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For the love of god can this thread be closed. Like just about every other similar thread it has long run it's course and the same arguments go round & round with everyone trying to push their point and the other side, obviously, never yielding.
This meme from the previous page summed it up nicely.
Fair point, Juzzie. Certainly my last word on the subject, promise.
For the love of god can this thread be closed. Like just about every other similar thread it has long run it's course and the same arguments go round & round with everyone trying to push their point and the other side, obviously, never yielding.
This meme from the previous page summed it up nicely.
1 - In amongst some reprehensible bile, there's been some interesting points made and discussions had. As said in my preview, we're not getting out of this by entrenching deeper and deeper into our sides, so listening, discussing like this has value.
2 - As I said with the presidential election thread, it's not realistic to lock it is it? Something's going off tonight one way or the other, lock this thread before that and ten others spring up in its place.
3 - I'll delete abuse of people, I don't want to provide a platform for conspiracy theories, racism, bullying, abuse etc, but I'm not here to censor and delete discussion where I can help it, however profoundly depressing I may have found some of the stuff I've read over the past 15 pages.
1) Considering how many of the 1.86m will be of school age or retired, how many black crew members did Steve McQueen genuinely expect to find?
The point was that the number of black ("BAME" in the article I read) crew members wasn't anywhere near representative of the whole population (14%). Who knows what McQueen expected, but certainly what he found was a tiny fraction of that overall proportion. That's surely not too difficult to grasp.
2) If 'identifying themselves' in novels and works of fiction doesn't seem to have been a widespread issue for older generations of black people living in the UK, why the pressing need to add token characters to works of literature?
Wasn't 'an issue' for older generations of black people? On what basis do you make that sweeping generalisation? Have you talked to all of them? In any case, it stands to reason that as the UK has become more diverse there would be a growing hope and expectation that such diversity ought to be better represented in literature and popular culture generally.
3) How do you suggest the club increase the black support? Should we have a 'Bring a black mate' day at Loftus Road every now and then? Should we have cheaper tickets for Black people?
Big leap from someone making a factual observation that attendance at Loftus Road does not reflect the diversity of the London population (or the diversity on the pitch) to arguing for something as absurd as race-based price discrimination. The broader point is not that a certain racial group are more inclined to support top 5 sides - which I find highly dubious by the way - but that many from minority groups may still not feel entirely safe and comfortable going to football matches, often the result of perceptions formed from people's day-to-day lived experiences. No-one is suggesting there are any easy, glib solutions to this, but it is indicative of a wider issue that this "Britain is not a racist country" trope seeks to sweep under the carpet.
Some counter arguments:
1) Being an actor requires little training - hence McQueen found what he needed - but to operate the machinery and to have the photographic capability to direct needs the education, know-how and experience. It is a very niche area and McQueen should not expect to find significant numbers of non-white crew members.
2) I base this assumption with black friends - and extended family - with whom I have discussed a number of issues such as this to gage their opinion(s). They find this kind of stuff embarrassing - and few were loudly protesting about this before the last 5 years either suggesting it wasn't an issue many cared about - and put it in the same category as 'Rule Britannia' being dropped from the Proms (later rescinded, of course) as decisions made by Middle-class, white Liberals wrongly gaging what the Black community actually want/need.
3) If you live in London I'm surprised that you find any suggestion that black or the wider BAME community tend to support successful teams. Think about how many black people you know and their football allegiances and work out how many support anyone other than Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man City or Spurs. Also, think how many times you see members of those communities wearing any other football shirts/attire from those clubs.
It's a similar problem to what we're facing with the younger White generation too as we - a smallish club with no chance of success - compete against SKY and BT where you can watch thousands of games per year, staring the best players in The World for less than it costs an adult and child season ticket at Loftus Road.
Being a London club is also a hindrance to us because of how much else is on the 'doorstep' instead of QPR.
1 - In amongst some reprehensible bile, there's been some interesting points made and discussions had. As said in my preview, we're not getting out of this by entrenching deeper and deeper into our sides, so listening, discussing like this has value.
2 - As I said with the presidential election thread, it's not realistic to lock it is it? Something's going off tonight one way or the other, lock this thread before that and ten others spring up in its place.
3 - I'll delete abuse of people, I don't want to provide a platform for conspiracy theories, racism, bullying, abuse etc, but I'm not here to censor and delete discussion where I can help it, however profoundly depressing I may have found some of the stuff I've read over the past 15 pages.
