| Russia invade Ukraine 14:17 - Dec 23 with 178769 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
Discuss.
Also why is Putin always described in the media as this rugged strongman? He’s barely five foot tall with his high heels on.
But that’s another debate.
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:00 - Dec 28 with 1562 views | Catullus |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 13:51 - Dec 28 by trampie |
The Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, Vladimir Putin. |
And Joe Biden believes the USA will beat Russia. That Putin line falls squarely into the supporting Russia camp!
The USA thinks it would beat Russia,
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/5-ways-nearly-guarantee-america-would-bea
But like Russia it's hardly going to publicly state, Ummm, yeah, we'd lose, is it? | |
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:05 - Dec 28 with 1552 views | Catullus |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 17:28 - Dec 27 by controversial_jack |
Russia doesn't want to or needs to roll across Europe, it has enough resources and lebensraum itself. This isn't 1945 |
PS, Lebensraum was Nazi Germany's thing. It's not so much about Russia expanding but about control and stopping the spread of the influence of NATO and the EU. Russia was pretty quiet until Ukraine applied to join NATO and the EU courted them, that is when this really went large.
Putin does not want a NATO country right on his doorstep. It's also a lot to do with why he's been destabilising Europe by mucking about with gas supplies. | |
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:21 - Dec 28 with 1543 views | controversial_jack |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:05 - Dec 28 by Catullus |
PS, Lebensraum was Nazi Germany's thing. It's not so much about Russia expanding but about control and stopping the spread of the influence of NATO and the EU. Russia was pretty quiet until Ukraine applied to join NATO and the EU courted them, that is when this really went large.
Putin does not want a NATO country right on his doorstep. It's also a lot to do with why he's been destabilising Europe by mucking about with gas supplies. |
Of course Russia doesn't want the influence of NATO on it's doorstep, who can blame them after what happened in ww2. They don't want a powerful force on the borders, but there's nothing they can do about it legally.
Of course he's trying to destablise NATO and the EU, it's what we have been trying to do to them for decades.
You are only looking at one side of it, we are the good guys and they are the bad ones. International affairs are rarely that straightforward and simplistic. | | | |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:27 - Dec 28 with 1529 views | Catullus |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:21 - Dec 28 by controversial_jack |
Of course Russia doesn't want the influence of NATO on it's doorstep, who can blame them after what happened in ww2. They don't want a powerful force on the borders, but there's nothing they can do about it legally.
Of course he's trying to destablise NATO and the EU, it's what we have been trying to do to them for decades.
You are only looking at one side of it, we are the good guys and they are the bad ones. International affairs are rarely that straightforward and simplistic. |
WW2 was Germany, not NATO. NATO only came into being because of the USSR's behaviour after the war.
Now legally, you mean like taking the Crimea and lining up to invade Ukraine?
Where did I say we were the good guys? The USA has (via the CIA) been destabilising regimes, trying to force regime change and generally interfering in other countries business for decades. The UK has too, as do most governments.
I haven't just looked at one side I have just provided the other point of view to Trampie's posts and pointed out (several times) that in a nuclear war, nobody wins.
What is simplistic is saying that Russia will beat the USA because Vlad Putin says so! | |
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:34 - Dec 28 with 1521 views | controversial_jack |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:27 - Dec 28 by Catullus |
WW2 was Germany, not NATO. NATO only came into being because of the USSR's behaviour after the war.
Now legally, you mean like taking the Crimea and lining up to invade Ukraine?
Where did I say we were the good guys? The USA has (via the CIA) been destabilising regimes, trying to force regime change and generally interfering in other countries business for decades. The UK has too, as do most governments.
I haven't just looked at one side I have just provided the other point of view to Trampie's posts and pointed out (several times) that in a nuclear war, nobody wins.
What is simplistic is saying that Russia will beat the USA because Vlad Putin says so! |
I was making analogies, with Lebensraum and fascists on their borders etc, not to be taken literally.
Russia aren't the good guys, but neither is NATO. There will be no wars over the Ukraine as nobody wants to take on the Ukraine as it's a basket case economically.
NATO will not go to the aid of the Ukraine if the worse did happen as no country would want another war, certainly not against Russia. Most countries have come unstuck doing just that. | | | |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:34 - Dec 28 with 1521 views | trampie |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 15:55 - Dec 28 by Catullus |
There is a permanent UK forces base on Gib and I'm sure you've heard of the "Suez crisis" of 1956?
