| So is the Martinball experiment dead? 21:39 - Sep 3 with 9110 views | Dr_Parnassus |
What on earth has happened here?
Last season I touched upon the key metrics Martin judges performance by, being vastly different to what everyone else does - to the point that “success” in those Martinball areas (pass count, possession, pass number) was actually hindering the result and a reduction in all of the above correlates directly to higher points.
45% possession, 423 passes 19.9% long balls (?!)
No passing for passings sake, no short balls at all costs mantra, no pointless possession just to keep hold of the ball. So refreshing.
In our last two games we have averaged 48% possession and got 4 points from 6.
Martin has either been given an absolute roasting or he’s had an epiphany that what he was doing was never going to work.
Either one is fine by me. I rarely get excited by wins these days knowing that it’s very likely Martinball will be back the next week…. But this time it feels different, I think the witch may actually be dead?
Well done Martin for finally changing it and of course well done to the players. Let’s finally play to this squads ability. |  |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 13:10 - Sep 4 with 1390 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
The forum statisticians fail to factor into their models that there are two teams on the pitch and the way the game pans out depends on the opponent. Some teams play what some people called a few years ago "parasite " football feeding sole off mistakes and doing nothing particularly constructive of their own.
It is clear to most of us and probably Martin as well that he has not got the balance right. To play possession football is exactly the right way to play but it must be balanced with some beef resilience and decisive play n occasions. Mixing it up a little will confuse the opposition. If they know What Swansea are going to do at all times they can make plans to counteract it. |  |
| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? (n/t) on 15:28 - Sep 4 with 1319 views | Jak365 |
[Post edited 30 Oct 2022 1:15]
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 17:23 - Sep 4 with 1271 views | onehunglow |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? (n/t) on 15:28 - Sep 4 by Jak365 |
[Post edited 30 Oct 2022 1:15]
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Brum will look to rough us up.
We need to do the basics again and get another win
This can be a good season and we need to build on Saturday
Meanwhile ,offer a new improved contract to young Cooper and give the captain armband to Joe Allen. Might be an idea to bench Grimes now. | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:28 - Sep 4 with 1204 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 13:10 - Sep 4 by ReslovenSwan1 |
The forum statisticians fail to factor into their models that there are two teams on the pitch and the way the game pans out depends on the opponent. Some teams play what some people called a few years ago "parasite " football feeding sole off mistakes and doing nothing particularly constructive of their own.
It is clear to most of us and probably Martin as well that he has not got the balance right. To play possession football is exactly the right way to play but it must be balanced with some beef resilience and decisive play n occasions. Mixing it up a little will confuse the opposition. If they know What Swansea are going to do at all times they can make plans to counteract it. |
So for 14 months we have played teams who don’t want to play football allowing us 80% possession, 800 passes and 95% short passes 93% of which completed….
And it just so happens that in the last 2 games Stoke and QPR have restricted us to average possession of about 47%? Made us hit 20% long balls? Let us only complete 75% of passes and only attempt about 400?
Aye okay. We are talking Stoke and QPR here not Real Madrid and Bayern Munich  | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 02:15 - Sep 5 with 1161 views | Kerouac |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:28 - Sep 4 by Dr_Parnassus |
So for 14 months we have played teams who don’t want to play football allowing us 80% possession, 800 passes and 95% short passes 93% of which completed….
And it just so happens that in the last 2 games Stoke and QPR have restricted us to average possession of about 47%? Made us hit 20% long balls? Let us only complete 75% of passes and only attempt about 400?
Aye okay. We are talking Stoke and QPR here not Real Madrid and Bayern Munich |
Make it make sense
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 03:12 - Sep 5 with 1155 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 02:15 - Sep 5 by Kerouac |
Make it make sense
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I wish I could, people are in dreamland unfortunately and completely (intentionally) blind to what’s in front of them.
So all along when we were suggesting that we go long when needed, that all the short passing was pointless and counter productive, that we were having way too much safe possession and way too many passes…. and we were told that it’s his way and we should learn to deal with it because it isn’t changing….
Well now the narrative is that they were trying to do this all along. 
I’d say “you couldn’t make it up” but people clearly and unashamedly are. | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 16:17 - Sep 5 with 1094 views | vetchonian |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 10:56 - Sep 4 by magicdaps10 |
This is why you seen an instant switch from a back 3 to a flat 4.
