| General Election Thread 17:46 - May 22 with 218723 views | loftboy |
This will be the first election that I have no idea who to vote for, will never vote Tory again after the lies during covid where my dad lost his life, don’t trust starmer, would never vote for a bunch of racists like reform , anyone give me a clue?
This post has been edited by an administrator |  |
| |  |
| General Election Thread on 17:17 - Jun 12 with 1785 views | Stainrod |
| General Election Thread on 16:05 - Jun 12 by HAYESBOY |
To re-join the Single Market it would mean having freedom of movement as well. This seems to be a red line for Brexiteers. I would also say you would need to be part of the Customs Union as well. Another red line.
Lib Dems can state they want to re-join the Single Market but they don't say the other parts out loud, because as you say, the predominantly right wing media would hound them and anyone else proposing re-joining. |
Yes although the irony is that six years on from Brexit immigration is at record levels and rising.
Even before Brexit just over 50% of our immigration came from outside the EU.
So yes the single market would come with freedom of movement but if any govt of whatever persuasion really wanted to cut down on immigration they could by ending all the other freedom of movement deals we have with the likes of Tunisia and many other countries. But the truth is with an ageing population, sickness levels through the roof and a major skills shortage any govt is going to allow immigration. So if you have immigration you might as well have it from Europe IMHO where the population tends to be better educated and the incomers have been proven to be a net positive to the economy. Plus you then obvs can get the benefit of the single market.
I agree with you about the customs union as well btw - but you can imagine what a field day the Mail etc would have if we rejoined that. I have no doubt that Brexit will eventually be reversed but it will probably have to be in stages and likely take decades. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 17:23 - Jun 12 with 1758 views | kensalriser |
| General Election Thread on 16:05 - Jun 12 by essextaxiboy |
Labour are not talking about it because their lead would disappear within days .
If they thought it would get support why not shout it from the rooftops? |
Brexit just isn't a factor in this election. The only game in town is getting rid of the Tories. That's it. Anything more is just window dressing. |  |
| |
| General Election Thread on 17:24 - Jun 12 with 1760 views | derbyhoop |
| General Election Thread on 16:05 - Jun 12 by HAYESBOY |
To re-join the Single Market it would mean having freedom of movement as well. This seems to be a red line for Brexiteers. I would also say you would need to be part of the Customs Union as well. Another red line.
Lib Dems can state they want to re-join the Single Market but they don't say the other parts out loud, because as you say, the predominantly right wing media would hound them and anyone else proposing re-joining. |
Brexit has been a failure and was a Tory encouraged policy. So they don't want to talk about it. Add that Johnson purged Tory remainers.
V all the RW media promotes Brexit so would slaughter any Labour suggestion of Rejoin.
Rejoin won't be an option until all.major parties want to do so. SM = return of FOM. Every chance UK would have to adopt Euro and join Schengen. |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
| |
| General Election Thread on 17:38 - Jun 12 with 1728 views | essextaxiboy |
| General Election Thread on 17:24 - Jun 12 by derbyhoop |
Brexit has been a failure and was a Tory encouraged policy. So they don't want to talk about it. Add that Johnson purged Tory remainers.
V all the RW media promotes Brexit so would slaughter any Labour suggestion of Rejoin.
Rejoin won't be an option until all.major parties want to do so. SM = return of FOM. Every chance UK would have to adopt Euro and join Schengen. |
Not wanting to re open old differences , but it’s far too early to call it a failure . it could have been so much better if the result had been accepted . Covid has muddied the waters further , 2030 is the earliest it could be assessed. iMO of course |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 17:45 - Jun 12 with 1718 views | Watford_Ranger |
It was crap, it is crap, it will always be crap but it’s a toxic issue because so much of the electorate are such massive snowflakes about it that they have to either pretend it’s not there or lie that it’s great/going to be great if you just do it the way we want. Labour are far better off not going near it rather than get those who still believe in there being some great Brexit success around the corner upset and flocking back to the party of comforting lies. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 17:49 - Jun 12 with 1703 views | Stainrod |
| General Election Thread on 17:23 - Jun 12 by kensalriser |
Brexit just isn't a factor in this election. The only game in town is getting rid of the Tories. That's it. Anything more is just window dressing. |
I want to get rid of the Tories as much as anyone but don't agree Brexit is "window dressing". This country has profound problems, Brexit being one of them, but also chronic productivity failures, lack of investment, massive regional imbalance, lack of a manufacturing base etc etc - yet none of these issues are being discussed at this election. The political parties are ignoring the shit-show that is the reality of Britain in 2024 and to varying degrees pretending its steady as she goes. I can see why Labour is going safety first - they are so far ahead they just want to avoid putting their foot in it - but they haven't prepared the country for what a terrible position the economy is in and that could come back to bite them soon after the election. One way or another any new govt is going to have to either increase tax or slash public spending. It won't be pretty. What really sucks for those of us who are very anti-Tory is that this is probably an incredibly good election for them to lose... | | | |
| General Election Thread on 18:03 - Jun 12 with 1672 views | essextaxiboy |
| General Election Thread on 17:45 - Jun 12 by Watford_Ranger |
It was crap, it is crap, it will always be crap but it’s a toxic issue because so much of the electorate are such massive snowflakes about it that they have to either pretend it’s not there or lie that it’s great/going to be great if you just do it the way we want. Labour are far better off not going near it rather than get those who still believe in there being some great Brexit success around the corner upset and flocking back to the party of comforting lies. |
Even if it is crap or turns out to be so it had to be done .
