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England - Chel*** players 19:51 - Mar 23 with 10714 views

Gallagher and Chillwell utterly garbage tonight. Just like Mount and James have been for England in the last couple of years. I know I'm biased, but wtf has a mid table team got two players in this England team for?

Southgate is England's biggest handicap.

Maguire too - needs a new club. Shocking.

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England - Chel*** players on 10:47 - Mar 24 with 2125 views

traininvain

My biggest takeaway from last night is that England lack squad depth to compete in games against top sides without our key players. Chilwell, Konsa, Gallagher, Gordon (to a lesser extent but he’s not Saka), Watkins etc aren’t good enough to replace Shaw, Walker, Saka and Kane.

Brazil had similar injury issues but I was impressed with the players that came in like Guimares, Paqueta and Raphina. It felt like they have stronger squad depth and a genuine world class attacker in Vinicius whilst we were unable to replace two of our best attacking players in Saka and Kane.

We also have an issue in midfield in terms of who starts alongside Rice and Bellingham. My main criticism of Southgate is that Foden continues to look a shadow of his City form in an England shirt and that’s a worry going into the Euros. But I understand why he’s cautious with the double pivot because our defence is shaky.

Still fancy England to go far in the Euros if key players can stay fit but Southgate has a few issues to sort in central midfield and defence. He’ll be gone after the Euros so might as well get behind him and the team but feels a bit like people would rather say ‘I told you so’ if England don’t win the tournament.

[Post edited 24 Mar 10:59]

England - Chel*** players on 10:51 - Mar 24 with 2122 views

Watford_Ranger

England - Chel*** players on 10:21 - Mar 24 by Antti_Heinola

Fair points, but Mainoo, who has been excellent, was only in the squad because of about 6 injuries. He wasin the u21s and hot called up after drop outs. It’s just mad to be beating him with these sticks! I do agree his loyalty to Hendo and Maguire has gone too far. I’d prob take Hendo in a 23 because in any tournament 4-5 players prob won’t play so you need them to be good tram players not sulky moaners, but he’s a way off first pick for me now. To be fair to GS, his favoured first XI is probably:

Pickford
Walker Maguire Stones Shaw
Rice ???
Saka Bellingham Foden
Kane

There’s one spot in there to be filled if all are fit and other than Maguire, i’d find it hard to argue much about that team.

By sticking with Maguire he’s backed himself into a corner where no one is in a position to compete for that spot. It will be our downfall.

I don’t know loads about Tomori but he’s 26 and playing regularly for Milan. Has five caps in nearly five years, most of which time Maguire has been crap.

England - Chel*** players on 11:30 - Mar 24 with 2051 views

BAWHoops

England - Chel* players** on 10:51 - Mar 24 by Watford_Ranger
By sticking with Maguire he’s backed himself into a corner where no one is in a position to compete for that spot. It will be our downfall. I don’t know loads about Tomori but he’s 26 and playing regularly for Milan. Has five caps in nearly five years, most of which time Maguire has been crap.

Every time Tomori plays outside of Italy he looks awful. Gets roasted in Champions League and has looked shaky for England.
MIlan are a big name, but that doesn't mean he's a good player.
Everyone calls for a Maguire replacement but the only one who's come close to usurping him is Guehi and he's injured right now

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England - Chel*** players on 11:55 - Mar 24 with 2012 views

Ned_Kennedys

England - Chel* players** on 11:30 - Mar 24 by BAWHoops
Every time Tomori plays outside of Italy he looks awful. Gets roasted in Champions League and has looked shaky for England. MIlan are a big name, but that doesn't mean he's a good player. Everyone calls for a Maguire replacement but the only one who's come close to usurping him is Guehi and he's injured right now

By sticking with the likes of Maguire, Henderson and Phillips for squad after squad Southgate has blocked the pathways for younger players in their positions to develop for England.

England - Chel*** players on 12:19 - Mar 24 with 1972 views

Watford_Ranger

England - Chel* players** on 11:30 - Mar 24 by BAWHoops
Every time Tomori plays outside of Italy he looks awful. Gets roasted in Champions League and has looked shaky for England. MIlan are a big name, but that doesn't mean he's a good player. Everyone calls for a Maguire replacement but the only one who's come close to usurping him is Guehi and he's injured right now

You’re probably right. Someone deserved a run though in what’s been a problematic position for years and now it’s too late for that for this tournament so he’s pretty much nailed on. Guehi is probably a better example.

