 by kensalriser |
Six points required from these three games, any less and my inflating happy clapperdom is going to go pop. |
5 at a push...as that would mean 7 unbeaten...? |  |
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| Stoke City fans forum on 08:27 - Feb 14 with 2004 views | ngbqpr |
| Stoke City fans forum on 18:58 - Feb 13 by FDC |
I'm sure we've had this discussion on here before, but:
What is it that makes it possible for a team to have a persisting characteristic, such as being the charity case for opposition on bad runs; shitting the bed at earliest possibility in a cup competition etc, over periods of time where the playing staff and most the off field staff have completely changed? It genuinely intrigues me! [Post edited 13 Feb 19:00]
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I think E17's 5 monkeys theory works over, maybe, a 2-3 season period (such as we've just endured) where the personnel only changes gradually.
However, in my humble opinion, all the other stuff about any clubs retaining certain characteristics that remain year on year, decade on decade, whoever the personnel - in our case, eg, no cup runs, teams on losing streaks beating us, John Jensen / Lloyd Doyley, not liking "a cold, wet Wednesday in Stoke" (er, oh dear), bogey teams, players who score against us throughout their career etc - it really is just coincidence. [Post edited 14 Feb 14:10]
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| Stoke City fans forum on 08:31 - Feb 14 with 1979 views | wombat |
| Stoke City fans forum on 08:27 - Feb 14 by ngbqpr |
I think E17's 5 monkeys theory works over, maybe, a 2-3 season period (such as we've just endured) where the personnel only changes gradually.
However, in my humble opinion, all the other stuff about any clubs retaining certain characteristics that remain year on year, decade on decade, whoever the personnel - in our case, eg, no cup runs, teams on losing streaks beating us, John Jensen / Lloyd Doyley, not liking "a cold, wet Wednesday in Stoke" (er, oh dear), bogey teams, players who score against us throughout their career etc - it really is just coincidence. [Post edited 14 Feb 14:10]
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come away with a draw and ill be happy tonight , would like to see us maybe make a few changes
symthe for willock
dykes for sinclair |  |
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| Stoke City fans forum on 09:21 - Feb 14 with 1888 views | TheChef |
| Stoke City fans forum on 23:20 - Feb 13 by E17hoop |
The 5 monkeys experiment is used to describe this in an organisational context.
A researcher puts five monkeys in a cage. There’s a bunch of bananas hanging from a string, with a ladder leading to the bananas. When the first monkey goes for the bananas, the researcher sprays all five monkeys with freezing water for five minutes. Sometime later, when a second monkey inevitably tries to go for the bananas, the researcher once again sprays all five monkeys with the cold water for five minutes. The researcher then puts the hose away and never touches it again. But, when a third monkey tries to go for the bananas, the other four attack him to prevent him from climbing that ladder. They are afraid of the punishment that may come.
Then, the researcher replaced one of the monkeys with a new monkey who wasn’t part of the original experiment and was never sprayed with water. And as soon as he touches the ladder to go for the bananas, the other four monkeys attack him to keep him from doing so. If he tries again, they attack him again. Thus, the new monkey learns not to go after the bananas because he’ll get attacked if he does.
The researcher replaces a second monkey with another new monkey. When this monkey goes for the bananas, the other four attack him, including the new monkey never sprayed with water. The researcher then continues to replace all the monkeys one at a time until all five original monkeys are removed from the cage. Each time the newcomer goes for the bananas, the others attack, even when they, as new monkeys, have never received punishment for going after the bananas. And thus, the new monkeys, who have never been sprayed with cold water, learn not to go after the temptation of the bananas.
It's the same with football teams; there's a critical mass of players who 'know' if they are too attacking they'll be punished on the counter so they stop attacking. They 'know' if they try and push too hard they'll get caught so employ the safe lateral and backwards pass - c.f. QPR last season. As new players join they learn the culture is not to attack and settle into the behaviours and ways of the others. They don't want to be ostracised so end up joining the majority.
Marti C has broken that here by stressing what he wants for some weeks and constantly explaining what good is, not what's bad. When he then brings in 4 players in a short time he can inform them what he wants and they form a critical mass to sway the decisions people in the team make. |
Desperate times if we're now paying peanuts. |  |
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| Stoke City fans forum on 09:36 - Feb 14 with 1839 views | Spaceman_P |
you pay peanuts... you get monkey's |  | | |
| Stoke City fans forum on 09:37 - Feb 14 with 1838 views | GaryT |
| Stoke City fans forum on 18:53 - Feb 13 by DannyPaddox |
By Wednesday Stoke will have gone 112 days without a home win.
Lost 9 home games:
D L L D D D L L L
These stats make me nervous. |
Oh that's easy, clearly the next letter in the sequence is L
D. L L. D D D. L L L L. |  | | |
| Stoke City fans forum on 09:52 - Feb 14 with 1798 views | TheChef |
| Stoke City fans forum on 09:37 - Feb 14 by GaryT |
Oh that's easy, clearly the next letter in the sequence is L
D. L L. D D D. L L L L. |
You should be on Only Connect  | |
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| Stoke City fans forum on 10:11 - Feb 14 with 1755 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Stoke City fans forum on 18:43 - Feb 13 by Northernr |
Yeh we need wins. Wins plural. We've only 15 more chances to get those wins and that includes Leicester away. It's getting towards do or die time and in the Championship atm you couldn't really pick a more 'out of form' week than Stoke followed by Bristol City followed by Rotherham. |
We've actually played a lot of the better teams away already, but we still have to go to Hull, and Leicester as you say, and I keep looking at our last two games of the season. A rampant Leeds at home, and Cov away, who always get better as the season progresses and our record at that horrible place is not great. I'd be surprised if we get anything out of those two games, which means we only really have 13 games. Obviously, we can't and shouldn't, Redknapp-style, write them off, but they are extraordinarily tough. For some reason, I think we'll get a point at Leicester, mind, but tonight terrifies me. I'd accepted relegation, but every time you think you're out, they pull you back in. |  |
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| Stoke City fans forum on 10:14 - Feb 14 with 1746 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Stoke City fans forum on 18:58 - Feb 13 by FDC |
I'm sure we've had this discussion on here before, but:
What is it that makes it possible for a team to have a persisting characteristic, such as being the charity case for opposition on bad runs; shitting the bed at earliest possibility in a cup competition etc, over periods of time where the playing staff and most the off field staff have completely changed? It genuinely intrigues me! [Post edited 13 Feb 19:00]
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To be fair, there are loads of clubs that say the same as us about their team - they play better against the better teams than the poorer ones; always a charity case. We're not as unique as we think.