Listening would be great if people were actually doing that. Straw man arguments and challenges about whether a block is one or two letters are facile and create a ton of noise that is both dull and sad to wade through.
People have every right to an opinion; what some fail to grasp is that rights are on an equal footing with responsibilities and it's not possible to have one without the other. Having a right to post comes with a responsibility to listen (not hear) and make a genuine attempt to understand. If people are unwilling to take on their responsibilities they're just shouting into a void and hearing echoes come back.
Steve McQueen, in a recent interview said he lived on the White City when very young and the first football match he ever went to was at Loftus Road, subsequently became quite an ardent Spurs fan (similar to Norman Jay who's also local, and Les Ferdinand I think)
So it maybe the case that when young lads of West Indian descent first came to Rangers it was a predominantly white team and they did'nt feel an immediate affinity with any of our players, and maybe they would have with Spurs as Garth Crooks was top scorer at the time, or it maybe like many who's old fella did'nt take them to football, they picked their team on FA Cup Final Day as it was the only live club football match at the time, so not sure its just down to supporting successful sides as if so it would be Liverpool and United.
To encourage local lads of all colours and shapes and sizes to come to Loftus Road, we need to treat all as equals (as we do), continue to develop the best young talent (as we are beginning to - well Ebere Eze) be entertaining (up to Huddersfield we are) and successful (let's hope)
That's a good point about feeling something about the players you see.
We probably had the same amount of Black players as Spurs in the early 1980s but, if we're being honest, Garth Crooks was definitely more watchable than Bob Hazzell!
I read an article recently which said youngsters are becoming fans of players now rather than teams because of media like the FIFA console games and the marketing the top players have so maybe this is something which, if it hasn't got worse, will.
Totally agree that a young and exciting team will attract more fans, but we shouldn't beat ourselves up - or allow suggestions that the fanbase or club are racist - if it doesn't attract a significant increase of black fans. Everyone's £ is the same.
Listening would be great if people were actually doing that. Straw man arguments and challenges about whether a block is one or two letters are facile and create a ton of noise that is both dull and sad to wade through.
People have every right to an opinion; what some fail to grasp is that rights are on an equal footing with responsibilities and it's not possible to have one without the other. Having a right to post comes with a responsibility to listen (not hear) and make a genuine attempt to understand. If people are unwilling to take on their responsibilities they're just shouting into a void and hearing echoes come back.
1) Being an actor requires little training - hence McQueen found what he needed - but to operate the machinery and to have the photographic capability to direct needs the education, know-how and experience. It is a very niche area and McQueen should not expect to find significant numbers of non-white crew members.
2) I base this assumption with black friends - and extended family - with whom I have discussed a number of issues such as this to gage their opinion(s). They find this kind of stuff embarrassing - and few were loudly protesting about this before the last 5 years either suggesting it wasn't an issue many cared about - and put it in the same category as 'Rule Britannia' being dropped from the Proms (later rescinded, of course) as decisions made by Middle-class, white Liberals wrongly gaging what the Black community actually want/need.
3) If you live in London I'm surprised that you find any suggestion that black or the wider BAME community tend to support successful teams. Think about how many black people you know and their football allegiances and work out how many support anyone other than Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man City or Spurs. Also, think how many times you see members of those communities wearing any other football shirts/attire from those clubs.
It's a similar problem to what we're facing with the younger White generation too as we - a smallish club with no chance of success - compete against SKY and BT where you can watch thousands of games per year, staring the best players in The World for less than it costs an adult and child season ticket at Loftus Road.
Being a London club is also a hindrance to us because of how much else is on the 'doorstep' instead of QPR.
1 - In amongst some reprehensible bile, there's been some interesting points made and discussions had. As said in my preview, we're not getting out of this by entrenching deeper and deeper into our sides, so listening, discussing like this has value.
2 - As I said with the presidential election thread, it's not realistic to lock it is it? Something's going off tonight one way or the other, lock this thread before that and ten others spring up in its place.
3 - I'll delete abuse of people, I don't want to provide a platform for conspiracy theories, racism, bullying, abuse etc, but I'm not here to censor and delete discussion where I can help it, however profoundly depressing I may have found some of the stuff I've read over the past 15 pages.
Genuinely sorry if I offended anyone the other evening.
Was having a bad day and this probably showed in a number of posts.