England - Chel*** players on 12:24 - Mar 24 with 1960 views

themodfather

chilwell was awful. gallagher did nothing. maguire is a liability all can see bar gareth .
brazil were poor, not a good team and their goal WAS OFFSIDE , paqueta should have seen a red card and their numbers 5 and 15 too! they kicked bellingham to pieces and nothing said.

England - Chel*** players on 12:28 - Mar 24 with 1957 views

traininvain

England - Chel* players** on 11:55 - Mar 24 by Ned_Kennedys
By sticking with the likes of Maguire, Henderson and Phillips for squad after squad Southgate has blocked the pathways for younger players in their positions to develop for England.

The problem comes back to squad depth. If there were obvious replacements, they’d be getting more minutes. But last night we saw more of the squad players like Dunk, Chilwell, Gallagher, Watkins etc and they failed to convince. Who are these younger players whose pathways have been blocked?

Mainoo got 20 minutes last night at the age of 18 following only 15 appearances for Man Utd. Branthwaite will get a chance on Wednesday I’m sure. Southgate has consistently shown that if you’re good enough you’ll get a chance but that’s also balanced against having some continuity which has worked quite well at the last three major tournaments.

People will say that Southgate has never got us over the line to win a tournament but it’s knockout football and unpredictable. Look at Pep who’s widely seen as the best manager of the past 15 years or so and he didn’t win a champions league in 14 years despite managing Barcelona, Bayern and Man City during that period. England are probably one of a few times in the mix but we’re not good enough to expect guaranteed success.

England - Chel*** players on 22:23 - Mar 24 with 1749 views

numptydumpty

England - Chel*** players on 12:28 - Mar 24 by traininvain

Southgate is doing an ok job

But we are often dull and with the attacking potential of the players we have, we should be an incredibly attractive forward thinking and exciting proposition.

Under him though, the tournament results as a whole have been as good as is possible to be.

But we prefer flamboyance which is something Mr Southgate lacks.

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England - Chel*** players on 22:38 - Mar 24 with 1739 views

daveB

England - Chel* players** on 09:04 - Mar 24 by Snipper
If England had had Pep Guardiola as manager since 2020, I honestly think the England would be World and European champions now.

Well yeah he's probably the greatest manager of all time so of course we would have been very close and had a better chance but Southgate's exit from both those tournaments was the English inability to score a penalty when it matters

I find the criticism of last night a bit mad really, he gave a few fringe players like Gallagher, Gordon and Chillwell a chance, they didn't really take it but you learn more from that than playing Henderson, Trippier etc

England will go close this summer imo, anything less than semi finals would be a real disappointment but need the likes of Walker, Stones, Bellingham and Kane to be fit and in great form if we are going to win it

England - Chel*** players on 01:03 - Mar 25 with 1619 views

LazyFan

He did do something clever; he played Watkins against a fast defence to see if Watkins was able to beat them ... we learned he wasn't and won't do it on his own against the top sides. He could have played Toney instead to really test their backline, but that he can save for another day.

I expect him to play Toney against Belgium's defence to really test if Toney can overcome the big CD who are supposed to be able to handle the Toney types. This will really test if Toney is up to it against teams who can counter his aerial and hold up play threat.

Gallagher was poor and not great, but he tried. Chillwell was decent defensively but had zero ideas going forward. The team constantly played it to Chillwell on the left, and it always broke down and went nowhere. We are weak on the left. Maybe Mitchell from Palace could be tried?

Rice looked tired to me, but we saw that Bellingham is world-class. Brazil was lucky to keep 11 on the pitch, in a normal World-cup match they would have had one, if not two of them sent off.

I have no idea why they did not use Foden enough; really bad that they are not using him down the right.

Walker totally dominated Vinícius, so much so that he went to hide in the middle. Never seen that before from Vinícius, and this shows that Walker still has it, despite what Pep says. Gomez is playing well, so he could be a decent replacement. It was noticeable that Vinícius only got some joy when Walker was off the pitch.

