| Club announcement pending 20:58 - Jul 20 with 42794 views | KeithHaynes |
Sorry we can’t bring any more than this at the moment, but it’s only fair we place on record we are told the club are about to make an announcement. It would be wrong to speculate any further at this time.
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| Club announcement pending on 16:34 - Jul 22 with 1494 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Club announcement pending on 16:23 - Jul 22 by jack247 |
Of course it’s a black mark. Walking out on a job when you don’t have another to go to doesn’t look good to any employer. As I’ve said on another post, my worry is, he knows our budget, he knows who is likely to come in and to leave. He may feel he can’t get near the playoffs this time and that would leave a bigger black mark.
Would you not expect Winter to know the ins and outs here more than me, you or anyone on here? I thought he was going to leave, changed my mind when he had nowhere to go (I do change my opinions as circumstances dictate, I don’t feel the need to belligerently stick to them to prevent people calling me out on the internet).
It’s Winters job to know what Coopers plans are and to act accordingly.
Just as a scenario, as I think this is how you think it played out.
‘Steve, you can go to Fulham, but we’re gonna ask them for £3m’
‘But, they won’t pay that, I’ll be stuck here, you know I want out.’
‘Yeah, well they can pay up or look elsewhere.’
‘Fine, but if you price me out of this move I’m walking’
Does Winter then lower the compensation, or just agree a mutual consent a couple of weeks before the start of the season? Does he not know his manager well enough to believe him?
Comments from these people themselves? You’d have to be pretty different to watch Cooper answer those questions and not understand the message he is conveying.
You have shown an array of reports, you’ve hand picked click bait from the likes of team talk. |
It’s not a black mark, it’s football. People leave jobs all the time. He hasn’t had a single bad season in club football, walking away after being denied the chance to manage a bigger club is not a black mark. Managers aren’t appointed by robots, the people who next hire Cooper will be fully aware of why he left.
I told you my views on Winter. I think he felt he could keep Cooper placated by saying he would allow him to talk to bigger clubs. However it proved futile when he was being intentionally unreasonable with the asking price (as per the reports). I think he, like you, didn’t expect him to quit.
Whether it is Winters job to know what someone’s plans are or not is irrelevant, people’s plans change all the time. I think Cooper fully expected to stay on at Swansea if a bigger move didn’t materialise, however the unreasonable nature of the asking price may well have caused a rift that couldn’t be repaired.
I think the conversation went more like:-
“Winter, I would like to test myself at a higher level and would like to move on”.
“Don’t be so hasty chap. If you get an offer, I’ll allow you to talk to them and we can go from there, won’t be a problem”.
“Seems reasonable mate. Thanks for your understanding”
“Winter, these clubs are saying they aren’t going to be paying what you are asking, you said you would allow it”.
“We have to do what’s best for the club, if they won’t pay it there isn’t much we can do”.
“I quit”.
I have shown an array of reports, they are from all different sources from the Mail, to Football insider to Alan Nixon. Why you have focussed on team talk I don’t know, I can only assume you are trying to frame things a certain way again.
Feel free to show me any reports from anywhere saying the club wanted him out all summer or that he was approaching other clubs to be their new manager. One will do. |  |
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| Club announcement pending on 16:35 - Jul 22 with 1488 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Club announcement pending on 16:19 - Jul 22 by Dr_Parnassus |
It is the same.
If they don’t want him to stay then they sack him or let his contract run out.
If they want to keep him they offer him a longer one.
As I said, I am yet to hear of a single example of a club that wants a manager to leave so offer him a longer contract. |
They are not allowed to let his contact run out. It’s not a football contract (like a player has) it’s an employment contract and if they let it run out it’s an unfair dismissal (as he has been at the club for more than 2 years so is protected under U.K. law).
The not sacking him bit is because they were presumably trying to do it without paying out.
The issue with fixed term contracts here is why clubs so frequently use rolling contracts.
They could say we’ll offer you a new deal at the same terms. That’s allowed under law but is transparently a message telling him to go. He says no, tries to get another job, doesn’t and so eventually the club pay out.
Who knows.
All of it is speculation. There are various scenarios that are all equally possible, |  | | |
| Club announcement pending on 16:39 - Jul 22 with 1467 views | vetchonian |
| Club announcement pending on 16:35 - Jul 22 by londonlisa2001 |
They are not allowed to let his contact run out. It’s not a football contract (like a player has) it’s an employment contract and if they let it run out it’s an unfair dismissal (as he has been at the club for more than 2 years so is protected under U.K. law).
The not sacking him bit is because they were presumably trying to do it without paying out.
The issue with fixed term contracts here is why clubs so frequently use rolling contracts.
They could say we’ll offer you a new deal at the same terms. That’s allowed under law but is transparently a message telling him to go. He says no, tries to get another job, doesn’t and so eventually the club pay out.
Who knows.
All of it is speculation. There are various scenarios that are all equally possible, |
Well put Lisa
and as you say who knows? Only those involved and they will not be saying anything
And again we are speculating but in the meanwhile we have a team with no manager or direction and 0nly 16 days till kick off [Post edited 22 Jul 2021 16:43]
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| Club announcement pending on 16:39 - Jul 22 with 1466 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Club announcement pending on 16:25 - Jul 22 by vetchonian |
Why is walking out without a job any worse than being sacked as a "black mark" on a CV..especially in football management.
IT happens in all industries where relationships break down or situations create circumstances in which individuals feel they can no longer continue and walk away, I ve seen it for myself...with those individuals picking up their careers often after a "little break"
How many other football managers have been sacked...not just once but several times but still get jobs?
