| Millwall fans. 17:35 - Dec 5 with 71525 views | Paddyhoops |
They booed the players loudly as they took the knee.
What a classy bunch they are.
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| Millwall fans. on 14:09 - Dec 8 with 1835 views | QPR_Nippon |
| Millwall fans. on 14:02 - Dec 8 by Antti_Heinola |
Really don't want to wade into this discussion, but one thing I would say is that a large part of the anti-racist movement in this country is not really about abuse, be it verbal or physical. It's about everyday experience, a deeper racism embedded in society that is not even necessarily conscious racism. The example mentioned many times here is the number of black coaches and managers in the English game. Steve McQueen has talked about how when he filmed his latest project in the UK finding black actors was not difficult - but finding a crew that was more representative was extremely difficult, almost impossible. Don't know if you have kids, but have a look at how many kids books have black characters or are about black characters or written or designed by black writers or illustrators. I can tell you - it is very, very, very few. And it's certainly not representative of this nation. I've said this before, but look around at our home games when we have fans - it's not representative of London, is it? It's better than it was 25 years ago, but walk about in Shepherd's Bush and then walk into the KPFS and there's a marked difference.
I don't think publishers, football chairmen or TV companies sit there thinking 'I'm only employing whites'. It is, in that buzzword for this year, more an unconscious bias. It is far deeper issue than just 'tolerance' or not shouting abuse. I think what happened over the last few years was that shouting racist abuse at football (at most clubs) became socially unacceptable. But then over the last couple of years, there was a definite increase. That shows that attitudes never really went away, they were just in hiding, kept indoors. And now I fear they're being encouraged out again under a guise of a reaction against 'wokeness', or calling it 'politics' or 'another opinion'.
You know, Millwall fans embracing their own black players means absolutely nothing. Out and out Chelsea racists have published stuff (can't remember where I read it now, years ago) about how when they signed Desailly, they booed him like anything, until they sw how tough he was, and then they decided he was 'just like them' and took them to their loveable hearts. And on top of that, I think it's fair to say that no one ever said it was all Millwall fans. Clearly, they're not a fanbase who all think alike, anymore than our fanbase thinks alike (as this thread amply demonstrates!). [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 14:05]
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Great post. |  | | |
| Millwall fans. on 14:11 - Dec 8 with 1830 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Millwall fans. on 13:51 - Dec 8 by QPR_Jim |
So many questions.
Did being white in Jamaica actually disadvantage you or was it just some hurtful names? Were you more likely to get stopped by police for example?
"But anyway, who gives a toss what people who actually live this stuff think" - I'm confused should I care about what you think or what the black players who want to take the knee think?
Do you think everyone who disagrees with you is middle class, a marxist or both? |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 12:06]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Millwall fans. on 14:14 - Dec 8 with 1819 views | E17hoop |
| Millwall fans. on 13:14 - Dec 8 by Northernr |
It won't be lasting much longer if it continues its descent into a slanging match and accusing people of being this and that.
Can people just grow the fck up and shut the fck up? Please. |
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| Millwall fans. on 14:15 - Dec 8 with 1812 views | E17hoop |
| Millwall fans. on 14:14 - Dec 8 by E17hoop |
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| Millwall fans. on 14:16 - Dec 8 with 1809 views | E17hoop |
| Millwall fans. on 14:15 - Dec 8 by E17hoop |
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| Millwall fans. on 14:18 - Dec 8 with 1786 views | E17hoop |
| Millwall fans. on 14:16 - Dec 8 by E17hoop |
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| Millwall fans. on 14:21 - Dec 8 with 1770 views | Konk |
| Millwall fans. on 10:57 - Dec 8 by SheffieldHoop |
Quite a few of my mates done this, started shopping in exclusively black businesses, driving up to Luton and all sorts to visit specific businesses that made a point of supporting BLM. It effectively was a boycott of non-black owned businesses for a time.
All of this quickly changed when they realised it was becomming a lot more expensive than their usual shops, though. |
I understand what you're saying on this mate, and I think you make a lot of fair points generally, but we'll have to agree to disagree! Even if you think it's misguided, I still think it's coming from a positive place; it's not Berlin 1933, with a boycott promoted/enforced through hate, to harm and further stigmatise a particular section of the population. And it's a bit of a moot point, anyway, because if there was a boycott of non-black owned businesses, then most black Britons would have to put some serious miles in to use the majority of shops, leisure activities and services that you might expect to use over even a month; if it were even possible at all.
Anyhow, interesting to read your views on this - food for thought.
(Never lived in Fulham btw - before leaving London for Bristol, my local shops were generally family-owned, immigrant-run shops on scruffy high streets. So, it wasn't all Gail's bread and cheese from Neal's Yard...) |  |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| Millwall fans. on 14:23 - Dec 8 with 1762 views | terryb |
This is far from the only message board that has problems with this subject.
On QPR Report, which had a very low member base to start with, five of the most frequent posters have now declared that they will no longer use the site.
