| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? 23:08 - Feb 19 with 45184 views | GloryHunter |
I was 22 in 1975, and I voted "No". This was based on my political heroes Michael Foot and Tony Benn warning against the dangers of entering the EU. After that, I softened my opposition somewhat. I like the fact that I can now cross most European borders without being searched and showing my passport, and I have since acquired a German wife, who is free to live and work in the UK (although she is not allowed to vote here, despite having paid UK taxes for 25 years). But, to be honest, I am thinking of voting "Out". What do other posters on here think? |  | | |  |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 23:26 - Feb 21 with 2197 views | GloryHunter |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 22:45 - Feb 21 by HendonHoop |
What gets me, is talk over the past few years of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland having separate Parliaments/ Assemblies ect, but the Left seem to want English Regions. They seen to want to break England up because they simply hate anything that is English and its very un-PC to like England. Even Alex Salmond went to Carlisle to chat to locals during the Scottish Independence campaign. Why would he do that? its in England. I suppose he was trying to get them onside with a view to a Regional breakaway future split. The sooner we have an English Parliament the better. After all, like they say down at the Den. " No one likes us!!....We don't care!". |
Welsh and Scottish Devolution and English Regional Assemblies were Tony Blair's fumbled attempt at dealing with Northern Ireland. He knew he could never achieve a peaceful solution in Ulster, so he thought if he broke up the whole UK into incremental regions within the EU, then it would be someone else's problem. That's not "the Left" - that's Blair and Mandleson's New Labour. The real Left has always been Internationalist in outlook. | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 07:34 - Feb 22 with 2134 views | jonno |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 18:07 - Feb 21 by essextaxiboy |
Lots of chat about Boris wanting to go back to the EU if we vote out and getting a better deal then staging another vote . |
Yes, I think that may happen. In my view, Cameron's approach to the EU was totally wrong. Instead of saying to them "Look, I want us to remain in the EU, but you have to give me something I can sell to the UK electorate to persuade them to vote to stay", he should have been saying "I want out, so you'll need to give me something radically different to persuade me to change my mind before I put it to the UK electorate". If that wasn't forthcoming, walk away from the talks. |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 07:54 - Feb 22 with 2124 views | essextaxiboy |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 07:34 - Feb 22 by jonno |
Yes, I think that may happen. In my view, Cameron's approach to the EU was totally wrong. Instead of saying to them "Look, I want us to remain in the EU, but you have to give me something I can sell to the UK electorate to persuade them to vote to stay", he should have been saying "I want out, so you'll need to give me something radically different to persuade me to change my mind before I put it to the UK electorate". If that wasn't forthcoming, walk away from the talks. |
He has obviously never bought a used car . |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 08:08 - Feb 22 with 2122 views | CanadaRanger |
Just a quick point about EU Grants (for fast internet etc.)...
SCENARIO #1
- Someone in a government has a bright idea for a project that should be funded.
- They raise money from taxes to pay for the project
- They spend some of the money raised on taxation enforcement to make sure everyone pays their fair share
- They pay some of the money to themselves for their time
- they charge overhead to help pay for the cushy office and plush carpets in whatever overpriced city they work in
- They spend some of the money on advertising how great a job they have done
- They give some of the money towards the pay of their superiors
- (If distant) They employ local bureaucrats to put the project in place
- They pay for the project
End result, based on Canada's experience is that only 42% (42 cents of every dollar, 42 pence of every pound) raised in taxes actually funded the project.
SCENARIO #2
- You don't get taxed
- You pay for the project yourself
End result
- 100% of the money spent goes on the project
- A bunch of bureaucrats (e.g., in Brussels) are forced into other employment. |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 09:45 - Feb 22 with 2069 views | Juzzie |
I haven't read all the pages so sorry if this has already been covered but aren't we still allowed to trade with all other countries even if we opt out?
