| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? 11:58 - Sep 19 with 6091 views | saint901 |
There's a report in the Times today claiming that 3.9m people are on sickness benefits in the UK.
That is one in five of the working population in some ares of the country.
Various nuances are identified as possible reasons for the increase in claims. Covid of course gets a mention. Cost of living increases as well on the grounds that some who have not previously bothered to claim, now do so to offset some costs.
It is suggested also that this is a situation which other countries are not experiencing. Again, one possible reason put forward is that the level of unemployment support int he UK is lower than comparable European countries meaning people turn to sickness benefits.
(This is the Times as well so there is a suggestion that this is a problem caused by or made worse by Labour being in power rather than something that has been going on and getting worse under a decade and more of Tory mismanagement.)
Is this a problem we need to solve and how?
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| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 10:42 - Sep 20 with 1162 views | dirk_doone |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 10:00 - Sep 20 by djsaint |
You’re deluded/blinded by politics if you think our country and it’s finances were all ship shape prior the tories last coming to power! |
Perhaps my own experience is different to yours, but the past decade is the only one in my lifetime when the state of this country has noticably worsened, not improved. |  |
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| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 11:14 - Sep 20 with 1121 views | saintwizzler |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 10:42 - Sep 20 by dirk_doone |
Perhaps my own experience is different to yours, but the past decade is the only one in my lifetime when the state of this country has noticably worsened, not improved. |
Correct. |  |
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| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 11:41 - Sep 20 with 1086 views | kingslandstand1 |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 07:55 - Sep 20 by saintwizzler |
Labour have come into to a right mess caused by the Conservatives and have said it’s going to get worse before it gets better.
The heating allowance should of been means tested years ago so the right people still received it and vice versa.
Things had to change and we couldn’t go on under the tories.
At least Starmer has come out and said it unlike the previous PMs who buried their heads in the sand.
Whoever voted Conservative at the last election can’t be short of money as they obviously wanted the country to continue as it was. The Rich get richer.
SHAME ON YOU
It’s going to take a very long time to get this country fixed
If it ever does.
😞
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8rx1jjg35ko |
I feel no SHAME as you like to emphasise that. You have your opinions which i fully respect, I have mine which you clearly do not.
Yes, I see Starmer as a two faced liar who got the gig based on the mess we were in which was down a lot due to the cost of Covid and I'm sure the Ukraine situation. We also had Farage putting his utopian dream in to the equation and has now buggered off to the States with his mate Trump
But it is what it is and bad times ahead as it would have been with either party in the chair, unless you're a train driver of course
Such a shame threads such as these (on a football forum!) end up in effect with name calling
Time for a group hug!
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| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 11:45 - Sep 20 with 1083 views | saint901 |
The focus here is whether the benefits offered (in this case sickness benefit) is being fairly claimed or applied.
There are however some issues above which touch on tax avoidance and evasion (separate things) and whether reducing those measures would allow us to pay more in benefits.
Whilst observing that such "logic" is missing the point, let's throw some facts around.
HMRC measures what it calls the tax gap. Latest value is just under £40bn. This is 4.8% of the total tax they estimate are due. This is down from 7.5% in 2005.
The measure distinguishes as foloows.:
Failure to take reasonable care - circa £12bn
Error and evasion - note the "error" - £12bn
Criminal attacks - £4bn
Differences in legal interpretation* - £4bn
Hidden economy - £2bn
Avoidance - £1.6bn
(I'm aware that these do do add exactly to the apparent "gap").
Chasing avoidance is expensive. If every case was chased, the cost may well be north of £250m and therefore the net amount collected would barely be enough to move the dial.
The criminal activity is mainly smuggling of cigarettes, fuel, alcohol. It is generally reckoned to be about as low as it can reasonably be.
The biggies are failure to take care and error/evasion.
Failure to take reasonable care is often excused because of the enormously complex tax law we have. Reducing that value has been very difficult and will not get better as more and more law is added.
Error - is often genuine. HMRC is not equipped to investigate every taxpayer and error unspotted is inevitable. I do not know how much of that £12bn is error and how much evasion.
Evasion is illegal. It often relies upon false declarations and hiding the truth. Again difficult to know the difference between this and error.
Let's assume however that HMRC targeted this (they have been content to allow it to carry on around the same percentage for 20 years) and collected 90%. Or £11bn. (Bear in mind that at the last report, HMRC is prepping Gov't to write off £19bn of tax that they say can never be collected - which is a different debate).