Has this been the reaction throughout football, or are we one of the few clubs with supporters that care about the issue? | | | |
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| Millwall fans. on 14:38 - Dec 8 with 1706 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Millwall fans. on 14:02 - Dec 8 by Antti_Heinola |
Really don't want to wade into this discussion, but one thing I would say is that a large part of the anti-racist movement in this country is not really about abuse, be it verbal or physical. It's about everyday experience, a deeper racism embedded in society that is not even necessarily conscious racism. The example mentioned many times here is the number of black coaches and managers in the English game. Steve McQueen has talked about how when he filmed his latest project in the UK finding black actors was not difficult - but finding a crew that was more representative was extremely difficult, almost impossible. Don't know if you have kids, but have a look at how many kids books have black characters or are about black characters or written or designed by black writers or illustrators. I can tell you - it is very, very, very few. And it's certainly not representative of this nation. I've said this before, but look around at our home games when we have fans - it's not representative of London, is it? It's better than it was 25 years ago, but walk about in Shepherd's Bush and then walk into the KPFS and there's a marked difference.
I don't think publishers, football chairmen or TV companies sit there thinking 'I'm only employing whites'. It is, in that buzzword for this year, more an unconscious bias. It is far deeper issue than just 'tolerance' or not shouting abuse. I think what happened over the last few years was that shouting racist abuse at football (at most clubs) became socially unacceptable. But then over the last couple of years, there was a definite increase. That shows that attitudes never really went away, they were just in hiding, kept indoors. And now I fear they're being encouraged out again under a guise of a reaction against 'wokeness', or calling it 'politics' or 'another opinion'.
You know, Millwall fans embracing their own black players means absolutely nothing. Out and out Chelsea racists have published stuff (can't remember where I read it now, years ago) about how when they signed Desailly, they booed him like anything, until they sw how tough he was, and then they decided he was 'just like them' and took them to their loveable hearts. And on top of that, I think it's fair to say that no one ever said it was all Millwall fans. Clearly, they're not a fanbase who all think alike, anymore than our fanbase thinks alike (as this thread amply demonstrates!). [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 14:05]
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. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 12:00]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Millwall fans. on 14:48 - Dec 8 with 1678 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Millwall fans. on 14:38 - Dec 8 by SheffieldHoop |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 12:00]
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I’m not calling you a liar but there is no H block in Loftus Road. |  | | |
| Millwall fans. on 14:48 - Dec 8 with 1681 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Millwall fans. on 13:56 - Dec 8 by SheffieldHoop |
Not sure 2020 Britain is really that comparable with 50's/60's America. Or even Modern America. I've been across the pond a few times in the last couple of years and understand the case for BLM there to a far greater degree than I do here.
I'm also Irish.....And Scottish, English, Argentinian......Technically. But really, when I travel for example, I'm just British. And I'm happy with that. |
Not seeking to compare, just don't agree with your specific point that "all protest movements that go around under the guise of ending inequality, division, racism actually end up creating more division". |  |
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| Millwall fans. on 14:48 - Dec 8 with 1681 views | DannytheR |
| Millwall fans. on 14:38 - Dec 8 by SheffieldHoop |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 12:00]
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Ben/Doc Brown is a mate. I'm sure he'll be tickled at the thought of being a more famous childrens' author than JK Rowling, especially by way of proving racism doesn't really exist in Britain anymore. |  | | |
| Millwall fans. on 14:52 - Dec 8 with 1672 views | Konk |
| Millwall fans. on 14:48 - Dec 8 by BrianMcCarthy |
Not seeking to compare, just don't agree with your specific point that "all protest movements that go around under the guise of ending inequality, division, racism actually end up creating more division". |
Yeah, I'm struggling with that. If you hadn't had the Bristol Bus boycott, for instance, you wouldn't have had 1965 Race Relations Act. Without the Suffragette movement, would women have won the vote? Gay Rights? Surely there are loads of examples of protest movements against inequality forcing through change that then became widely accepted? | |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| Millwall fans. on 14:55 - Dec 8 with 1665 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Millwall fans. on 14:21 - Dec 8 by Konk |
I understand what you're saying on this mate, and I think you make a lot of fair points generally, but we'll have to agree to disagree! Even if you think it's misguided, I still think it's coming from a positive place; it's not Berlin 1933, with a boycott promoted/enforced through hate, to harm and further stigmatise a particular section of the population. And it's a bit of a moot point, anyway, because if there was a boycott of non-black owned businesses, then most black Britons would have to put some serious miles in to use the majority of shops, leisure activities and services that you might expect to use over even a month; if it were even possible at all.
Anyhow, interesting to read your views on this - food for thought.
(Never lived in Fulham btw - before leaving London for Bristol, my local shops were generally family-owned, immigrant-run shops on scruffy high streets. So, it wasn't all Gail's bread and cheese from Neal's Yard...) |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 12:06]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Millwall fans. on 14:57 - Dec 8 with 1650 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Millwall fans. on 14:38 - Dec 8 by SheffieldHoop |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 12:00]
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Mate.
No one is saying you are a racist.
No one is saying our club is racist.