If this means I have to show a passport when crossing from France into Germany then fine by me. |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 11:08 - Feb 22 with 2023 views | HollowayRanger |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 15:27 - Feb 21 by Jigsore |
I don't think many people want Turkey to join the EU out of the kindness of their hearts, they just see a reltiavely young population of 75m as a solution to the Europe's increasingly lop-sided age demographic. That would be one solution to that, that's all. Not that it is very likely in the future with Erdogan's near dictatorship so i wouldn't worry |
From next October the EU has decided to allow 84 million Turks the freedom to travel to the EU (including the UK) without a visa. That is more then the UK population given the right to come here. If you are for "IN" you better be darn sure that is what you want and you think that will be better "security". |  |
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 11:28 - Feb 22 with 2008 views | Discodroids |
good to see Jude Law at Calais this morning... im always impressed by celebrities that can solve the problem of 7000 people living in a chemical toilet by raising their eyebrow like Roger Moore in Moonraker.
A real family man too. [Post edited 22 Feb 2016 11:34]
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| The Duke Of New York. A-Number One.
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 11:38 - Feb 22 with 1995 views | Tonto |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 09:45 - Feb 22 by Juzzie |
I haven't read all the pages so sorry if this has already been covered but aren't we still allowed to trade with all other countries even if we opt out?
If this means I have to show a passport when crossing from France into Germany then fine by me. |
Not without paying import taxes or negotiating a free trade agreement. Would the EU be willing to negotiate if we left? |  |
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 11:41 - Feb 22 with 1990 views | hoof_hearted |
From being 99% stay in I have wavered hugely over the last 3 days.
One of the unsung benefits of staying in is that the civil servants have an extra layer of bureaucracy to stop ministers from doing stupid things too easily. Less risk of lurching from left to right like the seventies and eighties.
The good thing about leaving is this whole security issue. But then if we cause the break up of the EU then the long term prospect of war starting in central/eastern Europe (again) is significant.
Stay in Europe, stay well out of the euro and Schengen. Cameron's deal might just work for lily livered liberals like me. |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 11:55 - Feb 22 with 1971 views | paulparker |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 11:28 - Feb 22 by Discodroids |
good to see Jude Law at Calais this morning... im always impressed by celebrities that can solve the problem of 7000 people living in a chemical toilet by raising their eyebrow like Roger Moore in Moonraker.
A real family man too. [Post edited 22 Feb 2016 11:34]
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Id quite happily take in a gang of Eastern European lads, im pretty sure Mrs P would be delighted as it may mean the garden fence could get painted
perhaps we could exchange those from the Jungle and we in return give them Jude Law,
Eddie Izaard,steve coogan, Stephen fry, emma Thompson, Richard Curtis , shappi khorsandi (comedian , yeah right) and some mush out of IT crowd
I actually think we would get the better deal |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:00 - Feb 22 with 1959 views | stevec |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 11:41 - Feb 22 by hoof_hearted |
From being 99% stay in I have wavered hugely over the last 3 days.
One of the unsung benefits of staying in is that the civil servants have an extra layer of bureaucracy to stop ministers from doing stupid things too easily. Less risk of lurching from left to right like the seventies and eighties.
The good thing about leaving is this whole security issue. But then if we cause the break up of the EU then the long term prospect of war starting in central/eastern Europe (again) is significant.
Stay in Europe, stay well out of the euro and Schengen. Cameron's deal might just work for lily livered liberals like me. |
Like the self deprecation, I am genuinely curious though. Whatever happened to liberals?
I used to imagine them as part renegade/free thinkers but these days they curtail to whatever big business, bureaucracy tells them is best.
Surely democracy should be the ultimate freedom yet most liberals seem hell bent on staying subservient to a European political class that we have no powers to remove or control. I just don't get it. |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:04 - Feb 22 with 1951 views | StraightR |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 11:08 - Feb 22 by HollowayRanger |
From next October the EU has decided to allow 84 million Turks the freedom to travel to the EU (including the UK) without a visa. That is more then the UK population given the right to come here. If you are for "IN" you better be darn sure that is what you want and you think that will be better "security". |
Are you sure about the statement that the Turks can enter the UK at will as of October? They may be able to enter other EU countries without a Schengen visa by then but we're not part of the Schengen zone.