We were told by the freely elected government of the day that whatever the result was it would be enacted .
There were no caveats about the margin of the result , there were no iillegalities that made the vote null and void . Apart from lies on both sides (unavailability of Cancer drugs was a particular low) it was a free and fair vote . If the young people who’s “ future was stolen “ had voted instead of watching Tipping Point itmay have been different . A life lesson learnt .
The time a democratic vote is just ignored or reversed our democracy is compromised.. IMO | | | |
| General Election Thread on 18:14 - Jun 12 with 1652 views | Watford_Ranger |
| General Election Thread on 18:03 - Jun 12 by essextaxiboy |
Even if it is crap or turns out to be so it had to be done .
We were told by the freely elected government of the day that whatever the result was it would be enacted .
There were no caveats about the margin of the result , there were no iillegalities that made the vote null and void . Apart from lies on both sides (unavailability of Cancer drugs was a particular low) it was a free and fair vote . If the young people who’s “ future was stolen “ had voted instead of watching Tipping Point itmay have been different . A life lesson learnt .
The time a democratic vote is just ignored or reversed our democracy is compromised.. IMO |
No government is bound by a previous one but there’s little to no chance it’ll be overturned for many years because of the ridiculous overreaction there’d be as well as the practical difficulty of going back to what it was. It’s happened and we’ll have to make the best of it. Starmer is right to go nowhere near it at least for now. | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| General Election Thread on 18:59 - Jun 12 with 1587 views | dmm |
Sure but someone on £55k would pay an extra £5 per week. Hardly being taxed to death, is it? |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 20:20 - Jun 12 with 1487 views | HAYESBOY |
| General Election Thread on 17:17 - Jun 12 by Stainrod |
Yes although the irony is that six years on from Brexit immigration is at record levels and rising.
Even before Brexit just over 50% of our immigration came from outside the EU.
So yes the single market would come with freedom of movement but if any govt of whatever persuasion really wanted to cut down on immigration they could by ending all the other freedom of movement deals we have with the likes of Tunisia and many other countries. But the truth is with an ageing population, sickness levels through the roof and a major skills shortage any govt is going to allow immigration. So if you have immigration you might as well have it from Europe IMHO where the population tends to be better educated and the incomers have been proven to be a net positive to the economy. Plus you then obvs can get the benefit of the single market.
I agree with you about the customs union as well btw - but you can imagine what a field day the Mail etc would have if we rejoined that. I have no doubt that Brexit will eventually be reversed but it will probably have to be in stages and likely take decades. |
With you on everything there. I would add that freedom of movement is for EU citizens, it was falsely represented by Farage and his mob as letting anyone in to the country.
Also part being members of the EU, we were part of the Dublin agreement which meant you could send back failed asylum seekers to the country from which they travelled from. That country had to take them back under the agreement. Not now. |  |
| Smells like a trout farm in here |
| |
| General Election Thread on 20:35 - Jun 12 with 1466 views | hubble |
| General Election Thread on 17:49 - Jun 12 by Stainrod |
I want to get rid of the Tories as much as anyone but don't agree Brexit is "window dressing". This country has profound problems, Brexit being one of them, but also chronic productivity failures, lack of investment, massive regional imbalance, lack of a manufacturing base etc etc - yet none of these issues are being discussed at this election. The political parties are ignoring the shit-show that is the reality of Britain in 2024 and to varying degrees pretending its steady as she goes. I can see why Labour is going safety first - they are so far ahead they just want to avoid putting their foot in it - but they haven't prepared the country for what a terrible position the economy is in and that could come back to bite them soon after the election. One way or another any new govt is going to have to either increase tax or slash public spending. It won't be pretty. What really sucks for those of us who are very anti-Tory is that this is probably an incredibly good election for them to lose... |
What I find interesting about the various remainers' posts in this thread is how blinkered they appear to be when it comes to what's happening in Europe.