All I was doing was try to pick some examples to demonstrate different forms / levels of racism in society. I'm not saying QPR is racist because we don't exactly match the same demographic as Shepherd's Bush, of course not. But our own DOF has talked many times about how QPR as a club did not feel welcoming when he was growing up and how it has to be pro-active in the local area now to show that it IS welcoming (which it does do). But ask Les if he thinks there's more to be done by the club and he won't say, 'nah mate, done all we can, it's all cool now.'
I'm not sure what to make of your final para, you've completely lost me there. I'm not really sure what you're arguing about at all, really. Are you saying because the first children's author you can think of is mixed race, there's not a problem in publishing? Honestly, you've lost me. |  |
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| Millwall fans. on 14:58 - Dec 8 with 1647 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Millwall fans. on 14:55 - Dec 8 by SheffieldHoop |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 12:06]
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You certainly haven't upset anyone. I've found your posts interesting. It's a cracking forum, this - so much info to ponder. | |
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| Millwall fans. on 14:58 - Dec 8 with 1642 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Millwall fans. on 14:48 - Dec 8 by DannytheR |
Ben/Doc Brown is a mate. I'm sure he'll be tickled at the thought of being a more famous childrens' author than JK Rowling, especially by way of proving racism doesn't really exist in Britain anymore. |
This is funny because if you knew his work you'd realise I'm saying stuff he was saying in the early 00s [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 12:07]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Millwall fans. on 15:00 - Dec 8 with 1624 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Millwall fans. on 14:58 - Dec 8 by BrianMcCarthy |
You certainly haven't upset anyone. I've found your posts interesting. It's a cracking forum, this - so much info to ponder. |
Clive has deleted it now but he called me a racist because he couldn’t tell me what a Marxist is.
I don’t think he’s contributing in good faith Brian. | | | |
| Millwall fans. on 15:05 - Dec 8 with 1610 views | DannytheR |
| Millwall fans. on 14:58 - Dec 8 by SheffieldHoop |
This is funny because if you knew his work you'd realise I'm saying stuff he was saying in the early 00s [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 12:07]
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Thanks mate. Congratulations on having a girlfriend. | | | |
| Millwall fans. on 15:06 - Dec 8 with 1602 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Millwall fans. on 14:57 - Dec 8 by Antti_Heinola |
Mate.
No one is saying you are a racist.
No one is saying our club is racist.
All I was doing was try to pick some examples to demonstrate different forms / levels of racism in society. I'm not saying QPR is racist because we don't exactly match the same demographic as Shepherd's Bush, of course not. But our own DOF has talked many times about how QPR as a club did not feel welcoming when he was growing up and how it has to be pro-active in the local area now to show that it IS welcoming (which it does do). But ask Les if he thinks there's more to be done by the club and he won't say, 'nah mate, done all we can, it's all cool now.'
I'm not sure what to make of your final para, you've completely lost me there. I'm not really sure what you're arguing about at all, really. Are you saying because the first children's author you can think of is mixed race, there's not a problem in publishing? Honestly, you've lost me. |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 12:05]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Millwall fans. on 15:08 - Dec 8 with 1598 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Millwall fans. on 15:00 - Dec 8 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Clive has deleted it now but he called me a racist because he couldn’t tell me what a Marxist is.
I don’t think he’s contributing in good faith Brian. |
Ya, I missed that, Baz.
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| Millwall fans. on 15:08 - Dec 8 with 1596 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Millwall fans. on 14:48 - Dec 8 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I’m not calling you a liar but there is no H block in Loftus Road. |
Fck me, I must've been sold a dodgy season ticket. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Millwall fans. on 15:08 - Dec 8 with 1595 views | hamptonhillhoop |
| Millwall fans. on 14:48 - Dec 8 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I’m not calling you a liar but there is no H block in Loftus Road. |
I sit in H block. Thats my contribution to this thread [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 15:09]
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| Millwall fans. on 15:09 - Dec 8 with 1584 views | Boston |
| Millwall fans. on 14:21 - Dec 8 by Konk |
I understand what you're saying on this mate, and I think you make a lot of fair points generally, but we'll have to agree to disagree! Even if you think it's misguided, I still think it's coming from a positive place; it's not Berlin 1933, with a boycott promoted/enforced through hate, to harm and further stigmatise a particular section of the population. And it's a bit of a moot point, anyway, because if there was a boycott of non-black owned businesses, then most black Britons would have to put some serious miles in to use the majority of shops, leisure activities and services that you might expect to use over even a month; if it were even possible at all.
Anyhow, interesting to read your views on this - food for thought.
(Never lived in Fulham btw - before leaving London for Bristol, my local shops were generally family-owned, immigrant-run shops on scruffy high streets. So, it wasn't all Gail's bread and cheese from Neal's Yard...) |
I was under the impression the majority of shops in urban areas were owned by brown skinned people, certainly are in north and west London. Can’t think I ever really thought about or cared who owned the newsagents when I lived in town, just give me reasonable prices, prompt service and a smile when I pop in for the current bun and twenty Piccadilly. | |
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| Millwall fans. on 15:11 - Dec 8 with 1565 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Millwall fans. on 15:05 - Dec 8 by DannytheR |
Thanks mate. Congratulations on having a girlfriend. |
For just 2.99 a month I'll explain how you can too on my new Podcast | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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