Am genuinely not a dickhead and hope to show this going forwards.
1) Being an actor requires little training - hence McQueen found what he needed - but to operate the machinery and to have the photographic capability to direct needs the education, know-how and experience. It is a very niche area and McQueen should not expect to find significant numbers of non-white crew members.
2) I base this assumption with black friends - and extended family - with whom I have discussed a number of issues such as this to gage their opinion(s). They find this kind of stuff embarrassing - and few were loudly protesting about this before the last 5 years either suggesting it wasn't an issue many cared about - and put it in the same category as 'Rule Britannia' being dropped from the Proms (later rescinded, of course) as decisions made by Middle-class, white Liberals wrongly gaging what the Black community actually want/need.
3) If you live in London I'm surprised that you find any suggestion that black or the wider BAME community tend to support successful teams. Think about how many black people you know and their football allegiances and work out how many support anyone other than Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man City or Spurs. Also, think how many times you see members of those communities wearing any other football shirts/attire from those clubs.
It's a similar problem to what we're facing with the younger White generation too as we - a smallish club with no chance of success - compete against SKY and BT where you can watch thousands of games per year, staring the best players in The World for less than it costs an adult and child season ticket at Loftus Road.
Being a London club is also a hindrance to us because of how much else is on the 'doorstep' instead of QPR.
[Post edited 8 Dec 2020 18:40]
Henning Wehn, (german comedian) had a very good show last year and made some really interesting points about his take on his now adopted homeland and fellow countrymen,
Said Racism is very often confused with Nepotism in the UK, and when you see so few ethnic minorities in certain roles and industries, reckoned it was down to the fact their parents had n't previously worked in these industries so could offer 'internships', jobs to their kids or friends kids etc,
The BBC was rife for Nepotism, as is in my personal experience the production side,
It shows how unbalanced our society is when a young black lad with the talent of Steve McQueen isn't the norm, but someone like Brooklyn Beckham, who has no talent, relevant experience or qualifications is rewarded with a photography contract with Burberry and.........trials at QPR.
Henning Wehn, (german comedian) had a very good show last year and made some really interesting points about his take on his now adopted homeland and fellow countrymen,
Said Racism is very often confused with Nepotism in the UK, and when you see so few ethnic minorities in certain roles and industries, reckoned it was down to the fact their parents had n't previously worked in these industries so could offer 'internships', jobs to their kids or friends kids etc,
The BBC was rife for Nepotism, as is in my personal experience the production side,
It shows how unbalanced our society is when a young black lad with the talent of Steve McQueen isn't the norm, but someone like Brooklyn Beckham, who has no talent, relevant experience or qualifications is rewarded with a photography contract with Burberry and.........trials at QPR.
I completely agree with a lot of your post.
Nepotism is rampant in the UK with Brooklyn Beckham's platform for what can only be described as 'amateurish at best' photography being awarded a significant profile platform being a great example.
Where I would disagree, however, is that although some companies may offer internships and lower entry roles as favours, few of those without any ability will rise from those positions. I'm not condoning the practice - which clearly could cause more able persons miss out on opportunities - but most successful companies are run on a meritocracy with those at the top normally the right person for the role or at least with the ability to hold such a vital position.
I would also add that, at least in terms of the Arts, there probably hasn't been a better time to be a Black or BAME artist. Galleries have spent the last year falling over each other to promote black artists even if there are genuine criticisms of their ability. In theatre there has been over the last 2 years + an obvious trend to colour-bind cast roles to the extent that an actor of Nigerian descent played 'The Gentleman caller' in Williams' 'The Glass Menagerie' despite the plot - and dialogue - resting entirely on him being Irish and white.
A leaflet is being given to all fans attending tonight's match by Millwall FC. The second last sentence reads : "The eyes of the world are on this football club tonight - your club - and they want us to fail".
A leaflet is being given to all fans attending tonight's match by Millwall FC. The second last sentence reads : "The eyes of the world are on this football club tonight - your club - and they want us to fail".
Really?
I'd agree with those sentiments to be honest.
The former Millwall chairman, Reg Burr, once said that Millwall were a convenient coat peg for society to hang their ills upon and the Media will be hoping for another story to run with.
No paper or media outlet wants to really write 'Millwall fans behaved' tomorrow as it generates less clicks.
As someone else has said, no one is calling you delusional, no one is calling you racist, and to be honest if you are saying that taking the kneel is pointless, I probably agree with you.