Back on topic, I'm still undecided but leaning towards in. Not with any enthusiasm or commitment but simply because it's the least worse option. The risks of leaving are too great and the task of unravelling and recreating the structures of the last 40 something years too great.
Still on the fence right now. |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:07 - Feb 22 with 1943 views | zicoshoops |
Cameron took a gamble to be re-elected., he promised a referendum.
The first part went well, he got re-elected.
The second part not so well.
Maybe he thought it would be as simple as 'Do as I suggest.'
He's not the first arrogant Politician to come unstuck......and he won't be the last. |  | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:17 - Feb 22 with 1918 views | hoof_hearted |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:00 - Feb 22 by stevec |
Like the self deprecation, I am genuinely curious though. Whatever happened to liberals?
I used to imagine them as part renegade/free thinkers but these days they curtail to whatever big business, bureaucracy tells them is best.
Surely democracy should be the ultimate freedom yet most liberals seem hell bent on staying subservient to a European political class that we have no powers to remove or control. I just don't get it. |
A small L on my liberal!
Democracy works if you're in agreement with the majority. Not so much freedom if you don't!
Here's the basic argument for staying in and it's a very powerful one. The longest passage of time (ever?) without wars between major European countries. If there is a crazed leader of any EU country the EU gives damage limitation. Last week saw all these leaders talking. They used not to do that and it usually ended in bloodshed of the innocent. | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:23 - Feb 22 with 1909 views | essextaxiboy |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:04 - Feb 22 by StraightR |
Are you sure about the statement that the Turks can enter the UK at will as of October? They may be able to enter other EU countries without a Schengen visa by then but we're not part of the Schengen zone.
Back on topic, I'm still undecided but leaning towards in. Not with any enthusiasm or commitment but simply because it's the least worse option. The risks of leaving are too great and the task of unravelling and recreating the structures of the last 40 something years too great.
Still on the fence right now. |
Whenever it happens , a proportion of refugees,migrants, sleeper terrorists will be integrated as European Union citizens .Then they will have the right to live and work here as any other . If anyone has a foolproof way of sorting out the hard workingand law abiding from the rest great. As they have all chucked their ID on a bonfire so they can pass as refugees its not easy . We need people to come here but as Harry would say " the right sort" and to do that we need total control .... so we need to go .. If you are assessing risk you need to consider the future inside the EU not just the present . [Post edited 22 Feb 2016 12:26]
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:30 - Feb 22 with 1894 views | essextaxiboy |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:17 - Feb 22 by hoof_hearted |
A small L on my liberal!
Democracy works if you're in agreement with the majority. Not so much freedom if you don't!
Here's the basic argument for staying in and it's a very powerful one. The longest passage of time (ever?) without wars between major European countries. If there is a crazed leader of any EU country the EU gives damage limitation. Last week saw all these leaders talking. They used not to do that and it usually ended in bloodshed of the innocent. |
Can you honestly see anyone like Trump or Hitler getting past first base in any European country again ? | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:39 - Feb 22 with 1886 views | zicoshoops |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:17 - Feb 22 by hoof_hearted |
A small L on my liberal!
Democracy works if you're in agreement with the majority. Not so much freedom if you don't!
Here's the basic argument for staying in and it's a very powerful one. The longest passage of time (ever?) without wars between major European countries. If there is a crazed leader of any EU country the EU gives damage limitation. Last week saw all these leaders talking. They used not to do that and it usually ended in bloodshed of the innocent. |
Well I seem to remember that while we were a member of the EU, we had Ethnic cleansing, Concentration Camps, Death Squads, and the massacres of hundreds of thousands of civilians.