Martin instructed Pato and Sorinola to hug the line and Naughton to go into right back........the highline certainly helped us, Sorinola had a field day running into space, better execution and we could have got a few more, the square pass behind Piroe when Sorinola should have taken it up to the keeper and then rolled a square ball to Piroe for an open goal.
The QPR boss got his tactics terribly wrong and Martin was quick to exploit it. |
We started with a flat back 4..there was no in game tactical switch
We were set up
4-5-1
Naughton, Woods Cabango Manning
Grimes
Sorinola, Allen, Pato
Cooper
Piroe
With Cooper pushing up alongside Piroe | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 16:38 - Sep 5 with 1090 views | magicdaps10 |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 16:17 - Sep 5 by vetchonian |
We started with a flat back 4..there was no in game tactical switch
We were set up
4-5-1
Naughton, Woods Cabango Manning
Grimes
Sorinola, Allen, Pato
Cooper
Piroe
With Cooper pushing up alongside Piroe |
We started with a back 3...... Cabango central with Naughton on the right and Wood on the left.
Martin changed it straight after the pull back by Cabango. |  |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 18:20 - Sep 5 with 1064 views | jasper_T |
We've started with a back four in most of our games this season. | | | |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 18:28 - Sep 5 with 1057 views | jack247 |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 16:38 - Sep 5 by magicdaps10 |
We started with a back 3...... Cabango central with Naughton on the right and Wood on the left.
Martin changed it straight after the pull back by Cabango. |
That was within the first minute. I honestly couldn’t tell you how we’d been set up for the 45 seconds or so before it happened. | | | |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 18:57 - Sep 5 with 1039 views | magicdaps10 |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 18:28 - Sep 5 by jack247 |
That was within the first minute. I honestly couldn’t tell you how we’d been set up for the 45 seconds or so before it happened. |
The change was really quick, I was really Suprised myself how quick he switched it.
He was literally calling Wood and pointing to the space in behind Laird, I seen him gesturing to a player on the far side that turned out to be Sorinola and made the arking symbol to him and then made the gesture of push up and then then the thumb up to him.
I had the feeling at the time that his eyes probably lit up with witnessing QPR turning up to play us on the front foot......as I said, when teams come to sit then this is when we struggle and it needs to be addressed with better movement further forward otherwise the defence and midfield have to recycle the ball more times than they would like and need too. | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 21:04 - Sep 5 with 1009 views | Kerouac |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 03:12 - Sep 5 by Dr_Parnassus |
I wish I could, people are in dreamland unfortunately and completely (intentionally) blind to what’s in front of them.
So all along when we were suggesting that we go long when needed, that all the short passing was pointless and counter productive, that we were having way too much safe possession and way too many passes…. and we were told that it’s his way and we should learn to deal with it because it isn’t changing….
Well now the narrative is that they were trying to do this all along.
I’d say “you couldn’t make it up” but people clearly and unashamedly are. |
I like possession football, but if you're playing with a purpose (trying to create) you occasionally lose the ball.
If Man City have 70%+ possession, there is a good chance that they were still playing attacking football...it's just that they are so much stronger than their opposition, relatively, that they continually win the ball back quickly and make every spell of possession result in a shot/cross.
When we had 70%+ possession, given that we are not stronger than the rest of the division, you have to ask 'how are we getting 70%+ possession that regularly?'
...and the answer of course was that it was a combination of the way we set up, the tactics and the way the opposition set up to counter that... which resulted in us passing it around and around in circles in our own half between the defence and the midfield...width wasn't possible, our "wing-backs" were cast adrift in the attacking line and barely ever got a long pass up to them.
The plan was to tire out the opposition and play through the middle into the hole...the oppo just sat in and denied us on both counts.
Saturday was like a confession letter from Martin;
- Benda in goals
- Flat back 4
- a 4-5-1 shape
- Ollie cooper playing in the hole (Ntcham could have done that, Wolf could too, Congreve or Patterson)
- Piroe back up top
- ditching the goal-kick nonsense
- Benda being allowed to just clear it
- The defence being allowed to just clear it when needed
...all that was missing was genuine pace. Pick any 2 from Obafemi, Joseph & Whittaker instead of Sorinola and Patterson (maybe Patterson playing CAM instead of Cooper last season) ...and we would have improved further.