Cooper can demonstrate that when he walked away he had some success....some may say he failed as we lost teh final and didnt get promoted....but over the two seasons he was here the data shows he improved our league position year on year and got us to a final.....he left as he felt he didnt get what he needed in January to ensure promotion either by cementing the second auto spot or ensuring he had a competetive enough squad to win the final.
I dont agree that by walking away Cooper has damaged his reputation anymore than as if he was sacked....but how can you tout yourself if there are not many jobs vacant .....there were possibly 4 , Palace and Fulham where the media linked him as being on those clubs radar, then there was West Brom and the U21 job...maybe perhaps he did sound them out as insurance again we dont know we can only speclate second guess and we can as I say spend hours debating events which have now passed but left us as a club in a sticky situation 16 days before the start of the new season.
No manager in place yet, or coaching/backroom team so at best they will have 15 days perhaps to get to know the squad and formulate their play.
Unsettled players who were expecting to be playing under a manager who had brought them here,players who wonder what the new manager will want of them or even want them....links broken with identifed loanees and potential loss of links with clubs who could potentisally loan us players in the future as there is no knowledge of the incoming managers pedigree at developing players.
Cooper has now joined the ever growing list of long departed Swansea managers I am grateful to him for his work over last two seasons, dissapointed he has gone but more so in the way it has been managed and the "delight " many of our fans are taking in his leaving and the spin they have created that it is due to the lack of style.
We can continue debating this ad nasueum...the issue as I keep saying is bias affects how individuals interpret the facts the only ones who really know the truth are not going to come out and tell us...for one Cooper has been paid not to! [Post edited 22 Jul 2021 16:32]
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Correct. People are determined to state any and every scenario is a negative one for Cooper.
Pretending that it is some big black mark against his name because he left us after finishing 6th and 4th after reportedly being unreasonably priced out of a move to the Premier League and/or favourites for promotion to the Premier League is not a black mark.
His stock will be higher leaving after those two seasons than staying on with the resources the club have and sinking to mid table obscurity, which was likely to happen given what’s happening to the squad.
Grimes about to depart almost certainly. | |
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| Club announcement pending on 16:52 - Jul 22 with 1435 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Club announcement pending on 16:35 - Jul 22 by londonlisa2001 |
They are not allowed to let his contact run out. It’s not a football contract (like a player has) it’s an employment contract and if they let it run out it’s an unfair dismissal (as he has been at the club for more than 2 years so is protected under U.K. law).
The not sacking him bit is because they were presumably trying to do it without paying out.
The issue with fixed term contracts here is why clubs so frequently use rolling contracts.
They could say we’ll offer you a new deal at the same terms. That’s allowed under law but is transparently a message telling him to go. He says no, tries to get another job, doesn’t and so eventually the club pay out.
Who knows.
All of it is speculation. There are various scenarios that are all equally possible, |
Fair post, I wasn’t aware of the managerial contract not being allowed to run out.
Although I would say a scenario of the club wanting a manager out that they pay buttons to who is getting closer and closer to doubling the company value is not equal to a scenario of them wanting to keep him on.
All so they can appoint former Conference North and caretaker QPR manager. Doesn’t make any sense really.
The catalyst is very clearly that Cooper was the party that wanted out, which probably stemmed from January and culminated in the unreasonable fees that have been widely reported that the club was demanding from Fulham and Palace added to the apparent imminent decimation of the squad with Grimes following Ayew out the door.
Yes other scenarios could be possible, but given what we know they seem unlikely compared to the obvious. They are largely being used by people who disliked Cooper. Quite predictably I might add. [Post edited 22 Jul 2021 16:56]
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| Club announcement pending on 18:17 - Jul 22 with 1351 views | jack247 |
| Club announcement pending on 16:34 - Jul 22 by Dr_Parnassus |
It’s not a black mark, it’s football. People leave jobs all the time. He hasn’t had a single bad season in club football, walking away after being denied the chance to manage a bigger club is not a black mark. Managers aren’t appointed by robots, the people who next hire Cooper will be fully aware of why he left.
I told you my views on Winter. I think he felt he could keep Cooper placated by saying he would allow him to talk to bigger clubs. However it proved futile when he was being intentionally unreasonable with the asking price (as per the reports). I think he, like you, didn’t expect him to quit.
Whether it is Winters job to know what someone’s plans are or not is irrelevant, people’s plans change all the time. I think Cooper fully expected to stay on at Swansea if a bigger move didn’t materialise, however the unreasonable nature of the asking price may well have caused a rift that couldn’t be repaired.
I think the conversation went more like:-
“Winter, I would like to test myself at a higher level and would like to move on”.
“Don’t be so hasty chap. If you get an offer, I’ll allow you to talk to them and we can go from there, won’t be a problem”.
“Seems reasonable mate. Thanks for your understanding”
“Winter, these clubs are saying they aren’t going to be paying what you are asking, you said you would allow it”.
“We have to do what’s best for the club, if they won’t pay it there isn’t much we can do”.
“I quit”.
I have shown an array of reports, they are from all different sources from the Mail, to Football insider to Alan Nixon. Why you have focussed on team talk I don’t know, I can only assume you are trying to frame things a certain way again.
Feel free to show me any reports from anywhere saying the club wanted him out all summer or that he was approaching other clubs to be their new manager. One will do. |
You’re assuming incorrectly again. The only reason I only quoted team talk was that out of the three on your timeline of events prior to the resignation, it was the only one referenced.
Yes people leave jobs all the time, people rarely walk out on jobs without another to go to. That’s a black mark. It could easily be construed as a tendency to quit when the going gets tough or to put his reputation before his contract.
