Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ 10:11 - Sep 23 with 9663 views | Blue_Castello | Well the main reason for posting is that when we get a good result there are hardly any posts but if we lose it's totally the opposite, so congratulations to the Manager and the whole squad for a great team away performance, it should not be underestimated how important these results are for rebuilding team morale. If we conveniently forget the Watford game which is best for all concerned then the team performance has become progressively better, it's like night and day comparing to last season. That was a result built by Ainsworth getting the right players on board for crucial positions in the team, having a very good understanding of team building and the components required, building a work ethic into the whole squad and then ensuring that a minimum level of commitment is always displayed. It just feels some people forget what a shi**y job Ainsworth inherited because of varying factors which are well documented, mostly the totally demotivated individuals in the squad which had been built by Beale and Ferdinand. Last night we took on a Birmingham team who had significant investment over the last 12 months, mainly funded by the Bellinghams (plural) transfers that presumably keeps them within FFP limits, they have a strong squad this year which could well challenge at the top. They beat us to the signing of Lisa Stansfield presumably because they paid a sign on fee and are paying all or most of his wages whereas we were limited to only Free agent signings to keep within FFP. The Free agent signings have all hit the ground running and lifted the squad to a minimum level that is required to compete in the Championship. Now this is not just supposed to be all Happy Clappy but Ainsworth deserves some credit after reading plenty of negatives last week. [Post edited 23 Sep 2023 11:40]
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Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 19:02 - Sep 23 with 2053 views | Superhoops2808 |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 18:46 - Sep 23 by DejR_vu | Blimey, did I miss something? Did we win a trophy last night? The last time I looked we had won two of eight, had eight points and sit 18th in the table with only three clubs with a worse goal difference. We got a decent point last night against a team that hadn’t won in four. The fact there is so little negative stuff speaks volumes for how understanding the demographic on here is imo. Surely, digging out posters with a different opinion to you, for no reason, is the very definition of trolling. Just because you consider a point at Birmingham as something to celebrate and others, who haven’t even commented, perhaps don’t, doesn’t give anyone the right to goad them. This is a message board, for people to give opinions, none are more or less valid than others imo. The fact you’ve had a dig, after a result that you’re happy with, that no one has complained about, presumably looking to bring the mood down, says more about you than the ‘trolls’ imo. |
Missed the point Never mind can't be bothered to explain to you | | | |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 19:18 - Sep 23 with 2026 views | DejR_vu |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 19:02 - Sep 23 by Superhoops2808 | Missed the point Never mind can't be bothered to explain to you |
😂 Yeah, right. Have a good evening | |
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Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 20:48 - Sep 23 with 1858 views | Wegerles_Stairs |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 13:24 - Sep 23 by CLAREMAN1995 | First of all its a Friday night game and a lot of posters are still away I suspect . Everybody on here is entitled to their opinion good or bad as we are all QPR supporters . Nobody really wants us to go down but if we cannot score goals we will not survive IMO. Nobody can question the heart and passion we defend with but our keeper has stood on his head when we get points and when he has an off night we lose its pretty simple right now. What happened to our team that used to create lots of clear chances and rip shots from all over the place its MIA and having a couple of chances per game will not be enough to keep us . I wish that thread Just Back was permanent it gives very valuable insight to what is really going on game to game instead of TV coverage and commentary |
Two points out of nine. Would have lost last night but for Field's clearance and Bergovic's performance. Yes, the effort was certainly there last night but let's take the rose-tinted glasses off for a moment. Newly promoted Ipswich are second; Plymouth scored six against Norwich today. I doubt we could score six goals in a month. We're fighting relegation with one win in 19 at home - no illusions. | | | |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 21:18 - Sep 23 with 1839 views | numptydumpty | Yes agree and 37 likes for post for you Op is relevant as most are behind the new regime and have been impressed with the progress made. Yes there will always be the doom and gloom merchants who can't understand why Dykes isn't rivalling Haaland in terms of goals but it is sad that as shown on this thread people are constantly justifying their permanently negative outlooks.because everything isn't in place. We have had to get rid of 10 to 12 players, most of whom were problematic. We have had no money to spend but recruited a very strong and experienced spine, which deserves recognition and credit but still you get a few replies that say the jury is still out. With QPR, we have to savour the decent results because there are rarely consistent great times with our great club. There are some that just enjoy a good whinge and then justify their half empty viewpoints. Glad they are few and far between. Likewise reiterating a decent job done so far by Ainsworth and Dobson. Onwards and upwards boys. All well and good. | |