It's just that, in our case, it's all really true. | |
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| Stoke City fans forum on 10:44 - Feb 14 with 1664 views | E17hoop |
| Stoke City fans forum on 08:27 - Feb 14 by ngbqpr |
I think E17's 5 monkeys theory works over, maybe, a 2-3 season period (such as we've just endured) where the personnel only changes gradually.
However, in my humble opinion, all the other stuff about any clubs retaining certain characteristics that remain year on year, decade on decade, whoever the personnel - in our case, eg, no cup runs, teams on losing streaks beating us, John Jensen / Lloyd Doyley, not liking "a cold, wet Wednesday in Stoke" (er, oh dear), bogey teams, players who score against us throughout their career etc - it really is just coincidence. [Post edited 14 Feb 14:10]
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Agree - we have so many biases - proximity, pattern sensitivity, researcher, etc - that we WILL find patterns even when none exist.
Within the team improvement since Marti C joined there are other factors. In many cases this is simply because there is a core of people who are maintaining their approach. In our case, it was the senior management structure.
It might be easy to say that LF leaving, a new CEO etc have prompted the change in team fortunes and they are partly true. It wasn't that they made much difference but the status of them happening in themselves were enough to create the circumstances where a change from the team and organisation norms was allowed, encouraged and accepted. | |
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| Stoke City fans forum on 10:52 - Feb 14 with 1627 views | Hayesender |
Its gonna be a very nervous evening. Also watching on the TV seems to make me twice as nervous than if I was actually at the game |  |
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| Stoke City fans forum on 10:52 - Feb 14 with 1629 views | DannyPaddox |
| Stoke City fans forum on 00:34 - Feb 14 by Hooping_Mad |
What happened to the bananas? |
Eventually the bananas split. |  | | |
| Stoke City fans forum on 11:02 - Feb 14 with 1591 views | TheChef |
| Stoke City fans forum on 10:52 - Feb 14 by Hayesender |
Its gonna be a very nervous evening. Also watching on the TV seems to make me twice as nervous than if I was actually at the game |
Yeah I hate watching us on the telly - but inevitably I will do tonight. | |
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| Stoke City fans forum on 11:10 - Feb 14 with 1576 views | robith |
| Stoke City fans forum on 10:11 - Feb 14 by Antti_Heinola |
We've actually played a lot of the better teams away already, but we still have to go to Hull, and Leicester as you say, and I keep looking at our last two games of the season. A rampant Leeds at home, and Cov away, who always get better as the season progresses and our record at that horrible place is not great. I'd be surprised if we get anything out of those two games, which means we only really have 13 games. Obviously, we can't and shouldn't, Redknapp-style, write them off, but they are extraordinarily tough. For some reason, I think we'll get a point at Leicester, mind, but tonight terrifies me. I'd accepted relegation, but every time you think you're out, they pull you back in. |
I still maintain that we're not even in a relegation battle yet, we're one of the 3 that look doomed, but our occasional form flourishes and half the division completely tanking keeps leaving us just on the brink of being involved.
Actually nervous about tonight, which legit is a first time this season, mostly been resigned |  | | |
| Stoke City fans forum on 13:53 - Feb 14 with 1422 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Stoke City fans forum on 10:52 - Feb 14 by Hayesender |
Its gonna be a very nervous evening. Also watching on the TV seems to make me twice as nervous than if I was actually at the game |
i HATE watching us on the telly. At the ground it feels like you're contributing somehow, you shout and sing, talk to those around you. At home it's just helplessness. Can't bear it. | |
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| Stoke City fans forum on 14:00 - Feb 14 with 1392 views | Northernr |
| Stoke City fans forum on 13:53 - Feb 14 by Antti_Heinola |
i HATE watching us on the telly. At the ground it feels like you're contributing somehow, you shout and sing, talk to those around you. At home it's just helplessness. Can't bear it. |
Totally agree. I watched the Blackburn game on a stream in my hotel room and basically couldn't do the 10 mins of stoppage time, had to walk out and do something else. Unbearable. At the ground I've got Allen in front of me recommending pubs in Barrow. |  | | |
| Stoke City fans forum on 14:17 - Feb 14 with 1334 views | Hayesender |
| Stoke City fans forum on 14:00 - Feb 14 by Northernr |
Totally agree. I watched the Blackburn game on a stream in my hotel room and basically couldn't do the 10 mins of stoppage time, had to walk out and do something else. Unbearable. At the ground I've got Allen in front of me recommending pubs in Barrow. |
I was in my local club for that game. As soon as I saw 10 minutes injury time, I fcked off outside for a fag and paced up and down for what seemed an age | |
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