Your conversation seems quite plausible, however the next step would be Winter going back to Fulham and saying ‘actually guys, Steve really wants this move, we’re prepared to negotiate’.
Of course, it’s plausible they were telling the truth when they said Silva was their main target from the outset.
Maybe Winter didn’t initially expect Cooper to quit. I’m sure Cooper brought him up to speed if a potential move was being held up by compensation. | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 18:28 - Jul 22 with 1334 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Club announcement pending on 16:52 - Jul 22 by Dr_Parnassus |
Fair post, I wasn’t aware of the managerial contract not being allowed to run out.
Although I would say a scenario of the club wanting a manager out that they pay buttons to who is getting closer and closer to doubling the company value is not equal to a scenario of them wanting to keep him on.
All so they can appoint former Conference North and caretaker QPR manager. Doesn’t make any sense really.
The catalyst is very clearly that Cooper was the party that wanted out, which probably stemmed from January and culminated in the unreasonable fees that have been widely reported that the club was demanding from Fulham and Palace added to the apparent imminent decimation of the squad with Grimes following Ayew out the door.
Yes other scenarios could be possible, but given what we know they seem unlikely compared to the obvious. They are largely being used by people who disliked Cooper. Quite predictably I might add. [Post edited 22 Jul 2021 16:56]
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I was one of those that would have been more than happy for him to stay.
I think he did a good job with the squad he had. I personally thought it weak in areas, lacking both pace and creativity and the football was a result of that rather than his preference.
I also think as I’ve said elsewhere, that football as a whole appears a lot more boring watching online with zero atmosphere and it may not have been anywhere near as dull as it seems if the ground was full.
Still, once it became obvious he was going, it needed to happen quickly, and I can’t help think it should have been a few weeks ago.
If Eustace is the manager, which appears more than likely, I will support him and hope he is a massive success. I can’t say I know anything much of him, not taking that much interest in other teams’ assistants. I am concerned that having been caretaker he wasn’t appointed, and also that he couldn’t get the Doncaster job a few weeks ago where he was in the running. I am also concerned that we will look back on this and say it was a huge mistake. But let’s hope we say instead it was the start of great things again.
But what can any of us do either way.
As an aside, I am gobsmacked they didn’t go with Toshack. [Post edited 22 Jul 2021 18:30]
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| Club announcement pending on 18:38 - Jul 22 with 1307 views | Dr_Winston |
If Cooper wanted to play with pace and creativity he would't have sidelined Celina or Peterson. We played the way we did because that's precisely the way Cooper wanted us to. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Club announcement pending on 18:46 - Jul 22 with 1277 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Club announcement pending on 18:38 - Jul 22 by Dr_Winston |
If Cooper wanted to play with pace and creativity he would't have sidelined Celina or Peterson. We played the way we did because that's precisely the way Cooper wanted us to. |
Are you sure that it was Cooper that caused the Celina situation?
Because there are various versions of what happened there. | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 19:49 - Jul 22 with 1199 views | vetchonian |
| Club announcement pending on 18:46 - Jul 22 by londonlisa2001 |
Are you sure that it was Cooper that caused the Celina situation?
Because there are various versions of what happened there. |
it suits the anti Cooper narrative Lisa..despite what the facts actually may be | |
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| Club announcement pending on 20:02 - Jul 22 with 1174 views | AndyCole |
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Plenty of local, proper speculation (assessment) that Cooper & Co's understandably reasonable requirements (and expectations form the Birch chapter) were not met.
Winter is digging himself a massive hole and could have made one of the biggest gaffes in football CEO gaffes.
Eustace ? Terry ? Toshack ? Blimey, says it all.
Winter Out.
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| Pro free speech and alternative opinions -
Anti gang-bullying and poor modding thereof -
Will always make a stand against those who consistently choose to turn a blind eye |
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| Club announcement pending on 20:06 - Jul 22 with 1159 views | onehunglow |
| Club announcement pending on 20:02 - Jul 22 by AndyCole |
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Plenty of local, proper speculation (assessment) that Cooper & Co's understandably reasonable requirements (and expectations form the Birch chapter) were not met.
Winter is digging himself a massive hole and could have made one of the biggest gaffes in football CEO gaffes.
Eustace ? Terry ? Toshack ? Blimey, says it all.
Winter Out.
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As you know I wanted Cooper gone a long time ago.
However,Im not exactly enthused right now although Dr Winton did post to me without using pejorative language. He's a card is Jamie.As astute,articulate and erudite a they come.A man who is never wrong,when around him are d1ckwads
Innit | |
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| Club announcement pending on 22:19 - Jul 22 with 1076 views | jack247 |
| Club announcement pending on 20:02 - Jul 22 by AndyCole |
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Plenty of local, proper speculation (assessment) that Cooper & Co's understandably reasonable requirements (and expectations form the Birch chapter) were not met.
Winter is digging himself a massive hole and could have made one of the biggest gaffes in football CEO gaffes.
Eustace ? Terry ? Toshack ? Blimey, says it all.
Winter Out.
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What were the demands?
As for Winter, if he actually did demand £3m for Cooper a couple of weeks before paying him off, then I agree, Winter out.
Of course, it’s hardly implausible that both clubs interviewed Cooper and decided to go in a different direction.
As I’ve said a few times, I’m more concerned that something, or a combination of things, has caused him to walk out. | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 23:30 - Jul 22 with 1028 views | majorraglan |
| Club announcement pending on 20:02 - Jul 22 by AndyCole |
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Plenty of local, proper speculation (assessment) that Cooper & Co's understandably reasonable requirements (and expectations form the Birch chapter) were not met.