You all describe Britain in the most dire terms, as if a) that was entirely due to Brexit (of course it isn't), and b) as if European countries were faring so much better (they aren't).
Are you not aware of how Germany is faring economically? According to Theodor Weimer, the head of the Deutsche Börse, Germany is now little more than a “developing country” and its stock market is a “junk shop” selling old tat. There are several key factors in Germany's economic decline, their disastrous energy policy being a key one, but whichever way you cut it, things don't look good for the former European powerhouse. And if Germany is teetering, what does that mean for the rest of Europe? Is this the economic zone you'd like Britain to be tethered to?
It's no surprise that the toxic economic cocktail of decades of inflationary policies, endless borrowing and heavy reliance on immigration have made Europe's economy even more fragile than Britain's, and it's also no surprise that this has led to a massive rise in right-wing populism. If Macron is toppled by National Rally (RN) in the forthcoming elections in France, it could be be part of a tidal wave of political change in the Eurozone, which has already seen right wing parties elected in Italy and Holland recently.
How ironic would it be if the remainers got their wish and Britain rejoined a right wing Europe, that was in the process of rejecting the very things remainers long for?
The certainty that so many have regarding Europe is beginning to look more like idealistic wishful thinking. For my money, an independent Britain is better placed to ride out the forthcoming shockwaves in the global market than one tethered to a foundering Europe. However, if Labour get in with a landslide, they could mire us in the same situation, with the same blinkered ideologies, that seem to me to be akin to a dangerous kind of groupthink.
But I don't fear a massive majority Labour government just for those reasons, I fear that it is in hock to so many radical causes, from its blinkered adherence to the ludicrous idea of 'net zero', to its bizarre championing of trans rights over women's rights, to its cosying up to Islamism in an attempt to appeal to the muslim vote.
There is no doubt the so-called Tories have been an absolute nightmare for this country, but I don't count the Brexit vote as part of that. As others have stated in this thread, that was perhaps the only truly democratic thing that's happened in this country for a long time. I think an independent Britain governed sensibly is the best scenario we could hope for, but I see little likelihood of anyone sensible coming to power in the next election. |  |
| |
| General Election Thread on 21:02 - Jun 12 with 1400 views | Stainrod |
I was clear in my post just now that Britain has other huge problems, not just Brexit...
When you say Britain being "tethered" to Europe, joining the single markets simply means we can trade freely with it - you make it sound like we would be chained to a lead weight and thrown in the Channel to drown.
Yes the vote across some European countries (though far from all) was very worrying to anyone who believes in liberal democracy, whether Remainer or Brexiteer. But lets not exaggerate: the far right got 23% across the EU this time, last time it was 20%.
Let us not be smug in Britain either: "Reform" (what an ironic name) is increasingly popular and when one of their candidates said this week that we should have made peace with Hitler he was defended by an official Reform Party spokesman. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 21:06 - Jun 12 with 1379 views | Northernr |
Can we get to the bit where somebody in the Sky call centre has a look into his file and leaks that he was a subscriber all along? WITH MOVIES. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 21:11 - Jun 12 with 1359 views | Stainrod |
| General Election Thread on 21:06 - Jun 12 by Northernr |
Can we get to the bit where somebody in the Sky call centre has a look into his file and leaks that he was a subscriber all along? WITH MOVIES. |
Hilarious. Am loving some of the stuff on social media, including the crowd funding to get Rishi the Sky subscription he was so cruely denied... | | | |
| General Election Thread on 21:25 - Jun 12 with 1324 views | essextaxiboy |
| General Election Thread on 13:27 - Jun 12 by Northernr |
You could redirect police helicopters with the one we had in Grimsby, early 90s I guess. Thing was nearly as big as the house itself. Picture used to break up on a fairly regular basis which could be solved (in my dad's opinion) by taking the viewing card out and blowing on it. |
Well I am with your Dad on that , worked 9 out of 10 times .
Sometimes you had to clean the gold bit with a bit of aftershave . Aramis was best I recall | | | |
| General Election Thread on 21:30 - Jun 12 with 1306 views | essextaxiboy |
| General Election Thread on 21:02 - Jun 12 by Stainrod |
I was clear in my post just now that Britain has other huge problems, not just Brexit...