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Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 21:21 - Sep 23 with 1787 views | stainrods_elbow |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 21:18 - Sep 23 by numptydumpty | Yes agree and 37 likes for post for you Op is relevant as most are behind the new regime and have been impressed with the progress made. Yes there will always be the doom and gloom merchants who can't understand why Dykes isn't rivalling Haaland in terms of goals but it is sad that as shown on this thread people are constantly justifying their permanently negative outlooks.because everything isn't in place. We have had to get rid of 10 to 12 players, most of whom were problematic. We have had no money to spend but recruited a very strong and experienced spine, which deserves recognition and credit but still you get a few replies that say the jury is still out. With QPR, we have to savour the decent results because there are rarely consistent great times with our great club. There are some that just enjoy a good whinge and then justify their half empty viewpoints. Glad they are few and far between. Likewise reiterating a decent job done so far by Ainsworth and Dobson. Onwards and upwards boys. All well and good. |
Happy clapper! | |
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Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 22:15 - Sep 23 with 1698 views | Wegerles_Stairs |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 21:18 - Sep 23 by numptydumpty | Yes agree and 37 likes for post for you Op is relevant as most are behind the new regime and have been impressed with the progress made. Yes there will always be the doom and gloom merchants who can't understand why Dykes isn't rivalling Haaland in terms of goals but it is sad that as shown on this thread people are constantly justifying their permanently negative outlooks.because everything isn't in place. We have had to get rid of 10 to 12 players, most of whom were problematic. We have had no money to spend but recruited a very strong and experienced spine, which deserves recognition and credit but still you get a few replies that say the jury is still out. With QPR, we have to savour the decent results because there are rarely consistent great times with our great club. There are some that just enjoy a good whinge and then justify their half empty viewpoints. Glad they are few and far between. Likewise reiterating a decent job done so far by Ainsworth and Dobson. Onwards and upwards boys. All well and good. |
It's not black and white. People can actually get behind the team while being less positive about our prospects. We will go down if we don't score goals. Our xG is 24th in the league, as is our average possession - with three points for a win, that's only going to end one way unfortunately. | | | |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 23:18 - Sep 23 with 1667 views | numptydumpty |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 22:15 - Sep 23 by Wegerles_Stairs | It's not black and white. People can actually get behind the team while being less positive about our prospects. We will go down if we don't score goals. Our xG is 24th in the league, as is our average possession - with three points for a win, that's only going to end one way unfortunately. |
Extremely negative attitude | |
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Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 23:26 - Sep 23 with 1660 views | numptydumpty |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 21:21 - Sep 23 by stainrods_elbow | Happy clapper! |
Will allow yourself to wallow in your own misery Sire !!! Better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all. | |
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Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 00:43 - Sep 24 with 1592 views | DejR_vu |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 21:18 - Sep 23 by numptydumpty | Yes agree and 37 likes for post for you Op is relevant as most are behind the new regime and have been impressed with the progress made. Yes there will always be the doom and gloom merchants who can't understand why Dykes isn't rivalling Haaland in terms of goals but it is sad that as shown on this thread people are constantly justifying their permanently negative outlooks.because everything isn't in place. We have had to get rid of 10 to 12 players, most of whom were problematic. We have had no money to spend but recruited a very strong and experienced spine, which deserves recognition and credit but still you get a few replies that say the jury is still out. With QPR, we have to savour the decent results because there are rarely consistent great times with our great club. There are some that just enjoy a good whinge and then justify their half empty viewpoints. Glad they are few and far between. Likewise reiterating a decent job done so far by Ainsworth and Dobson. Onwards and upwards boys. All well and good. |