Winter is digging himself a massive hole and could have made one of the biggest gaffes in football CEO gaffes.
Eustace ? Terry ? Toshack ? Blimey, says it all.
Winter Out.
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Are you able to elaborate on this? Be good to have an idea of what’s been playing out behind the scenes.Thanks | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 23:48 - Jul 22 with 1014 views | AndyCole |
| Club announcement pending on 22:19 - Jul 22 by jack247 |
What were the demands?
As for Winter, if he actually did demand £3m for Cooper a couple of weeks before paying him off, then I agree, Winter out.
Of course, it’s hardly implausible that both clubs interviewed Cooper and decided to go in a different direction.
As I’ve said a few times, I’m more concerned that something, or a combination of things, has caused him to walk out. |
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So, imagine if you had masterminded an equally outstanding achievement, surpassing all expectations (of even the most entitled stakeholder), in your line of work. And you didn't get the reward and recognition you deserved, or expected.
And if your agent was encouraging you to at least sound out your many top level suitors. Knowing all the while your current employer had let you down, reneged on a gentlemans agreement. With a hapless, relatively inferior new boss. You would surely do the same as Cooper.
Most especially if the top level suitors absolutely want you and your team based on your outstanding achievements, against all the odds.
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| Pro free speech and alternative opinions -
Anti gang-bullying and poor modding thereof -
Will always make a stand against those who consistently choose to turn a blind eye |
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| Club announcement pending on 01:18 - Jul 23 with 973 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Club announcement pending on 18:17 - Jul 22 by jack247 |
You’re assuming incorrectly again. The only reason I only quoted team talk was that out of the three on your timeline of events prior to the resignation, it was the only one referenced.
Yes people leave jobs all the time, people rarely walk out on jobs without another to go to. That’s a black mark. It could easily be construed as a tendency to quit when the going gets tough or to put his reputation before his contract.
Your conversation seems quite plausible, however the next step would be Winter going back to Fulham and saying ‘actually guys, Steve really wants this move, we’re prepared to negotiate’.
Of course, it’s plausible they were telling the truth when they said Silva was their main target from the outset.
Maybe Winter didn’t initially expect Cooper to quit. I’m sure Cooper brought him up to speed if a potential move was being held up by compensation. |
I’m not assuming incorrectly, you are framing things in a certain way intentionally, no point in denying it.
This is football management, it happens. That’s some stretch you are making to try and suggest that this is all awfully bad for Cooper (again). If I was Cooper I would have done exactly the same by the sounds of it. I am 100% certain that someone looking to take him on after succeeding every single year in the role, they aren’t going to say “hang on here, he left this job by mutual consent after two very successful years, let’s move on to Colin Appleton lads”.
It has nothing to do with the going getting tough. A ball is yet to be kicked in anger. The last recorded position he left us in, is 4th.
Why are you adding a next step in my conversation that I don’t believe exists? I have categorically said I don’t think the club wanted Cooper to go and certainly didn’t expect him to quit. Why would he say he was prepared to negotiate when I don’t believe he was (and of course the reports don’t suggest anything of the sort). I believe he thought Cooper would sign an extension once options were exhausted.
Again, as soon as we start deviating from the obvious, we have to start doing some mental gymnastics and contortion in order to make it fit. Once you start having to do that, you are probably heading down the wrong path. People are willingly doing that with Cooper because they didn’t like him. Just odd. [Post edited 23 Jul 2021 2:36]
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| Club announcement pending on 01:23 - Jul 23 with 971 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Club announcement pending on 18:28 - Jul 22 by londonlisa2001 |
I was one of those that would have been more than happy for him to stay.
I think he did a good job with the squad he had. I personally thought it weak in areas, lacking both pace and creativity and the football was a result of that rather than his preference.
I also think as I’ve said elsewhere, that football as a whole appears a lot more boring watching online with zero atmosphere and it may not have been anywhere near as dull as it seems if the ground was full.
Still, once it became obvious he was going, it needed to happen quickly, and I can’t help think it should have been a few weeks ago.
If Eustace is the manager, which appears more than likely, I will support him and hope he is a massive success. I can’t say I know anything much of him, not taking that much interest in other teams’ assistants. I am concerned that having been caretaker he wasn’t appointed, and also that he couldn’t get the Doncaster job a few weeks ago where he was in the running. I am also concerned that we will look back on this and say it was a huge mistake. But let’s hope we say instead it was the start of great things again.
But what can any of us do either way.
As an aside, I am gobsmacked they didn’t go with Toshack. [Post edited 22 Jul 2021 18:30]
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Agree with all of that. | |
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| Club announcement pending on 06:41 - Jul 23 with 907 views | jack247 |
| Club announcement pending on 01:18 - Jul 23 by Dr_Parnassus |
I’m not assuming incorrectly, you are framing things in a certain way intentionally, no point in denying it.
This is football management, it happens. That’s some stretch you are making to try and suggest that this is all awfully bad for Cooper (again). If I was Cooper I would have done exactly the same by the sounds of it. I am 100% certain that someone looking to take him on after succeeding every single year in the role, they aren’t going to say “hang on here, he left this job by mutual consent after two very successful years, let’s move on to Colin Appleton lads”.
It has nothing to do with the going getting tough. A ball is yet to be kicked in anger. The last recorded position he left us in, is 4th.
Why are you adding a next step in my conversation that I don’t believe exists? I have categorically said I don’t think the club wanted Cooper to go and certainly didn’t expect him to quit. Why would he say he was prepared to negotiate when I don’t believe he was (and of course the reports don’t suggest anything of the sort). I believe he thought Cooper would sign an extension once options were exhausted.