My confusion (as a Marxist myself) is why it’s being used as a slur.
You don’t have to spend a month reading Capital, just look at Wikipedia or pay the MML site a visit to see why it’s nonsense and makes you difficult to be taken seriously.
In my opinion, that is a rather optimistic timetable for reading Capital. It took a group of us a year to get through Volume 1.
So, Millwall take a knee on Saturday, Millwall fans boo, Millwall don't take a knee tonight, Millwall fans applaud, Sky applaud Millwall fans for dumping their racism.
What a load of nonsense from Sky.
Still, delighted we acted with dignity.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Your experience of how racist you think this country is doesn't diminish the fact that black people are NINE times more likely to be stopped and searched than white people
Did being white in Jamaica actually disadvantage you or was it just some hurtful names? Were you more likely to get stopped by police for example?
"But anyway, who gives a toss what people who actually live this stuff think" - I'm confused should I care about what you think or what the black players who want to take the knee think?
Do you think everyone who disagrees with you is middle class, a marxist or both?
I know I'm may be adding fuel to the fire that is this post but I'm trying to figure things out.
So what are you saying if you get called hurtful names that's not "real racism" not for a second am I condoning what Millwall did but thats all they did the other night. Thats all most so called "Fans" do when they shout racist things at players.
Its sh!t like this that makes it us vs them. This does not help anyone. Most people that get stopped do so because they hang around certain areas and drrss a certain way. People that are respectable fit a description but yes some are stopped just because of the colour of their skin but nowhere near the number that happens in America. The quicker people in the UK find this out the better
So, Millwall take a knee on Saturday, Millwall fans boo, Millwall don't take a knee tonight, Millwall fans applaud, Sky applaud Millwall fans for dumping their racism.
What a load of nonsense from Sky.
Still, delighted we acted with dignity.
The alternative view is that it proves that they don't have a problem with race equality movements such as Kick it Out (something which has never been subjected to booing at Millwall) and were actually being honest about it only being about BLM.
What this does is allow for an adult debate about the symbol which has, rightly or wrongly, become synonymous with the discredited political movement BLM and the desecration of War memorials and statues committed in their name.
Other fans will boo - that it certain - and clubs will be asking the PL and FL to come to an agreement about when the gesture will be discontinued to prevent acrimonious and divisive atmospheres at matches when they have more fans back.
So, Millwall take a knee on Saturday, Millwall fans boo, Millwall don't take a knee tonight, Millwall fans applaud, Sky applaud Millwall fans for dumping their racism.
What a load of nonsense from Sky.
Still, delighted we acted with dignity.
I thought the way it was done tonight felt far more sincere than talking a knee.
Taking the knee was right for the time when, in America they play the national anthem before every game and it was shocking to see. Us doing it means nothing, especially now.
But having a team huddle together with that sign just felt legitimate 🤷â€â™‚ï¸ and should anyone have bood that would have been racist.
I know I'm may be adding fuel to the fire that is this post but I'm trying to figure things out.
So what are you saying if you get called hurtful names that's not "real racism" not for a second am I condoning what Millwall did but thats all they did the other night. Thats all most so called "Fans" do when they shout racist things at players.
Its sh!t like this that makes it us vs them. This does not help anyone. Most people that get stopped do so because they hang around certain areas and drrss a certain way. People that are respectable fit a description but yes some are stopped just because of the colour of their skin but nowhere near the number that happens in America. The quicker people in the UK find this out the better
"So what are you saying if you get called hurtful names that's not "real racism"" - No I didn't say that and I don't know why you've put real racism in quote marks as I didn't say that. I was asking the question because I was interested in his experiences. I didn't get a chance to reply as my lunch break ended and by the time I'd finished work the thread had moved a long a lot but I found his response quite interesting.
But while you mention it I'm curious as to what features make someone look respectable?
"So what are you saying if you get called hurtful names that's not "real racism"" - No I didn't say that and I don't know why you've put real racism in quote marks as I didn't say that. I was asking the question because I was interested in his experiences. I didn't get a chance to reply as my lunch break ended and by the time I'd finished work the thread had moved a long a lot but I found his response quite interesting.
But while you mention it I'm curious as to what features make someone look respectable?
Yeah not a problem mate i apologies if that's not how you meant it.
To answer your question its simple, someone that looks like they're going to work and not looking like the typical 2020 gangster look.
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