The increase in sickness claims is estimated to have cost £63bn. So £11bn is a dent but not significant. | | | |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 11:54 - Sep 20 with 1077 views | djsaint |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 10:42 - Sep 20 by dirk_doone |
Perhaps my own experience is different to yours, but the past decade is the only one in my lifetime when the state of this country has noticably worsened, not improved. |
So you weren’t affected by The Great Recession 2008 which was the birthing of ‘the age of austerity’? |  |
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| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 12:09 - Sep 20 with 1022 views | kingslandstand1 |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 11:54 - Sep 20 by djsaint |
So you weren’t affected by The Great Recession 2008 which was the birthing of ‘the age of austerity’? |
And who were in power in the years leading up to that? | | | |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 12:36 - Sep 20 with 953 views | Ifonly |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 11:45 - Sep 20 by saint901 |
The focus here is whether the benefits offered (in this case sickness benefit) is being fairly claimed or applied.
There are however some issues above which touch on tax avoidance and evasion (separate things) and whether reducing those measures would allow us to pay more in benefits.
Whilst observing that such "logic" is missing the point, let's throw some facts around.
HMRC measures what it calls the tax gap. Latest value is just under £40bn. This is 4.8% of the total tax they estimate are due. This is down from 7.5% in 2005.
The measure distinguishes as foloows.:
Failure to take reasonable care - circa £12bn
Error and evasion - note the "error" - £12bn
Criminal attacks - £4bn
Differences in legal interpretation* - £4bn
Hidden economy - £2bn
Avoidance - £1.6bn
(I'm aware that these do do add exactly to the apparent "gap").
Chasing avoidance is expensive. If every case was chased, the cost may well be north of £250m and therefore the net amount collected would barely be enough to move the dial.
The criminal activity is mainly smuggling of cigarettes, fuel, alcohol. It is generally reckoned to be about as low as it can reasonably be.
The biggies are failure to take care and error/evasion.
Failure to take reasonable care is often excused because of the enormously complex tax law we have. Reducing that value has been very difficult and will not get better as more and more law is added.
Error - is often genuine. HMRC is not equipped to investigate every taxpayer and error unspotted is inevitable. I do not know how much of that £12bn is error and how much evasion.
Evasion is illegal. It often relies upon false declarations and hiding the truth. Again difficult to know the difference between this and error.
Let's assume however that HMRC targeted this (they have been content to allow it to carry on around the same percentage for 20 years) and collected 90%. Or £11bn. (Bear in mind that at the last report, HMRC is prepping Gov't to write off £19bn of tax that they say can never be collected - which is a different debate).
The increase in sickness claims is estimated to have cost £63bn. So £11bn is a dent but not significant. |
saint901, what do you mean when you say "Chasing avoidance is expensive"? Avoidance is legal isn't it, so why would they chase it?
Avoidance includes (in my case) putting savings in my ISA. Doing things like this have been actively encouraged by previous governments, so why include avoidance in the tax gap at all? Is there a notional difference between approved avoidance (e.g. ISAs) and unapproved avoidance where some complex scheme cooked up by tax accountants stretches the law? | | | |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 12:59 - Sep 20 with 945 views | saintmark1976 |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 10:17 - Sep 20 by Ifonly |
"...if you genuinely think that middle class pensioners have ready access to the gold bullion or bitcoin markets I can only suggest such a view is at best extremely unlikely and most likely simply not feasible."
Every middle class pensioner already has access to the gold and bitcoin markets and many of people own them already. If someone wants physical gold, all they need is a couple hundred quid to buy things like this:
https://bullionhouse.co.uk/product-category/100g-gold-bars/
For bitcoin all you need is a phone. The most recent surveys estimate that 5.6 million people in the UK currently own cryptocurrencies including Bitcoin.
These things will only become more popular if they start taxing traditional savings. As I've explained this makes the tax unfair as the burden will fall on the law abiding middle classes. Tax avoidance will be adopted by the wealthy and tax evasion can be easily adopted by the non law abiding using routes like this. Just one of many reasons why this is a bad tax... |
So Ifonly, you genuinely think that middle class pensioners are suddenly going to invest in the unregulated bullion market and cryptocurrency with all their associated risks and possible market downsides to their savings ? Let alone the fact that my understanding is that such investments are not protected by the F C A. Particularly also given that as a cohort middle class pensioners are instinctively risk adverse.
Interesting hypothesis but in reality it simply won’t happen, frankly it’s for the birds. For goodness sake, 800000 pensioners can’t even work out how to or be bothered to claim pension credit, where if they were to be successful there is money to be had with no risk whatsoever !
Not that it matters much, but your quoted figure of 5.6 million UK owners of cryptocurrency is an overall total I presume ? Whereas all along I’ve referred to middle class pensioners alone.