Again, as soon as we start deviating from the obvious, we have to start doing some mental gymnastics and contortion in order to make it fit. Once you start having to do that, you are probably heading down the wrong path. People are willingly doing that with Cooper because they didn’t like him. Just odd. [Post edited 23 Jul 2021 2:36]
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You certainly assumed incorrectly there. I could only reference team talk because there was no mention of the other two sources. That’s just fact.
We agree he’s had two successful years. One of the first questions any employer will ask is ‘why did you walk out at Swansea?’ He’d better have a good answer. I’ve no doubt he’ll get another job, however his stock will be lower now than it was a week ago. If only Cooper and Colin Appleton apply, I’d back Cooper.
Like any player or manager who leaves, he’s not my concern now. I’m more worried about the circumstances that brought him to this conclusion.
Re. Your conversation, because the reality is, it wouldn’t have been a simplistic four or five line conversation. Cooper would have been kept informed and would have made his feelings known. Wouldn’t you have been prepared to negotiate in those circumstances? If an employee makes it known that you smooth the path for him or he’s going to quit, costing you money and time with his replacement?
This is also the point of a discussion forum. You amended my discussion, I didn’t question why. People are supposed to express their own views,
The going got tougher when Ayews contract expired and Guehi went back to Chelsea. It’s hopefully not going to get any worse, we’ll just have to hope Grimes is here at the end of the window. | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 06:44 - Jul 23 with 905 views | Dr_Winston |
"The main thing is we get back playing and get a philosophy back to the club"
Curt knows. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Club announcement pending on 06:56 - Jul 23 with 894 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Club announcement pending on 06:41 - Jul 23 by jack247 |
You certainly assumed incorrectly there. I could only reference team talk because there was no mention of the other two sources. That’s just fact.
We agree he’s had two successful years. One of the first questions any employer will ask is ‘why did you walk out at Swansea?’ He’d better have a good answer. I’ve no doubt he’ll get another job, however his stock will be lower now than it was a week ago. If only Cooper and Colin Appleton apply, I’d back Cooper.
Like any player or manager who leaves, he’s not my concern now. I’m more worried about the circumstances that brought him to this conclusion.
Re. Your conversation, because the reality is, it wouldn’t have been a simplistic four or five line conversation. Cooper would have been kept informed and would have made his feelings known. Wouldn’t you have been prepared to negotiate in those circumstances? If an employee makes it known that you smooth the path for him or he’s going to quit, costing you money and time with his replacement?
This is also the point of a discussion forum. You amended my discussion, I didn’t question why. People are supposed to express their own views,
The going got tougher when Ayews contract expired and Guehi went back to Chelsea. It’s hopefully not going to get any worse, we’ll just have to hope Grimes is here at the end of the window. |
You could only reference them on the surface, but knew very well they were from a variety of sources. You don’t have to be Columbo to work that one out, come on now.
His answer will probably be “I was hoping you would ask that. After taking Swansea from 10th to 6th and then 4th with ever decreasing funds to work with, I was denied the opportunity to manage a Premier League club after the chairman made unreasonable demands from those clubs. This after having sub par players signed on my behalf and forced upon me when we needed a striker to push on. After that our best player was released and was about to have my captain sold under my feet”.
His stock being lower than it was a week ago isn’t the issue. The issue is would his stock be lower staying and being completely unable to do anything with that the owners have left him, or leave with two superbly successful years banked. The answer is obvious.
I have answered you regarding the conversation. I do not think our owners were prepared to negotiate at all, because ultimately they wanted to keep Cooper. Why wouldn’t they want to keep such a successful manager that costs the club next to nothing.
I highly doubt Cooper was kept informed of discussions between the clubs when it comes to the financials of the deal. I also highly doubt the nuclear button was pushed by Cooper until both Fulham and Palace made their contingency choices. I don’t agree that Cooper would be constantly in Winters ear saying “if you don’t make this happen then I’m off”.
The going got tougher every year. Dan James and McBurnie were sold and replaced cheaply, then Rodon was sold... to think the going got tougher just this summer is mildly amusing.
You are painting things in the negative, quite obviously. Why, is more the question I’m interested in. | |
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| Club announcement pending on 07:14 - Jul 23 with 872 views | jack247 |
| Club announcement pending on 06:56 - Jul 23 by Dr_Parnassus |
You could only reference them on the surface, but knew very well they were from a variety of sources. You don’t have to be Columbo to work that one out, come on now.
His answer will probably be “I was hoping you would ask that. After taking Swansea from 10th to 6th and then 4th with ever decreasing funds to work with, I was denied the opportunity to manage a Premier League club after the chairman made unreasonable demands from those clubs. This after having sub par players signed on my behalf and forced upon me when we needed a striker to push on. After that our best player was released and was about to have my captain sold under my feet”.
His stock being lower than it was a week ago isn’t the issue. The issue is would his stock be lower staying and being completely unable to do anything with that the owners have left him, or leave with two superbly successful years banked. The answer is obvious.
I have answered you regarding the conversation. I do not think our owners were prepared to negotiate at all, because ultimately they wanted to keep Cooper. Why wouldn’t they want to keep such a successful manager that costs the club next to nothing.
I highly doubt Cooper was kept informed of discussions between the clubs when it comes to the financials of the deal. I also highly doubt the nuclear button was pushed by Cooper until both Fulham and Palace made their contingency choices. I don’t agree that Cooper would be constantly in Winters ear saying “if you don’t make this happen then I’m off”.