Not sure I agree with your definition of ‘sad’ numpty. What I do find sad is the state of the club and that a section of the support base accept it so willingly, to the extent that anyone with a more critical view is accused of being a troll for not being negative after a half reasonable result. That’s why we end up with a fans’ forum that someone most people on here respect cited as bizarre in tone, given the last 12 months. If you feel positive after a point at Birmingham, leaving us 18th, with two wins in eight, nine if we include the cup defeat, and a poor goal difference, one win at home in 19, because the players are now doing the basics, great, good for you, but why do you and some others find it so difficult to accept not everyone is quite so easily pleased? Why is your opinion so important that you feel the need to call out others with a different view? You positive types are very quick to be negative about anyone perceived to be less positive than yourselves. You’ve got the club you deserve. | |
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Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 07:39 - Sep 24 with 1476 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 00:43 - Sep 24 by DejR_vu | Not sure I agree with your definition of ‘sad’ numpty. What I do find sad is the state of the club and that a section of the support base accept it so willingly, to the extent that anyone with a more critical view is accused of being a troll for not being negative after a half reasonable result. That’s why we end up with a fans’ forum that someone most people on here respect cited as bizarre in tone, given the last 12 months. If you feel positive after a point at Birmingham, leaving us 18th, with two wins in eight, nine if we include the cup defeat, and a poor goal difference, one win at home in 19, because the players are now doing the basics, great, good for you, but why do you and some others find it so difficult to accept not everyone is quite so easily pleased? Why is your opinion so important that you feel the need to call out others with a different view? You positive types are very quick to be negative about anyone perceived to be less positive than yourselves. You’ve got the club you deserve. |
I’m confused, are you against digging out posters or not? | | | |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 10:17 - Sep 24 with 1315 views | Blue_Castello | Well in my mind I posted something that was congratulating the management team, not saying that all our problems are solved and we will have a good season, just reread the post in case I mislead people. Like many during the Summer I knew we were in big trouble after watching last Seasons displays, we were nailed on for relegation if Ainsworth couldn't improve the team spirit and work ethic, lose a number of players from the squad and replace them with characters who will become team leaders and set an example to the rest of the squad, so for me that part has been a success. There's such a long way to go in improving our play around the final third which will be crucial in improving our home form and getting the results needed to keep us away from relegation. Like others on this thread I know we are a massive work in progress I never once said we were the finished article but there's nothing wrong in celebrating the improvement in team performance which is grinding us out results. Like most of the other people on this Forum I watch the Championship highlights as well as going to home games, it's obvious we have a long way to go to achieve free flowing football that was displayed by some teams this weekend. What I haven't lost sight of is the mess that Ainsworth inherited and that its been a really tough task to turn it around, in an ideal world we want a young squad like Sunderland with their energy and commitment but that takes time to build, it's Ainsworths predecessors that we have to thank for the squad debacle. [Post edited 24 Sep 2023 10:18]
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Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 10:26 - Sep 24 with 1297 views | SouthAfricanRanger | Fantastic posts Blue C. Spot on. And whilst lots of positive comments from many, unfortunately some negative comments from those easy to see by reading, whose default it seems to be negative. That’s more easier to do than write a post that is positive yet pragmatic, so well done again. | |
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Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 10:30 - Sep 24 with 1290 views | SouthAfricanRanger |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 13:24 - Sep 23 by CLAREMAN1995 | First of all its a Friday night game and a lot of posters are still away I suspect . Everybody on here is entitled to their opinion good or bad as we are all QPR supporters . Nobody really wants us to go down but if we cannot score goals we will not survive IMO. Nobody can question the heart and passion we defend with but our keeper has stood on his head when we get points and when he has an off night we lose its pretty simple right now. What happened to our team that used to create lots of clear chances and rip shots from all over the place its MIA and having a couple of chances per game will not be enough to keep us . I wish that thread Just Back was permanent it gives very valuable insight to what is really going on game to game instead of TV coverage and commentary |