When the full England players are back. I would play Manioo instead of Gallagher and Foden on the left, with Rashford to come on later.

I suspect Brasil could not handle Kane or Toney, these types of players they would struggle against, but clearly Watkins is easy meat for them. What we learned is that Watkins should only play against slow defences, where we can break and are faster than the oppo. That's not going to happen against Brazil. For Brazil types, you need a Kane or Toney (we are hopefully about to find out), but Watkins may work against some of the slower backline Euro teams.

At least lamers like Mount are nowhere near the squad now.

zzzzzzzzzz

England - Chel*** players on 01:09 - Mar 25 with 1619 views

SydneyRs

England - Chel*** players on 06:17 - Mar 24 by Lblock

Gareth is weird juxtaposition for me

You can’t really argue with his record
He did rebuild fan and player bonds when he first came in
Holds himself well and seems a decent enough chap

But then you have the Gareth Safegate side of things
He just doesn’t seem to have it in him to do something left field to win the big ones
I’ll never forgive him for that feeling I had walking home from Wembley in the pissin rain as our best ever chance to win a trophy on home soil had been stodged away against a bang average Italy.
He’ll take his favourites in his squad, not those in form…. I will combust when I see Kalvin Phillips name on the list as you just know will happen.
Cannot see us winning anything under him and he’ll be boring the tourists at Old Trafford soon enough

This. People gushed over Italy at the time but they really were bang average and missed consecutive world cups to prove it. Unforgiveable.

England - Chel*** players on 07:54 - Mar 25 with 1485 views

gazza1

You can talk about players but Southgate is the real problem.....we will not win anything with his team selection, his tactics and his attitude to the game. Anyone who thinks he should be the England manager and he is doing Ok need to raise their expectations.

We have enough very good players to be champions, we were so poor against a very average Brazil team on Saturday. Southgate was a pretty limited player and he is a pretty limited England Manager as well.

& BTW, both Chelsea players are not good enough - there are much better players in the Premiership(at LB & midfield) who should be playing ahead of them but Southgate picks them.

[Post edited 25 Mar 7:56]

England - Chel*** players on 08:11 - Mar 25 with 1462 views

Watford_Ranger

England - Chel*** players on 22:38 - Mar 24 by daveB

As one of the wealthiest (maybe the wealthiest) ‘big’ country you could argue we shouldn’t be settling for a mid-table manager. Appreciate we’ve tried a big name and it was a disaster but over the years there have been managers good enough to get this squad over the line. A top club wouldn’t have stuck with him after the fumbles he’s had.

England - Chel*** players on 08:33 - Mar 25 with 1435 views

traininvain

England - Chel* players** on 08:11 - Mar 25 by Watford_Ranger
As one of the wealthiest (maybe the wealthiest) ‘big’ country you could argue we shouldn’t be settling for a mid-table manager. Appreciate we’ve tried a big name and it was a disaster but over the years there have been managers good enough to get this squad over the line. A top club wouldn’t have stuck with him after the fumbles he’s had.

What had Low achieved before taking over at Germany? It took him eight years of near misses before finally winning a major tournament and he was criticised for sticking with players like Klose.

Scaloni had even less experience before becoming Argentina manager and going on to win the Copa America and World Cup. I’d wager that if you listed managers who’ve won a major international tournament over the last 20-30 years, not many of them have done much at club level.

International management is a different kettle of fish to club management. It requires a different skillset in terms of building a happy camp and developing a balanced team/squad that only meets up every few months.

That’s not to say Southgate’s perfect and nailed on to win the Euros but I’d expect England to be there or thereabouts again this summer (much like the last 3 tournaments) and surely that’s progress given the slop that was served up before he became manager.

Btw Man City stuck with Guardiola for years whilst he struggled to get City over the line in the Champions League despite having an inherent advantage over most of the top teams. Ferguson won two champions league titles in over 20 years at Man Utd despite being widely regarded as the best manager of his generation. These top level knockout tournaments are ultra competitive and only one team can win.

[Post edited 25 Mar 8:37]

England - Chel*** players on 08:41 - Mar 25 with 1407 views

gazza1

England - Chel*** players on 22:38 - Mar 24 by daveB

Our inability to win that game was way before the penalties......we were running the match but the Manager decided not to push on and start to play negative stuff. The penalties were all down to the Manager brining players on to take penalties - he should have know better considering he knew the pressures of penalties when he missed an important one himself in a big England match.