The going got tougher every year. Dan James and McBurnie were sold and replaced cheaply, then Rodon was sold... to think the going got tougher just this summer is mildly amusing.
You are painting things in the negative, quite obviously. Why, is more the question I’m interested in. |
It’s not really my job to be Columbo is it? If I can only reference one source, you can only expect me to reference one source. ‘On the surface’ is a nice alternative to ‘factually’.
Yes, his answer probably would, though we don’t know whether he was denied a premier league job by compensation demands or Crystal Palace. We have differing views there. The follow up question would likely be ‘so how will you react if things don’t go your way here?’.
The third paragraph agree with completely and it’s what worries me. People don’t storm into unemployment because they didn’t get another job. My worry is he may think another season here would do more damage to his reputation than the action he has taken. That concerns me because it is a SCFC issue.
I haven’t suggested the going just got tougher for the first time. He was obviously prepared to accept it two years ago when James and McBurnie were sold as he was in the position the likes of Eustace are now. Your second paragraph hints at the going getting tougher being part of why you think he has left (and I agree).
You think there was no room for negotiation, Cooper was kept in the dark and we were prepared to pay him off rather than receive a trivial figure or release him for free, putting us a couple of weeks ahead of where we are now. Fair enough, I don’t agree, but you’re entitled to that.
What do you mean by negative?
Phrases like ‘touting himself about’ and ‘went for the job’ or saying walking out would have harmed his reputation? Or anything else? | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 07:54 - Jul 23 with 851 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Club announcement pending on 07:14 - Jul 23 by jack247 |
It’s not really my job to be Columbo is it? If I can only reference one source, you can only expect me to reference one source. ‘On the surface’ is a nice alternative to ‘factually’.
Yes, his answer probably would, though we don’t know whether he was denied a premier league job by compensation demands or Crystal Palace. We have differing views there. The follow up question would likely be ‘so how will you react if things don’t go your way here?’.
The third paragraph agree with completely and it’s what worries me. People don’t storm into unemployment because they didn’t get another job. My worry is he may think another season here would do more damage to his reputation than the action he has taken. That concerns me because it is a SCFC issue.
I haven’t suggested the going just got tougher for the first time. He was obviously prepared to accept it two years ago when James and McBurnie were sold as he was in the position the likes of Eustace are now. Your second paragraph hints at the going getting tougher being part of why you think he has left (and I agree).
You think there was no room for negotiation, Cooper was kept in the dark and we were prepared to pay him off rather than receive a trivial figure or release him for free, putting us a couple of weeks ahead of where we are now. Fair enough, I don’t agree, but you’re entitled to that.
What do you mean by negative?
Phrases like ‘touting himself about’ and ‘went for the job’ or saying walking out would have harmed his reputation? Or anything else? |
I’m not suggesting you need to be Columbo, in fact it was quite the opposite. Maybe a smiley would have been better to show I wasn’t being literal?
My point was it was blindingly obvious that they were all different sources. This isn’t news to any Swansea fan that hasn’t been hiding under a rock - or indeed selectively reading and hearing things. These were widely reported at the time and still are.
“On the surface” meaning it was the only quote with the source in its text. It had nothing to do with any factual nature, you don’t seem to be following anything I’m saying at the moment, it’s truly bizarre.
I don’t have a view, I am going by reports that Cooper was a prime target of both Palace and Fulham yet neither were prepared to pay the millions of pounds to buy him out of a contract with a matter months rather than years left. Fairly plausible.
The follow up answer would be “glad you asked. I have a great track record of exceeding expectations when things “don’t go my way”. However things not going my way isn’t what I would describe as incompetence, neglect and unreasonable behaviour. If you are sure there will not be any of those three elements present at your club then I don’t envisage any issues at all... will there be?”
People often leave jobs due to unworkable employment environments. Many have done so before knowing that an exceptional CV would allow scope to walk into another that suited my ambitions. It’s not unusual. If he was only walking away because things were worse than the year before then he wouldn’t have come in the first place and certainly wouldn’t have stayed for a second year. It’s yet another red herring.
My paragraph didn’t hint at it at all. My paragraph hinted at the fact that he is not getting the backing he clearly needed to fulfil his ambitions. As I said, If the going getting tough was a reason to leave then he would never have come. I believe the reason he left was the January debacle topped off by the pig headedness of the reports stating we were standing firm on his clause being met.
I don’t “think” anything. I am factually stating the series of reported events where we demanded millions for Cooper despite his contractual situation and clubs baulking at the sheer nonsense of it. It is also logical to think that a club would want its most successful Championship manager in a decade to stay... which points to the scenario that the club tried all it could to keep him hoping he would enter into negotiations to sign an extension, yet Cooper pulled the pin.
The scenario where the club wanted him to leave doesn’t appear to carry any logical weight, apart from those that have a penchant for framing things in the negative with him.
Not sure what you mean by asking what I mean by negative. I think that’s self explanatory isn’t it?
The prime scenario clearly to anyone with half a brain cell here is that Cooper wanted to leave as he was unhappy with the direction of the club, both on and off the pitch. Framing that as “the club wanting him out” because of the logic that “once they recognised he wanted to leave they had to let him go and so for that time wanted him out” is misrepresenting a situation, in order to undermine Cooper.
This is one of dozens of ways this has been done over the summer, and yes falsely stating he “was touting himself about” when nothing suggests that at all is also one of the favourite ones. Again I would assure you that while we are the ones discussing this you haven’t been the main protagonist, but you didn’t seem to like it when I did it last. So I’ll just hope that you know that’s the case without me confirming it.