When you say Britain being "tethered" to Europe, joining the single markets simply means we can trade freely with it - you make it sound like we would be chained to a lead weight and thrown in the Channel to drown.
Yes the vote across some European countries (though far from all) was very worrying to anyone who believes in liberal democracy, whether Remainer or Brexiteer. But lets not exaggerate: the far right got 23% across the EU this time, last time it was 20%.
Let us not be smug in Britain either: "Reform" (what an ironic name) is increasingly popular and when one of their candidates said this week that we should have made peace with Hitler he was defended by an official Reform Party spokesman. |
They have some right fruitcakes.
Tice said before Farage took over that they basically wait for the media to out the worst ones | | | |
| General Election Thread on 22:21 - Jun 12 with 1230 views | QPR_John |
It seems Starmer did not think Labour would win the last election. But I suppose that is consistent as he did not believe in the manifesto as well. Seems he was economical with the truth in 2019 wonder what he is not telling us in 2024. [Post edited 12 Jun 22:22]
| | | |
| General Election Thread on 22:27 - Jun 12 with 1212 views | QPR_Jim |
| General Election Thread on 22:21 - Jun 12 by QPR_John |
It seems Starmer did not think Labour would win the last election. But I suppose that is consistent as he did not believe in the manifesto as well. Seems he was economical with the truth in 2019 wonder what he is not telling us in 2024. [Post edited 12 Jun 22:22]
|
I think he's trying not to tell the public exactly how large a hole the conservatives have put us in, to try and give the country some hope. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 02:17 - Jun 13 with 2064 views | SydneyRs |
| General Election Thread on 16:05 - Jun 12 by HAYESBOY |
To re-join the Single Market it would mean having freedom of movement as well. This seems to be a red line for Brexiteers. I would also say you would need to be part of the Customs Union as well. Another red line.
Lib Dems can state they want to re-join the Single Market but they don't say the other parts out loud, because as you say, the predominantly right wing media would hound them and anyone else proposing re-joining. |
8 years since the referendum.
I understand that many wanted to see an end to freedom of movement, but with an expectation that it would reduce immigration. This hasn't happened and more people than ever are coming in. Net gain, zero.
On the other hand loss of freedom of movement for British people is a great loss, especially for younger people that might want to live and work around Europe but also those who might retire overseas. Not to mention the increased hassle getting through customs when holidaying. I got an Irish passport due to my heritage and can also get them for my kids if they choose to spend time in Europe.
The UK has really shot itself in the foot here. The reduced immigration has not happened but all the EU benefits have been lost. However, we are still in the phase where "the 17.4 million" and screams about democracy will come from much of the media if anyone tries to touch it. So Labour won't as it might give the tories the only chance they have to gain ground. Also people are just tired of the subject.
I suspect it will be at least 5 more years before anything might change. By then one non binding vote will have determined an outcome for nearly 15 years. Bet the tories wish they could have been given that timeframe after winning the last GE. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 02:19 - Jun 13 with 2056 views | SydneyRs |
| General Election Thread on 16:05 - Jun 12 by essextaxiboy |
Labour are not talking about it because their lead would disappear within days .
If they thought it would get support why not shout it from the rooftops? |
The media. Who have currently given up on the tories but would see hope if this issue got touched. The tide is turning but they've decided not enough yet to risk it. If the media was more balanced I suspect it might be different. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 02:29 - Jun 13 with 2050 views | SydneyRs |
| General Election Thread on 17:17 - Jun 12 by Stainrod |
Yes although the irony is that six years on from Brexit immigration is at record levels and rising.
Even before Brexit just over 50% of our immigration came from outside the EU.
So yes the single market would come with freedom of movement but if any govt of whatever persuasion really wanted to cut down on immigration they could by ending all the other freedom of movement deals we have with the likes of Tunisia and many other countries. But the truth is with an ageing population, sickness levels through the roof and a major skills shortage any govt is going to allow immigration. So if you have immigration you might as well have it from Europe IMHO where the population tends to be better educated and the incomers have been proven to be a net positive to the economy. Plus you then obvs can get the benefit of the single market.
I agree with you about the customs union as well btw - but you can imagine what a field day the Mail etc would have if we rejoined that. I have no doubt that Brexit will eventually be reversed but it will probably have to be in stages and likely take decades. |
This is often overlooked. Govts are dependent on immigration for labour. This is as true in the US and Australia (where immigration numbers are also high) as in the UK.
Ageing populations plus declining birth rates in western countries are a problem and this has been known for a long time. If nothing is done you are left with a huge amount of the population over retirement age and a dwindling workforce/tax base funding pensions.