Gallagher is just not England level, even Chelsea fans think he is average - Palace standard at best. Chilwell is finished. Gordon I understand but only just. & what about playing Henderson recently - very poor decision indeed (why did he select him??)

Of course England will go close Dave, we are a good team with good players. Going close is not good enough for me, with the players and talent we have we should be winning big tournaments

England - Chel*** players on 09:03 - Mar 25 with 1360 views

gazza1

One further point.....his team selection on Saturday, whilst hindered with injuries, was poor.

Gallagher - not good enough
Maguire - Finished
Chilwell - Finished
Watkins - not good enough

That's more than a third of the team!! Hence why we couldn't beat an average, under strength Brazil team.

England - Chel*** players on 09:33 - Mar 25 with 1312 views

Northernr

I mostly think Southgate gets a lot of unfair press. He's taken us to a final and a semi-final and ok you can easily argue, particularly that final v Italy, that we should have gone on to win, other England managers have had far better squads and particularly strike forces than him to pick from and got nowhere close. You don't tend to win international tournaments playing a wide open, attacking game and his record in tournaments probably justifies his approach, however frustrating it may be.

Just lately though he's done some concerning things for me.

I think this happens to a lot of managers who are fortunate enough to stay in the same job for a long time - you become quite stubborn and stuck in your ways. One of the great things about Alex Ferguson (much as it pained me) is he successfully reinvented himself, his style of play and his formation 4-5 times over the course of his Man Utd reign to keep up with the sport as it moved. I mean FFS he started off competing against Howard Wilkinson and Ron Atkinson, and then ended up against Arsene Wenger and Rafa Benitez, you have to adapt and he did. Southgate, on the contrary, almost seems to be doubling down and down again to show how right he is and how wrong everybody else is. We saw this at the end of Ian Holloway's first stint where he was doing things like picking Gallen in central midfield and stuff like that.

One of the good things he did when he took over was make England more like a club squad where it's the same group of players, and it's really hard to get into, but it's also really hard to fall out of. That way you foster team spirit and the players are more relaxed and so on. It's how Germany and Spain operated at their peak, whereas England would just pick whatever player was having a hot streak at the time and you had caps handed out all over the place. This is good, but he's now doubling down and down and down again to the point where he's stubbornly refusing to not pick cloggers like Maguire, despite as Gaz says above them clearly not being good enough.

With this he's contradicting himself. He'll defend some players out of form, but then you ask why Raheem Sterling isn't picked and he blames form. (I don't think Sterling should be in by the way, but you can't have one rule for one and one for another it's lethal in management). You've had Tomori and Loftus Cheek playing out of their skin in Serie A at various points recently - not interested. But Ben Chilwell and Conor Gallagher, who are playing badly for a bad Chelsea team, no problem.

The Henderson thing is an absolute debacle, it should have been made very clear to him that moving to Saudi Arabia ends his England career straight away. Mainly because it's a fcking Conference-standard nonsense league, and he's 33 anyway, but also the politics which Southgate has always been very hot on but then suddenly doesn't care about because he's desperate to still pick Wor Jordan. Going to Ajax to see his debut there on a day Newcastle were playing Luton in the Premier League with 14 English players on the pitch... that's just being a contrary, stubborn dick for the sake of being a contrary, stubborn dick.

The Ben White thing isn't far behind it. A player who has played for, and excelled, under Marcelo Bielsa, Mikel Arteta, Graham Potter, one of the best defenders in the country, but Steve Holland doesn't like his attitude to football so nah.

We're now in danger of having a couple of generational talents in Bellingham and Foden, but mis-using them because we're trying to crowbar other inferior favourites into the team at the same time.

Maybe we'll win it this summer, and then you'd have to look back on him as one of England's greatest ever managers - semi-final, final, wins a tournament. But it feels to me like he wanted to resign after the last one, got talked out of it, and that was a mistake.

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England - Chel*** players on 09:44 - Mar 25 with 1289 views

derbyhoop

England - Chel* players** on 06:59 - Mar 24 by HAYESBOY
Under Southgate we have played top 10 teams 25 times. We have won 4 of those games.