Another of my favourites is akin to my neighbour telling me he bought a new car but preferred the Vauxhall Corsa over the Bugatti... failing to disclose that he only preferred it because the other option means he would have to pay £400k instead of £4k. [Post edited 23 Jul 2021 7:57]
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| Club announcement pending on 08:30 - Jul 23 with 811 views | jack247 |
| Club announcement pending on 07:54 - Jul 23 by Dr_Parnassus |
I’m not suggesting you need to be Columbo, in fact it was quite the opposite. Maybe a smiley would have been better to show I wasn’t being literal?
My point was it was blindingly obvious that they were all different sources. This isn’t news to any Swansea fan that hasn’t been hiding under a rock - or indeed selectively reading and hearing things. These were widely reported at the time and still are.
“On the surface” meaning it was the only quote with the source in its text. It had nothing to do with any factual nature, you don’t seem to be following anything I’m saying at the moment, it’s truly bizarre.
I don’t have a view, I am going by reports that Cooper was a prime target of both Palace and Fulham yet neither were prepared to pay the millions of pounds to buy him out of a contract with a matter months rather than years left. Fairly plausible.
The follow up answer would be “glad you asked. I have a great track record of exceeding expectations when things “don’t go my way”. However things not going my way isn’t what I would describe as incompetence, neglect and unreasonable behaviour. If you are sure there will not be any of those three elements present at your club then I don’t envisage any issues at all... will there be?”
People often leave jobs due to unworkable employment environments. Many have done so before knowing that an exceptional CV would allow scope to walk into another that suited my ambitions. It’s not unusual. If he was only walking away because things were worse than the year before then he wouldn’t have come in the first place and certainly wouldn’t have stayed for a second year. It’s yet another red herring.
My paragraph didn’t hint at it at all. My paragraph hinted at the fact that he is not getting the backing he clearly needed to fulfil his ambitions. As I said, If the going getting tough was a reason to leave then he would never have come. I believe the reason he left was the January debacle topped off by the pig headedness of the reports stating we were standing firm on his clause being met.
I don’t “think” anything. I am factually stating the series of reported events where we demanded millions for Cooper despite his contractual situation and clubs baulking at the sheer nonsense of it. It is also logical to think that a club would want its most successful Championship manager in a decade to stay... which points to the scenario that the club tried all it could to keep him hoping he would enter into negotiations to sign an extension, yet Cooper pulled the pin.
The scenario where the club wanted him to leave doesn’t appear to carry any logical weight, apart from those that have a penchant for framing things in the negative with him.
Not sure what you mean by asking what I mean by negative. I think that’s self explanatory isn’t it?
The prime scenario clearly to anyone with half a brain cell here is that Cooper wanted to leave as he was unhappy with the direction of the club, both on and off the pitch. Framing that as “the club wanting him out” because of the logic that “once they recognised he wanted to leave they had to let him go and so for that time wanted him out” is misrepresenting a situation, in order to undermine Cooper.
This is one of dozens of ways this has been done over the summer, and yes falsely stating he “was touting himself about” when nothing suggests that at all is also one of the favourite ones. Again I would assure you that while we are the ones discussing this you haven’t been the main protagonist, but you didn’t seem to like it when I did it last. So I’ll just hope that you know that’s the case without me confirming it.
Another of my favourites is akin to my neighbour telling me he bought a new car but preferred the Vauxhall Corsa over the Bugatti... failing to disclose that he only preferred it because the other option means he would have to pay £400k instead of £4k. [Post edited 23 Jul 2021 7:57]
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I’m not a protagonist at all. If I think Cooper has been touting himself about over the summer and the club have happily sat back and let him, I’ll say it. If I find his style of football dreary, I’ll say that.
Equally, if I think his results far exceeded realistic expectations over 2 years and that my preference would have been to keep him, I’ll say that. Also, though I haven’t said it for a few weeks, that people should be careful what they wish for.
There are some on here that are so anti Cooper it’s laughable, at the same time, there are some that won’t have a word said against him. I really don’t think I’m in either camp.
The main disagreement between me and yourself is I don’t think Winter would be incompetent enough to try to strongarm a man who didn’t want to be here by pricing him out of moves. I didn’t think he’d walk, maybe you’re right and Winter didn’t either (though I very much doubt Winter wouldn’t have known exactly where Cooper was at with it).
You won’t convince me that is the reason he isn’t at those clubs until they come out and say ‘we would have appointed Steve Cooper but couldn’t reach an agreement with Swansea’, which they obviously won’t do. | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 08:33 - Jul 23 with 808 views | Thornburyswan |
| Club announcement pending on 07:54 - Jul 23 by Dr_Parnassus |
I’m not suggesting you need to be Columbo, in fact it was quite the opposite. Maybe a smiley would have been better to show I wasn’t being literal?
My point was it was blindingly obvious that they were all different sources. This isn’t news to any Swansea fan that hasn’t been hiding under a rock - or indeed selectively reading and hearing things. These were widely reported at the time and still are.
“On the surface” meaning it was the only quote with the source in its text. It had nothing to do with any factual nature, you don’t seem to be following anything I’m saying at the moment, it’s truly bizarre.
I don’t have a view, I am going by reports that Cooper was a prime target of both Palace and Fulham yet neither were prepared to pay the millions of pounds to buy him out of a contract with a matter months rather than years left. Fairly plausible.
The follow up answer would be “glad you asked. I have a great track record of exceeding expectations when things “don’t go my way”. However things not going my way isn’t what I would describe as incompetence, neglect and unreasonable behaviour. If you are sure there will not be any of those three elements present at your club then I don’t envisage any issues at all... will there be?”