We could stick the 2020s equivalent of Nial Quin or John Fashanu up top and bang the ball forward religiously, aimlessly...and the Martin fans would still somehow make it make sense (to themselves at least)
Re: Swansea City fans (as opposed to Russell Martin fans)
Some of us saw it wasn't working early on, some of us took a little longer, at this moment the vast majority can see with their own eyes that Martinball is a failure and are just grateful that something has changed (whether he has been ordered to do it or it is one last desperate throw of the dice is irrelevant, to an extent) [Post edited 5 Sep 2022 21:06]
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 21:22 - Sep 5 with 990 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 16:38 - Sep 5 by magicdaps10 |
We started with a back 3...... Cabango central with Naughton on the right and Wood on the left.
Martin changed it straight after the pull back by Cabango. |
Changed after 40 seconds | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 21:23 - Sep 5 with 987 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 21:04 - Sep 5 by Kerouac |
I like possession football, but if you're playing with a purpose (trying to create) you occasionally lose the ball.
If Man City have 70%+ possession, there is a good chance that they were still playing attacking football...it's just that they are so much stronger than their opposition, relatively, that they continually win the ball back quickly and make every spell of possession result in a shot/cross.
When we had 70%+ possession, given that we are not stronger than the rest of the division, you have to ask 'how are we getting 70%+ possession that regularly?'
...and the answer of course was that it was a combination of the way we set up, the tactics and the way the opposition set up to counter that... which resulted in us passing it around and around in circles in our own half between the defence and the midfield...width wasn't possible, our "wing-backs" were cast adrift in the attacking line and barely ever got a long pass up to them.
The plan was to tire out the opposition and play through the middle into the hole...the oppo just sat in and denied us on both counts.
Saturday was like a confession letter from Martin;
- Benda in goals
- Flat back 4
- a 4-5-1 shape
- Ollie cooper playing in the hole (Ntcham could have done that, Wolf could too, Congreve or Patterson)
- Piroe back up top
- ditching the goal-kick nonsense
- Benda being allowed to just clear it
- The defence being allowed to just clear it when needed
...all that was missing was genuine pace. Pick any 2 from Obafemi, Joseph & Whittaker instead of Sorinola and Patterson (maybe Patterson playing CAM instead of Cooper last season) ...and we would have improved further.
We could stick the 2020s equivalent of Nial Quin or John Fashanu up top and bang the ball forward religiously, aimlessly...and the Martin fans would still somehow make it make sense (to themselves at least)
Re: Swansea City fans (as opposed to Russell Martin fans)
Some of us saw it wasn't working early on, some of us took a little longer, at this moment the vast majority can see with their own eyes that Martinball is a failure and are just grateful that something has changed (whether he has been ordered to do it or it is one last desperate throw of the dice is irrelevant, to an extent) [Post edited 5 Sep 2022 21:06]
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Spot on.
“ We could stick the 2020s equivalent of Nial Quin or John Fashanu up top and bang the ball forward religiously, aimlessly...and the Martin fans would still somehow make it make sense (to themselves at least)”
And the above is so true it’s scary. | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 21:49 - Sep 5 with 969 views | magicdaps10 |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 21:22 - Sep 5 by Dr_Parnassus |
Changed after 40 seconds |
At what time did he change the formation in Saturdays game?
I admit that my timing might have been off but he most certainly started with a back 3 and wing backs. | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:29 - Sep 5 with 946 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 21:49 - Sep 5 by magicdaps10 |
At what time did he change the formation in Saturdays game?
I admit that my timing might have been off but he most certainly started with a back 3 and wing backs. |
He didn’t.
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 23:17 - Sep 5 with 911 views | jacaranda |
I think we've been underestimating Mr Martin(give me a bit of hope here)
Play them badly, look like they were 1 hit wonders, keep hold of them!
Buy a few early, the big teams take a step back thinking we may not be the desperate sellers we've always been.
The new boys on loan, nobody saw coming.
Our first win after several massive mental setbacks,
Let's March up the table with our new style,that nobody saw coming because we told everybody we played a different way, which we can switch back we need to bamboozle a team.
I'm fully in | | | |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 05:44 - Sep 6 with 872 views | vetchonian |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 21:49 - Sep 5 by magicdaps10 |
At what time did he change the formation in Saturdays game?