Oops- thumbs down by mistake Clarenan.Aplogies | |
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Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 10:34 - Sep 24 with 1280 views | francisbowles |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 15:03 - Sep 23 by stainrods_elbow | It's not more intensity at home that's needed, I don't think - we certainly came on strong vs the Swans, and could, and probably should, have won it at the end - but more quality, creativity and clinicality. Watford and, I guess, Sunderland apart (though I agree with those who have criticised the (lack of) intelligent game plan after the red card, we've certainly tightened up defensively - take those two results out, and we've only conceded five goals in six games - but equally, and more worryingly to me, we've only managed seven in eight. Much as I like him and want to like him, Armstrong's miss on Tuesday was frankly scary at this level, and I only see Dykes, however brilliantly game-saving and unlucky he was in the last two games, making somewhere around 10 or 11 at best. If he gets injured again and only able to appear for Scotland, we're in the doudou. A fit and firing Willock would be a great help, but he remains an enigma wrapped in a riddle, while the other half of their formerly dazzling double-act, our electric Chair, may run himself into the ground by the spring at the rate he's started. In sum, our team-spiritedness and resilience has certainly started to coalesce, our spine is indubitably stiffer, but the squad remains troublingly thin in places, two or three are still below their best or learning their trade, and our goalscoring is a massive concern. While GA is right that a couple of games might have yielded a couple more points, it's also right that Begovic has been keeping us in games, and did so again at Brum. Personally, I also feel less than convinced we have enough sophistication and cleverness in our game and worry the 'direct' style favoured by this management team will too often fall short. It won't be 6th, it might be 12th, but it'll probably be 16th at best. [Post edited 23 Sep 2023 21:23]
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From how it felt towards the end of last season and in the summer, I will be satisfied, this season only, with anything above 22nd. Very good post btw. | | | |
Well done Gareth on 10:49 - Sep 24 with 1243 views | RsinWales |
Well done Gareth on 13:56 - Sep 23 by ted_hendrix | I'm not convinced yet either, I didn't think at the time that GA was the right appointment and I still can't watch or listen to his after match analysis, It's not personal it's how I see It. I get and understand his passion for the club and I admire that, in fact I can't think of another Maanager we've had who spoke about the club like that. Last night I got my score prediction wrong yet again, I'm still lacking In confidence with the squad we've got and some times our tactics so on reflection maybe I ought to let It go and relax a bit, maybe---just maybe we will In fact be okay this season. At this stage of the season though I find It difficult to go patting people on the head and saying 'well done' We've achieved nothing yet but yes It appears that we're heading In the right direction thankfully. |
I don't totally disagree with what you are saying, but I think I look at this in a relativistic way. In pre-season I was coming to the view that we were going to sink into League One without a whimper. Last season was so bad, that I couldn't see any way of us staying up, given that there was no budget to strengthen a clearly weak and uncaring set of players (with exceptions). After the thumpings at Oxford and Watford, I was convinced my worst fears were coming to fruition. Two of my sons are Liverpool supporters and like to come along to some R's games with me (and the one son who had the sense to follow his dad's team). They both commented on the commitment they saw and the infectious nature of GA's geeing up of the away end after the final whistle. We are not out of the woods, but I certainly have a lot more hope and pride in the team than I did a few weeks ago. | | | |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 10:53 - Sep 24 with 1224 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 10:17 - Sep 24 by Blue_Castello | Well in my mind I posted something that was congratulating the management team, not saying that all our problems are solved and we will have a good season, just reread the post in case I mislead people. Like many during the Summer I knew we were in big trouble after watching last Seasons displays, we were nailed on for relegation if Ainsworth couldn't improve the team spirit and work ethic, lose a number of players from the squad and replace them with characters who will become team leaders and set an example to the rest of the squad, so for me that part has been a success. There's such a long way to go in improving our play around the final third which will be crucial in improving our home form and getting the results needed to keep us away from relegation. Like others on this thread I know we are a massive work in progress I never once said we were the finished article but there's nothing wrong in celebrating the improvement in team performance which is grinding us out results. Like most of the other people on this Forum I watch the Championship highlights as well as going to home games, it's obvious we have a long way to go to achieve free flowing football that was displayed by some teams this weekend. What I haven't lost sight of is the mess that Ainsworth inherited and that its been a really tough task to turn it around, in an ideal world we want a young squad like Sunderland with their energy and commitment but that takes time to build, it's Ainsworths predecessors that we have to thank for the squad debacle. [Post edited 24 Sep 2023 10:18]