Something has to give if you want a functioning economy including retirement income for those who depend on it. Either its no/reduced pension (given the voting power of this group, not a real option), extortionate taxation to fund it on a resentful workforce or you bring people of working age in.
The chosen solution is to bring in workers from outside to fill the gap and at the same time keep labour costs low to make your economic management look better. So the dream of ending or significantly reducing immigration is just that, a dream.
One of the many reasons why brexit was such a massive con. The immigrants will still come, just from somewhere else and judging by the amount of anti Islamic sentiment I see, a lot who voted leave would actually prefer to see Europeans coming in. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 06:14 - Jun 13 with 1952 views | Lblock |
| General Election Thread on 02:29 - Jun 13 by SydneyRs |
This is often overlooked. Govts are dependent on immigration for labour. This is as true in the US and Australia (where immigration numbers are also high) as in the UK.
Ageing populations plus declining birth rates in western countries are a problem and this has been known for a long time. If nothing is done you are left with a huge amount of the population over retirement age and a dwindling workforce/tax base funding pensions.
Something has to give if you want a functioning economy including retirement income for those who depend on it. Either its no/reduced pension (given the voting power of this group, not a real option), extortionate taxation to fund it on a resentful workforce or you bring people of working age in.
The chosen solution is to bring in workers from outside to fill the gap and at the same time keep labour costs low to make your economic management look better. So the dream of ending or significantly reducing immigration is just that, a dream.
One of the many reasons why brexit was such a massive con. The immigrants will still come, just from somewhere else and judging by the amount of anti Islamic sentiment I see, a lot who voted leave would actually prefer to see Europeans coming in. |
Yes this has worked really well for Germany……..have a look at the decline in their economy and their society and a massive reason for it.
Immigration is certainly a good thing.
It needs to have strict rules and controls though. That’s what made Australia strong for years (although they let all sorts in now  )
The upshot is there’s no possible solution to this now as it’s uncontrollable in this country and across Europe due to many factors |  |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
| |
| General Election Thread on 07:32 - Jun 13 with 1840 views | essextaxiboy |
| General Election Thread on 02:17 - Jun 13 by SydneyRs |
8 years since the referendum.
I understand that many wanted to see an end to freedom of movement, but with an expectation that it would reduce immigration. This hasn't happened and more people than ever are coming in. Net gain, zero.
On the other hand loss of freedom of movement for British people is a great loss, especially for younger people that might want to live and work around Europe but also those who might retire overseas. Not to mention the increased hassle getting through customs when holidaying. I got an Irish passport due to my heritage and can also get them for my kids if they choose to spend time in Europe.
The UK has really shot itself in the foot here. The reduced immigration has not happened but all the EU benefits have been lost. However, we are still in the phase where "the 17.4 million" and screams about democracy will come from much of the media if anyone tries to touch it. So Labour won't as it might give the tories the only chance they have to gain ground. Also people are just tired of the subject.
I suspect it will be at least 5 more years before anything might change. By then one non binding vote will have determined an outcome for nearly 15 years. Bet the tories wish they could have been given that timeframe after winning the last GE. |
You miss the point on immigration , complete freedom of movement means that you cant plan health education or housing requirements . Its impossible because you just dont know the numbers.
You also cannot control the skills levels , you might get baristas when you need midwives , or bricklayers when you are crying out for electricians , its pot luck . Its really not about the numbers IMO .
As for border control , I have a seriously unwell relation in Spain , I visit Madrid regularly . I honestly have seen no difference at the border . I have a son living and working in Zurich .
Would you really want to live in a country where the Government give you a vote on something then ignores it because "they know better "? What if next time your vote is on the winning side ? | | | |
| General Election Thread on 07:42 - Jun 13 with 1816 views | dmm |
| General Election Thread on 07:32 - Jun 13 by essextaxiboy |
You miss the point on immigration , complete freedom of movement means that you cant plan health education or housing requirements . Its impossible because you just dont know the numbers.
You also cannot control the skills levels , you might get baristas when you need midwives , or bricklayers when you are crying out for electricians , its pot luck . Its really not about the numbers IMO .
As for border control , I have a seriously unwell relation in Spain , I visit Madrid regularly . I honestly have seen no difference at the border . I have a son living and working in Zurich .
Would you really want to live in a country where the Government give you a vote on something then ignores it because "they know better "? What if next time your vote is on the winning side ? |
Well, so far the Brexit removal of freedom of movement has not provided the controls you specify. What additional measures are you suggesting? | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