That was less than 25 years ago.....
That was within Europe.
I also remember the EU letting it rumble on for more than 3 years.
I may well be wrong, but I also remember it was the USA who took a leadership role in bringing the conflict within Europe to an end. | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:42 - Feb 22 with 1880 views | HollowayRanger |
isn't it NATO'S job to keep the peace in Europe not the eu's | |
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:49 - Feb 22 with 1869 views | hoof_hearted |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:30 - Feb 22 by essextaxiboy |
Can you honestly see anyone like Trump or Hitler getting past first base in any European country again ? |
Trump or Hitler? LOL. Great to se them linked together like that. The answer is yes, under certain circumstances which would hopefully never arise. Hungary? | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:50 - Feb 22 with 1867 views | essextaxiboy |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:42 - Feb 22 by HollowayRanger |
isn't it NATO'S job to keep the peace in Europe not the eu's |
Yes , an attack on one state is an attack on all . War in Europe is a barrel scraper IMO | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:52 - Feb 22 with 1862 views | hoof_hearted |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:39 - Feb 22 by zicoshoops |
Well I seem to remember that while we were a member of the EU, we had Ethnic cleansing, Concentration Camps, Death Squads, and the massacres of hundreds of thousands of civilians.
That was less than 25 years ago.....
That was within Europe.
I also remember the EU letting it rumble on for more than 3 years.
I may well be wrong, but I also remember it was the USA who took a leadership role in bringing the conflict within Europe to an end. |
Exactly. This was the tail end of them not being in the EU. Since they have been in the EU it's been relatively quiet. | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 13:02 - Feb 22 with 1842 views | hoof_hearted |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 12:50 - Feb 22 by essextaxiboy |
Yes , an attack on one state is an attack on all . War in Europe is a barrel scraper IMO |
Wasn't it about 100,000,000 lives lost in the first and second world wars. I think a little extra layer of protection from that is a good thing.
NATO is the armed forces in some sort of unity.
The EU gives unity for us civilians so that the maybe the armies are never needed within Europe (or anywhere, idealistically). | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 13:40 - Feb 22 with 1795 views | R_from_afar |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 16:56 - Feb 20 by QPRDave |
If we left the EU the whole of Britain wouldn't crumble you know
£24 mill a day we plough manically into the Euro coffers....madness |
According to research by the CBI, membership of the EU is worth approximately 4-5% of UK Gross Domestic Product every year, or £62-78bn, roughly the size of the economies of the north east and Northern Ireland combined. So, we're still over £50bn up by staying in.
RFA |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 14:07 - Feb 22 with 2353 views | jonno |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 13:40 - Feb 22 by R_from_afar |
According to research by the CBI, membership of the EU is worth approximately 4-5% of UK Gross Domestic Product every year, or £62-78bn, roughly the size of the economies of the north east and Northern Ireland combined. So, we're still over £50bn up by staying in.
RFA |
According to Radio 4 this morning that CBI "research" has since been discredited. And they would say that, anyway. By the way, the EU bill is actually £55 million per day, not 24. | | | |
| Euro Referendum - What do Loft for Words posters think? on 14:07 - Feb 22 with 2349 views | Discodroids |
From April 2016 Poland will drastically increase the rate at which they pay child benefit to 90.00 per month for each second/subsequent child.
Under the reform 'deal' we must now pay Child Benefit at the 'local' rate, which means a Polish family with three children (living in Poland) will receive 180.00 per month courtesy of UK Government. A British family with three children (living in Britain) will receive 192.40 per month.
A massive 'saving' of 12.40 per month.
However, if the Polish family have 4 children then they will receive 270.00 per month - as opposed to the British family receiving 247.20.
So, the manifesto promise to stop all Child Benefit payments for children living abroad has resulted in us actually paying more for children living abroad - in at least some cases.
Vichy Dave - you're a genius, mate. | |
| The Duke Of New York. A-Number One.
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