Anyhow, I wish you well. More pressingly we have Ipswich at home tomorrow, where a home win will obviously be far more important to us both than our differences concerning Wealth Taxes. [Post edited 20 Sep 13:01]
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| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 13:06 - Sep 20 with 937 views | SaintNick |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 09:45 - Sep 20 by dirk_doone |
It's ironic that Tories are blaming Starmer for the mess they created over their 12 years in power. The Express, the Mail, the Telegraph and GB News have been at it with their anti-Starmer headlines nearly every day since the general election, and it's only 3 months since he inherited the mess their party left behind. It took 12 years to create this mess; it's going to take more than 3 months to sort it out. [Post edited 20 Sep 9:47]
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The Tories had 12 years in power, they inherited a country decimated by the Credit crunch, whilst undeniably the Tories made many mistakes whilst in power the 3 big issues that have caused the country to squander multi millions ( Just a phrase to cover the lot) were all caused by events outside the Governments control.
1. Brexit - Implemented by the Government after the people voted, you can't get much more socialist than that.
2. Covid - Strangely not invented by Boris Johnson whilst on a visit to a Wuhan laboratory.
3. The Ukraine war - this has far reaching issues other than just throwing a few billion at them when they need more missiles etc, but we have had to redivert other funds to our own defence programme. Inflation went mad because of the gas & oil issues
These are perhaps 3 of the biggest causes of our problems, would they have been any different under a Labour Government, I think not the people would still have voted out, Covid would still have hit and Labour would have gone with the experts and locked down and Putin would have still invaded. |  |
| Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime |
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| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 13:37 - Sep 20 with 907 views | City_boy |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 13:06 - Sep 20 by SaintNick |
The Tories had 12 years in power, they inherited a country decimated by the Credit crunch, whilst undeniably the Tories made many mistakes whilst in power the 3 big issues that have caused the country to squander multi millions ( Just a phrase to cover the lot) were all caused by events outside the Governments control.
1. Brexit - Implemented by the Government after the people voted, you can't get much more socialist than that.
2. Covid - Strangely not invented by Boris Johnson whilst on a visit to a Wuhan laboratory.
3. The Ukraine war - this has far reaching issues other than just throwing a few billion at them when they need more missiles etc, but we have had to redivert other funds to our own defence programme. Inflation went mad because of the gas & oil issues
These are perhaps 3 of the biggest causes of our problems, would they have been any different under a Labour Government, I think not the people would still have voted out, Covid would still have hit and Labour would have gone with the experts and locked down and Putin would have still invaded. |
Totally agree.
Add to this Interest rate increases, that most developed countries experienced, and where people thought the land of easy money would last for ever. Those of a certain age on here will remember rates of 15% in the 80's.
More importantly, are we close to doing booze cruises again to France for cheap Stella stubbies ?  [Post edited 20 Sep 13:42]
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| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 13:45 - Sep 20 with 891 views | saintwizzler |
To be running a new government down after such a short time is a bit odd.
Let’s give them 11 games till the international break before bringing Warnock in and Starmer can sit out the rest of his contract Hasenhüttl style.
WE MARCH ON | |
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| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 13:47 - Sep 20 with 887 views | Ifonly |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 12:59 - Sep 20 by saintmark1976 |
So Ifonly, you genuinely think that middle class pensioners are suddenly going to invest in the unregulated bullion market and cryptocurrency with all their associated risks and possible market downsides to their savings ? Let alone the fact that my understanding is that such investments are not protected by the F C A. Particularly also given that as a cohort middle class pensioners are instinctively risk adverse.
Interesting hypothesis but in reality it simply won’t happen, frankly it’s for the birds. For goodness sake, 800000 pensioners can’t even work out how to or be bothered to claim pension credit, where if they were to be successful there is money to be had with no risk whatsoever !
Not that it matters much, but your quoted figure of 5.6 million UK owners of cryptocurrency is an overall total I presume ? Whereas all along I’ve referred to middle class pensioners alone.
Anyhow, I wish you well. More pressingly we have Ipswich at home tomorrow, where a home win will obviously be far more important to us both than our differences concerning Wealth Taxes. [Post edited 20 Sep 13:01]
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No I don't think they're suddenly going to invest in gold and bitcoin because they're doing it already. It'll just happen in larger numbers when there are extra incentives to do it (that's just basic economics). As stated, there are millions who own gold and bitcoin today, so that's millions who either are or will be pensioners. What's really for the birds is the idea that they will sell.