That's England down to a tee. They beat the mid ranking teams but as soon as they come up against a top side they get found out.
Defensively, too many weak links. Up front, over reliant on Kane.

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England - Chel*** players on 09:44 - Mar 25 with 1285 views

gazza1

England - Chel*** players on 09:33 - Mar 25 by Northernr

Norf, Unfair press......he is poor Norf. I can imagine him being here getting the results he gets in big tournaments, scrapping through matches, poor against top teams, loosing in semi & finals when we should be winning.

I dread to think what you would be writing!!!

England - Chel*** players on 09:45 - Mar 25 with 1286 views

Northernr

England - Chel* players** on 09:44 - Mar 25 by gazza1
Norf, Unfair press......he is poor Norf. I can imagine him being here getting the results he gets in big tournaments, scrapping through matches, poor against top teams, loosing in semi & finals when we should be winning. I dread to think what you would be writing!!!

Well I'd be writing that ^^^
It's not exactly a positive post!

England - Chel*** players on 09:50 - Mar 25 with 1263 views

CamberleyR

England - Chel*** players on 09:33 - Mar 25 by Northernr

Out of interest Clive, where do you think Bellingham should be played? I thought this season for Real Madrid he was being played centrally further forward than he had been for Dortmund? Do you think he should be alongside Rice as an '8' to Rice's '6'?

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England - Chel*** players on 10:02 - Mar 25 with 1238 views

Northernr

England - Chel* players** on 09:50 - Mar 25 by CamberleyR
Out of interest Clive, where do you think Bellingham should be played? I thought this season for Real Madrid he was being played centrally further forward than he had been for Dortmund? Do you think he should be alongside Rice as an '8' to Rice's '6'?

Probably yes, but then we come back to the manager because in Southgate's system that basically makes him a defensive midfielder which would be a waste. Personally with the players we've got I don't think you need two of those defensive pivots at the bottom of the midfield, you can have Rice, Bellingham at 'eight' just controlling the whole game everything through him and then Foden where he prefers to play. But in Southgate's system those two midfielders are basically defensive, which would be a waste of him.

England - Chel*** players on 10:14 - Mar 25 with 1192 views

daveB

England - Chel*** players on 08:41 - Mar 25 by gazza1

That was partly the players dropped off as well in that final, not all on the manager but ultimately if Saka, Sancho and Rashford score their penalties we win and if Kane scores his in the World Cup we could have beaten France

I don't dispute he's made mistakes and is far from perfect but it's very fine line with England and will be again this summer. Southgate does manage tournaments very well, he's yet to show he can get us over the line to win something and I'd agree I'm not sure he will do that but I'm not overly convinced another manager would either.

As for Henderson Saturday was probably the best game he's had for a while as his replacements were so bad that probably gets him in the squad

England - Chel*** players on 10:15 - Mar 25 with 1188 views

TheChef

England - Chel*** players on 10:47 - Mar 24 by traininvain

[Post edited 24 Mar 10:59]

I have mixed feelings about Southgate but when he does go I'm curious who replaces him, and whether that person actually does any better.

We're going to Wembley tomorrow night but my entertainment expectations are fairly low!

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England - Chel*** players on 10:25 - Mar 25 with 1173 views

daveB

England - Chel*** players on 10:02 - Mar 25 by Northernr

Thing is with Bellingham he's not played what central midfield position all season and is one of the best players in the world at the moment playing further forward so if Southgate did play him in a midfield 2 with Rice and it goes wrong wouldn't the argument be won't don't you play him further forward where he plays for his club.

I'm hoping Mainoo gets a go tomorrow and does well, a midfield of him, Rice and Bellingham is quite exciting with possibility of Trent or Maddison coming in as cover. Gallagher has been quite good this season from what I've seen but was poor at the weekend and struggle to see him starting games for England

The 2 defensive midfield players thing is due to how deep Kane drops so you don't want a number 10 in the area Kane plays in and the midfield is a bit deeper to start with one of them breaking past Kane, usually Bellingham in recent years but by him playing that role for Madrid he is a lot better at it and can take advantage of what Kane does a lot better than what he did before so i think we'll see Bellingham used in that 10 role a lot more going forward

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