I admit that my timing might have been off but he most certainly started with a back 3 and wing backs. |
he didn't change it and Cabango started on the left....his shirt pull was close to the West stand touchline...his header on the west stand side of the ground....Wood was further over towards the East maybe daps you need to stop watching from that box | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 06:03 - Sep 6 with 867 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 05:44 - Sep 6 by vetchonian |
he didn't change it and Cabango started on the left....his shirt pull was close to the West stand touchline...his header on the west stand side of the ground....Wood was further over towards the East maybe daps you need to stop watching from that box |
Yep.
I keep saying it, but the amount of people who leave a game and have absolutely no idea what they just saw, is staggering.
They either genuinely have no clue or simply see what they want to see. Confirmation bias.
I’ve never heard so much nonsense in all my life than on here recently where certain individuals say literally any old rubbish in order to prevent themselves from admitting that Martin has changed the approach to what many of us have been asking for - because his way wasn’t working, for the exact reasons we said.
So in this latest instance, we have someone insisting that 40 seconds into the match, the manager magically waves his arms about and we instantly became a back 4 and every player knew exactly that we were going to play long balls and direct passes to an extent we haven’t seen before under his reign.
No wonder the other board were ripping into Daps the other day. It’s getting embarrassing to read.
Martin was clearly at the edge of the cliff with his style of play. He had two options.
1. Continue the pig headed approach and jump and likely drown
2. Back away from the edge, swallow your pride and play a more sensible way.
He, thankfully, chose the latter. | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 07:30 - Sep 6 with 841 views | PawelAbbott |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 23:17 - Sep 5 by jacaranda |
I think we've been underestimating Mr Martin(give me a bit of hope here)
Play them badly, look like they were 1 hit wonders, keep hold of them!
Buy a few early, the big teams take a step back thinking we may not be the desperate sellers we've always been.
The new boys on loan, nobody saw coming.
Our first win after several massive mental setbacks,
Let's March up the table with our new style,that nobody saw coming because we told everybody we played a different way, which we can switch back we need to bamboozle a team.
I'm fully in |
Maybe his plan has been to be crap for 12 months. Then no one looks at us as a big team and they no longer come here to defend deep.
Then, when we look absolutely dire, we switch formations. Play fast, attacking football and sweep to take the Title!!!
Martin is a genius after all!!
I'd better pop out and get a new hat for the Victory parade before they sell out. | | | |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 07:45 - Sep 6 with 836 views | magicdaps10 |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 22:29 - Sep 5 by Dr_Parnassus |
He didn’t.
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He definetly did!
I was there and seen it with my own eyes and other posters have said the same who were there and it was discussed with my colleagues at the time of the game. | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 08:05 - Sep 6 with 813 views | vetchonian |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 07:45 - Sep 6 by magicdaps10 |
He definetly did!
I was there and seen it with my own eyes and other posters have said the same who were there and it was discussed with my colleagues at the time of the game. |
Funny how the pundits and commentators saw it different?
The BBC posted 4-4-2 on their line up page at kick off.....like I said maybe the view form that box is not the best?
Many said on here Cabango sstarted on the right but he definately started on the left...
We all see things differently | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 08:16 - Sep 6 with 807 views | magicdaps10 |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 08:05 - Sep 6 by vetchonian |
Funny how the pundits and commentators saw it different?
The BBC posted 4-4-2 on their line up page at kick off.....like I said maybe the view form that box is not the best?
Many said on here Cabango sstarted on the right but he definately started on the left...
We all see things differently |
BBC quite regularly post strange formations before, during and after games.
If you were listening on the commentary then you obviously were not at the game but I can assure you without fail that they lined up with a 3 man defence and very quickly moved to a back 4.........its what happened.
Cabango started centrally the game central of a 3 and then obviously changed when the formation change happened....maybe that explains the mix up of where Cabango started.
As I said in one of my previous posts, I might have got the timing of the change wrong but we deffo started a back 3 and swiftly went to a back 4.
The view from the box is a superb view and certainly a better place to see things than watching the TV or listening to someone on the radio. | |
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| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 08:37 - Sep 6 with 791 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| So is the Martinball experiment dead? on 07:45 - Sep 6 by magicdaps10 |
He definetly did!
I was there and seen it with my own eyes and other posters have said the same who were there and it was discussed with my colleagues at the time of the game. |
Nope, you made it up - as you are being told by everyone. | |
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