There may indeed be thousands of people who can't work out pension credit, but the millions who own gold and bitcoin are generally not the same as those earning less than £220 a week and so eligible for pension credit. Earning £220 a week is probably not enough to be described as middle class. | | | |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 13:53 - Sep 20 with 887 views | Ifonly |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 13:06 - Sep 20 by SaintNick |
The Tories had 12 years in power, they inherited a country decimated by the Credit crunch, whilst undeniably the Tories made many mistakes whilst in power the 3 big issues that have caused the country to squander multi millions ( Just a phrase to cover the lot) were all caused by events outside the Governments control.
1. Brexit - Implemented by the Government after the people voted, you can't get much more socialist than that.
2. Covid - Strangely not invented by Boris Johnson whilst on a visit to a Wuhan laboratory.
3. The Ukraine war - this has far reaching issues other than just throwing a few billion at them when they need more missiles etc, but we have had to redivert other funds to our own defence programme. Inflation went mad because of the gas & oil issues
These are perhaps 3 of the biggest causes of our problems, would they have been any different under a Labour Government, I think not the people would still have voted out, Covid would still have hit and Labour would have gone with the experts and locked down and Putin would have still invaded. |
Yes Nick. I am no fan of the Tories but most of the problems that we've faced as a country are not their fault.
I'd add to that list 2 of our biggest problems:
1. Demographics. Our aging population is the fundamental reason why we are facing problems with the public finances and part of the reason why there are so many sick, which is where this thread started.
2. Climate change. We've had to invest billions in green energy and subsidise it, while shutting down our profitable north sea energy. It needs to be done, but it is costing billions. | | | |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 14:34 - Sep 20 with 869 views | saintmark1976 |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 13:47 - Sep 20 by Ifonly |
No I don't think they're suddenly going to invest in gold and bitcoin because they're doing it already. It'll just happen in larger numbers when there are extra incentives to do it (that's just basic economics). As stated, there are millions who own gold and bitcoin today, so that's millions who either are or will be pensioners. What's really for the birds is the idea that they will sell.
There may indeed be thousands of people who can't work out pension credit, but the millions who own gold and bitcoin are generally not the same as those earning less than £220 a week and so eligible for pension credit. Earning £220 a week is probably not enough to be described as middle class. |
The wonderful thing about Nick’s site Ifonly, is that in the main contributors air and discuss their differences without recourse to any animosity and that’s what you and I have done on this occasion.
Sometimes however there comes a point when it’s best to rely on the expression which has stood the time so we’ll :-
“ we are simply going to have to agree to disagree “. I think we’ve reached that point don’t you ?
In any event and as previously stated, I wish you well and hope that you enjoy your weekend culminating on Saturday with a first home win of the season. A result which will unite us in common purpose, our support of The Saints. | |
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| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 16:27 - Sep 20 with 830 views | Berber |
Quite simply, since the beginning of Austerity, the rich have got richer, and the poor have got poorer. There are ample surveys to show this, and I’m not going to find one, because it is just about a given truth.
This has got nothing to do with the benefits system, it has got to do with a broken taxation and economic system. Much as i don’t like or trust Starmer and co, they have not been the ones in power during this period. |  |
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| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 17:08 - Sep 20 with 823 views | kingslandstand1 |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 13:45 - Sep 20 by saintwizzler |
To be running a new government down after such a short time is a bit odd.
Let’s give them 11 games till the international break before bringing Warnock in and Starmer can sit out the rest of his contract Hasenhüttl style.
WE MARCH ON |
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| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 17:57 - Sep 20 with 802 views | UTS1885 |
The cost is so minor in the grand scheme of things and there are so many other areas where the government finances are totally abused. Its been a huge failure by our governments that over the last 25 years or so, millions have become totally reliant on benefits to do the basics of life. |  | | |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 18:36 - Sep 20 with 795 views | kingslandstand1 |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 13:06 - Sep 20 by SaintNick |
The Tories had 12 years in power, they inherited a country decimated by the Credit crunch, whilst undeniably the Tories made many mistakes whilst in power the 3 big issues that have caused the country to squander multi millions ( Just a phrase to cover the lot) were all caused by events outside the Governments control.
1. Brexit - Implemented by the Government after the people voted, you can't get much more socialist than that.
2. Covid - Strangely not invented by Boris Johnson whilst on a visit to a Wuhan laboratory.
3. The Ukraine war - this has far reaching issues other than just throwing a few billion at them when they need more missiles etc, but we have had to redivert other funds to our own defence programme. Inflation went mad because of the gas & oil issues
These are perhaps 3 of the biggest causes of our problems, would they have been any different under a Labour Government, I think not the people would still have voted out, Covid would still have hit and Labour would have gone with the experts and locked down and Putin would have still invaded. |
I forgot to mention the small matter of Brexit! | | | |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 18:40 - Sep 20 with 793 views | Ifonly |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 14:34 - Sep 20 by saintmark1976 |
The wonderful thing about Nick’s site Ifonly, is that in the main contributors air and discuss their differences without recourse to any animosity and that’s what you and I have done on this occasion.