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Good post BC, My posts weren't really a reply to your OP, more musings on presnt feelings. | |
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Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 11:09 - Sep 24 with 1184 views | hubble | Last season, from the last few games of wart face's tenure onwards, we were absolutely dire. A poisoned chalice for any manager, as Critchley found to his cost. We survived by the skin of our teeth. To be honest, I thought Ainsworth was a bit of joke, with his aged rock star looks and his David Brent clichés. I'll be honest, he still makes me cringe. But what was the X factor that got us those crazy wins against Burnley and Stoke that kept us up? Well it has to be Ainsworth and Dobbo. 8 games into this season is not that long to judge his revamped, rejigged, poundstore squad, but what we can say that is definitely different is that the team is now fighting to the final whistle and they look fitter doing it. Same X factor. It's early, early days in the Ainsworth era, and like most of you, I have plenty of doubts, but those facts are undeniable. | |
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Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 11:11 - Sep 24 with 1179 views | Headington | Some good, gradual progress with a stronger spine and more know-how in the team, with some light at the end of a long dark tunnel assuming we can improve our home form. | | | |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 11:11 - Sep 24 with 1176 views | nix |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 10:17 - Sep 24 by Blue_Castello | Well in my mind I posted something that was congratulating the management team, not saying that all our problems are solved and we will have a good season, just reread the post in case I mislead people. Like many during the Summer I knew we were in big trouble after watching last Seasons displays, we were nailed on for relegation if Ainsworth couldn't improve the team spirit and work ethic, lose a number of players from the squad and replace them with characters who will become team leaders and set an example to the rest of the squad, so for me that part has been a success. There's such a long way to go in improving our play around the final third which will be crucial in improving our home form and getting the results needed to keep us away from relegation. Like others on this thread I know we are a massive work in progress I never once said we were the finished article but there's nothing wrong in celebrating the improvement in team performance which is grinding us out results. Like most of the other people on this Forum I watch the Championship highlights as well as going to home games, it's obvious we have a long way to go to achieve free flowing football that was displayed by some teams this weekend. What I haven't lost sight of is the mess that Ainsworth inherited and that its been a really tough task to turn it around, in an ideal world we want a young squad like Sunderland with their energy and commitment but that takes time to build, it's Ainsworths predecessors that we have to thank for the squad debacle. [Post edited 24 Sep 2023 10:18]
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Absolutely right. Anyone who went to the AFC Wimbledon and Oxford Utd pre-season games would have been very worried at our chances of getting a point this season. The Watford match consolidated those fears. What we've seen more recently gives me hope that we have a chance of staying up this season and continuing to rebuild next season. I do think that's involved a lot of effort on the behalf of Gareth and the squad. Of course we all see that massive mistakes have been made. But at some point you have to look forward and see the present in balanced terms. Yes, we've still got lots of problems. No, we're not out of the woods. The happy clappers see those things. But they can also see there are some signs of improvement. Even the most negative of posters must be able to see that there is more togetherness in the squad and more players putting a shift in. I can also see that there are some technical improvements, like Kakay's crossing improving and our ability to block shots is much better. There are still loads more improvements we need to make, notably in the final third as Castello says, but that will take time. | | | |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 13:09 - Sep 24 with 1021 views | charmr | If we had won or lost that game there would have been a complete meltdown and polarization either way by many on here. I think that’s the point. We’re all Rangers at heart and it’s bloody difficult to be witnessing the situation this club has got itself into. [Post edited 24 Sep 2023 13:15]