People often leave jobs due to unworkable employment environments. Many have done so before knowing that an exceptional CV would allow scope to walk into another that suited my ambitions. It’s not unusual. If he was only walking away because things were worse than the year before then he wouldn’t have come in the first place and certainly wouldn’t have stayed for a second year. It’s yet another red herring.
My paragraph didn’t hint at it at all. My paragraph hinted at the fact that he is not getting the backing he clearly needed to fulfil his ambitions. As I said, If the going getting tough was a reason to leave then he would never have come. I believe the reason he left was the January debacle topped off by the pig headedness of the reports stating we were standing firm on his clause being met.
I don’t “think” anything. I am factually stating the series of reported events where we demanded millions for Cooper despite his contractual situation and clubs baulking at the sheer nonsense of it. It is also logical to think that a club would want its most successful Championship manager in a decade to stay... which points to the scenario that the club tried all it could to keep him hoping he would enter into negotiations to sign an extension, yet Cooper pulled the pin.
The scenario where the club wanted him to leave doesn’t appear to carry any logical weight, apart from those that have a penchant for framing things in the negative with him.
Not sure what you mean by asking what I mean by negative. I think that’s self explanatory isn’t it?
The prime scenario clearly to anyone with half a brain cell here is that Cooper wanted to leave as he was unhappy with the direction of the club, both on and off the pitch. Framing that as “the club wanting him out” because of the logic that “once they recognised he wanted to leave they had to let him go and so for that time wanted him out” is misrepresenting a situation, in order to undermine Cooper.
This is one of dozens of ways this has been done over the summer, and yes falsely stating he “was touting himself about” when nothing suggests that at all is also one of the favourite ones. Again I would assure you that while we are the ones discussing this you haven’t been the main protagonist, but you didn’t seem to like it when I did it last. So I’ll just hope that you know that’s the case without me confirming it.
Another of my favourites is akin to my neighbour telling me he bought a new car but preferred the Vauxhall Corsa over the Bugatti... failing to disclose that he only preferred it because the other option means he would have to pay £400k instead of £4k. [Post edited 23 Jul 2021 7:57]
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You make some good points Dr but a couple from me if I may :-
1. Cooper’s buy out clause/amounts would have been in the contract he signed so his team would have been well aware of it prior to any negotiations with Palace/Fulham/WBA etc - I’ve seen nothing to suggest there were any meaningful negotiations between any of those clubs & Winter/Owners to attempt to reduce the payment. It feels, to me at least, that whilst they had an interest in Cooper & for at least the first 2 of those 3 clubs he’d made the short list of potential new managers their final decision would have been based on a wide range of factors not just the contracted compensation. Clearly Winter could have offered to waive some/all of any contracted compensation but that would have been an unusual opening gambit, particularly if he was happy to retain Cooper & even offer him a new contract.
2. Agree the walking bit from Cooper is not a black mark, more of a question mark for any future employer & as you have covered in one of your many posts relatively easily explainable particularly if we struggle to match his league results this season.
3. Finally broadly agree that Cooper was not “touting himself about” all 3 clubs he has been linked with over the summer are in a stronger position than us, he was entering into his last year of current contract on reported mid-division salary levels & our need to sell our most valuable players before wheeling & dealing in the bargain/free/loan markets so compelling reasons to have a look at what was out there. Personally I have no issue with that, equally I have no issue with Winter not rolling out the red carpet or going on bended knee in an attempt to retain him - the mutually agreed parting of the ways is, in my opinion, the right outcome for both the club & Cooper. He may go onto bigger/better things & we might crash and burn and be in League 1 for 22/23 but that will not mean it is not the right outcome. | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 08:47 - Jul 23 with 788 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Club announcement pending on 08:30 - Jul 23 by jack247 |
I’m not a protagonist at all. If I think Cooper has been touting himself about over the summer and the club have happily sat back and let him, I’ll say it. If I find his style of football dreary, I’ll say that.
Equally, if I think his results far exceeded realistic expectations over 2 years and that my preference would have been to keep him, I’ll say that. Also, though I haven’t said it for a few weeks, that people should be careful what they wish for.
There are some on here that are so anti Cooper it’s laughable, at the same time, there are some that won’t have a word said against him. I really don’t think I’m in either camp.
The main disagreement between me and yourself is I don’t think Winter would be incompetent enough to try to strongarm a man who didn’t want to be here by pricing him out of moves. I didn’t think he’d walk, maybe you’re right and Winter didn’t either (though I very much doubt Winter wouldn’t have known exactly where Cooper was at with it).
You won’t convince me that is the reason he isn’t at those clubs until they come out and say ‘we would have appointed Steve Cooper but couldn’t reach an agreement with Swansea’, which they obviously won’t do. |
But your thoughts aren’t based on anything with regards to that.
When you state it you don’t caveat it with the fact it’s your opinion based on nothing, you state it as fact. Would you like me to give you some examples? You saying “Cooper touted himself out” is factually incorrect unless you can prove otherwise or indeed show any sort of reporting of that kind.
I’m always an advocate for honest posting. I’m not one who won’t say a bad word against him, I think his omission of Cabango was poor for one and explained in detail why. But intentionally contorting reality is something that I can never allow to pass by without highlighting it. It’s that political tabloid rhetoric that I can’t stand.
I’m amazed you have such high opinions of Winter. The guy that brought in two off season loan players when the manager was crying out for a striker. I don’t think competency is high up on the list of descriptive words for Winter.
I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am just making the point that your version of events exists only on the screen you type it on. The version of events you disagree with is reported absolutely everywhere. | |
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