Sometimes however there comes a point when it’s best to rely on the expression which has stood the time so we’ll :-
“ we are simply going to have to agree to disagree “. I think we’ve reached that point don’t you ?
In any event and as previously stated, I wish you well and hope that you enjoy your weekend culminating on Saturday with a first home win of the season. A result which will unite us in common purpose, our support of The Saints. |
yes the game should be enjoyable and hopefully the result too | | | |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 19:33 - Sep 22 with 607 views | Southamptonfan |
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0jw193ydw6o.amp
Our leader gets free tickets now. I'm sure Rishi, had the same luxuries, but should multi millionnaires get free tickets just because they are the PM, especially when the same PM has taken away money from pensioners this winter? Surely they should pay for their own tickets, in the name.of trust and faith in politics, that he promised. I want my gift please. [Post edited 22 Sep 19:38]
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| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 08:22 - Sep 23 with 485 views | saint901 |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 12:36 - Sep 20 by Ifonly |
saint901, what do you mean when you say "Chasing avoidance is expensive"? Avoidance is legal isn't it, so why would they chase it?
Avoidance includes (in my case) putting savings in my ISA. Doing things like this have been actively encouraged by previous governments, so why include avoidance in the tax gap at all? Is there a notional difference between approved avoidance (e.g. ISAs) and unapproved avoidance where some complex scheme cooked up by tax accountants stretches the law? |
NO such thing as approved avoidance or unapproved avoidance.
There is no definition of avoidance in tax law.. It's basically whatever somebody in HMRC thinks is "unacceptable" that day.
ISA, pensions, EIS, SEIS, VCT - all - to use your phrase - approved avoidance.
Unsubstantiated expense claims, tax losses without commercial effect, gilts stripping, payments via trusts and loans - all unapproved avoidance which is legal but nonetheless chased down by HMRC.
This is where the cost is. | | | |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 08:36 - Sep 23 with 480 views | cocklebreath |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 18:36 - Sep 20 by kingslandstand1 |
I forgot to mention the small matter of Brexit! |
Yes the tories did nothing wrong governor, honest it was all the other things, Boris deffo wasn’t an absolute turd, Liz was smashing. Bring back the tories look how labour have failed the NHS in just 3 months, disgrace |  |
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| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 08:53 - Sep 23 with 473 views | PatfromPoole |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 13:06 - Sep 20 by SaintNick |
The Tories had 12 years in power, they inherited a country decimated by the Credit crunch, whilst undeniably the Tories made many mistakes whilst in power the 3 big issues that have caused the country to squander multi millions ( Just a phrase to cover the lot) were all caused by events outside the Governments control.
1. Brexit - Implemented by the Government after the people voted, you can't get much more socialist than that.
2. Covid - Strangely not invented by Boris Johnson whilst on a visit to a Wuhan laboratory.
3. The Ukraine war - this has far reaching issues other than just throwing a few billion at them when they need more missiles etc, but we have had to redivert other funds to our own defence programme. Inflation went mad because of the gas & oil issues
These are perhaps 3 of the biggest causes of our problems, would they have been any different under a Labour Government, I think not the people would still have voted out, Covid would still have hit and Labour would have gone with the experts and locked down and Putin would have still invaded. |
Who was the Prime Minister who agreed to hold the Brexit referendum??? |  |
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| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 08:58 - Sep 23 with 453 views | kentsouthampton |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 11:54 - Sep 20 by djsaint |
So you weren’t affected by The Great Recession 2008 which was the birthing of ‘the age of austerity’? |
Caused by the GLOBAL banking crash noddy, a crash which Gordon Brown was extricating us from fairly well, the subsequent recovery was wrecked by Osbourne. What is it with morons like you trying to
rewrite history. |  | | |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 11:16 - Sep 23 with 423 views | Bazza |
| Benefits - essential safety net or invitation to abuse? on 08:58 - Sep 23 by kentsouthampton |
Caused by the GLOBAL banking crash noddy, a crash which Gordon Brown was extricating us from fairly well, the subsequent recovery was wrecked by Osbourne. What is it with morons like you trying to
rewrite history. |
Gordon Brown sold our gold when the market was at a low, but as you suggest why do morons like you try to rewrite history? | | | |
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