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Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 13:13 - Sep 24 with 1018 views | numptydumpty |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 00:43 - Sep 24 by DejR_vu | Not sure I agree with your definition of ‘sad’ numpty. What I do find sad is the state of the club and that a section of the support base accept it so willingly, to the extent that anyone with a more critical view is accused of being a troll for not being negative after a half reasonable result. That’s why we end up with a fans’ forum that someone most people on here respect cited as bizarre in tone, given the last 12 months. If you feel positive after a point at Birmingham, leaving us 18th, with two wins in eight, nine if we include the cup defeat, and a poor goal difference, one win at home in 19, because the players are now doing the basics, great, good for you, but why do you and some others find it so difficult to accept not everyone is quite so easily pleased? Why is your opinion so important that you feel the need to call out others with a different view? You positive types are very quick to be negative about anyone perceived to be less positive than yourselves. You’ve got the club you deserve. |
Never mentioned the word sad Putting words into my mouth Stated shame some fans can never even feel happy about teams performances when progress is made. Ainsworth inherited crap unmotivated squad, survived by skin of teeth and since the Watford debacle, progress even if small, has been made, and I felt credit where it is due, all signings on the cheap have been effective. I just felt its a shame for individuals, not that they are sad but when we do actually improve and play well, there will always be some who still will always focus on the negatives. We follow QPR and we are always going be fighting against the odds so Man City we are not. If people can't celebrate the smaller achievements along the way then if you want me to use the word sad then yes that to me is sad for the person. We are never ever going dominate or be that team, some will want us to be. So just setting yourselves up for constant disappointments instead of the occasional pleasures [Post edited 24 Sep 2023 13:25]
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Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 13:20 - Sep 24 with 997 views | stainrods_elbow |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 23:26 - Sep 23 by numptydumpty | Will allow yourself to wallow in your own misery Sire !!! Better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all. |
Love, and especially fan love, involves being challenging, critical and analytical, not drowning in a soup of warm feeling. I certainly like some aspects of what I'm seeing, while retaining significant concerns about our tactical nous, squad depth, and goalscoring prowess. | |
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Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 13:21 - Sep 24 with 993 views | stainrods_elbow |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 23:18 - Sep 23 by numptydumpty | Extremely negative attitude |
No, it's not, it's sober thought and forethought, based on evidence. | |
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Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 13:24 - Sep 24 with 990 views | francisbowles |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 11:11 - Sep 24 by nix | Absolutely right. Anyone who went to the AFC Wimbledon and Oxford Utd pre-season games would have been very worried at our chances of getting a point this season. The Watford match consolidated those fears. What we've seen more recently gives me hope that we have a chance of staying up this season and continuing to rebuild next season. I do think that's involved a lot of effort on the behalf of Gareth and the squad. Of course we all see that massive mistakes have been made. But at some point you have to look forward and see the present in balanced terms. Yes, we've still got lots of problems. No, we're not out of the woods. The happy clappers see those things. But they can also see there are some signs of improvement. Even the most negative of posters must be able to see that there is more togetherness in the squad and more players putting a shift in. I can also see that there are some technical improvements, like Kakay's crossing improving and our ability to block shots is much better. There are still loads more improvements we need to make, notably in the final third as Castello says, but that will take time. |
Yes Nix, agree with all that. As for the shot blocking it's starting to me of how Clint Hill et all would throw themselves at everything the opponent threw at us in the Warnock Championship team. | | | |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 13:30 - Sep 24 with 976 views | numptydumpty |
Well done Gareth and Dobbo........ on 13:20 - Sep 24 by stainrods_elbow | Love, and especially fan love, involves being challenging, critical and analytical, not drowning in a soup of warm feeling. I certainly like some aspects of what I'm seeing, while retaining significant concerns about our tactical nous, squad depth, and goalscoring prowess. |
Warm feelings No, not exactly at all Again misrepresenting my own personal ideas. There are things that are a concern but considering our finances etc and state of squad last season, definite improvements and that's great. Just we doing OK currently but as said we are not Bayern Munich so the Holy grail for many is always and always will be unattainable. | |
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