The Crimea is part of Ukraine, Ukraine is an independent country. Russia's most important port is Novorossyisk. Russia has 105 ports.
Besides, wanting a port is one thing but just taking part of a country by force to get one is a tad wrong, don't you think? If they are so desperate for warm water ports maybe they'll try rolling on to the low countries? |
Crimea was part of the Russian Empire back in 1783, the Russians would argue rightly or wrongly that it is theirs. |  |
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:36 - Dec 28 with 1515 views | trampie |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:21 - Dec 28 by controversial_jack |
Of course Russia doesn't want the influence of NATO on it's doorstep, who can blame them after what happened in ww2. They don't want a powerful force on the borders, but there's nothing they can do about it legally.
Of course he's trying to destablise NATO and the EU, it's what we have been trying to do to them for decades.
You are only looking at one side of it, we are the good guys and they are the bad ones. International affairs are rarely that straightforward and simplistic. |
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:45 - Dec 28 with 1499 views | Catullus |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:34 - Dec 28 by trampie |
Crimea was part of the Russian Empire back in 1783, the Russians would argue rightly or wrongly that it is theirs. |
Wales has been part of the UK/GB for hundreds of years, people would argue (rightly or wrongly) that we should be independent.
Maybe you'd support the UK taking India back? No, obviously. Because empire building and colonialism is wrong. Which is why Russia shouldn't be allowed to invade Ukraine. | |
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:52 - Dec 28 with 1486 views | controversial_jack |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:45 - Dec 28 by Catullus |
Wales has been part of the UK/GB for hundreds of years, people would argue (rightly or wrongly) that we should be independent.
Maybe you'd support the UK taking India back? No, obviously. Because empire building and colonialism is wrong. Which is why Russia shouldn't be allowed to invade Ukraine. |
Ultimately, Russia will do exactly as it pleases and nothing NATO can or will do about it Right or wrong has no bearing on it at all. International affairs have never been about right or wrong, just about national interests | | | |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:53 - Dec 28 with 1486 views | Catullus |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:34 - Dec 28 by controversial_jack |
I was making analogies, with Lebensraum and fascists on their borders etc, not to be taken literally.
Russia aren't the good guys, but neither is NATO. There will be no wars over the Ukraine as nobody wants to take on the Ukraine as it's a basket case economically.
NATO will not go to the aid of the Ukraine if the worse did happen as no country would want another war, certainly not against Russia. Most countries have come unstuck doing just that. |
Nobody wants to take on the Ukraine? You mean besides Russia's massive build up on it's border and the fact the EU courted Ukraine,
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/12/russia-closer-to-war-ukraine-borde
In March 2016, President of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker stated that it would take at least 20—25 years for Ukraine to join the EU and NATO. In June 2018, President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko said he expected Ukraine will join both the European Union and the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation by 2030. Apr 23 2019
Your analogy, are you really comparing NATO to the Nazis? | |
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 17:03 - Dec 28 with 1473 views | trampie |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:45 - Dec 28 by Catullus |
Wales has been part of the UK/GB for hundreds of years, people would argue (rightly or wrongly) that we should be independent.
Maybe you'd support the UK taking India back? No, obviously. Because empire building and colonialism is wrong. Which is why Russia shouldn't be allowed to invade Ukraine. |
How strong is Ukraine's claim on Crimea ? (Should it belong to a group of stateless people and not Ukraine or Russia ?) | |
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 12:00 - Dec 29 with 1403 views | Catullus |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 17:03 - Dec 28 by trampie |
How strong is Ukraine's claim on Crimea ? (Should it belong to a group of stateless people and not Ukraine or Russia ?) |
That is something for the people who live there to decide, not Russia. The Crimea was part of Ukraine, the Russians took it and now they line up to take Ukraine. Do you support Russia in these moves? | |
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 12:02 - Dec 29 with 1397 views | Catullus |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:52 - Dec 28 by controversial_jack |
Ultimately, Russia will do exactly as it pleases and nothing NATO can or will do about it Right or wrong has no bearing on it at all. International affairs have never been about right or wrong, just about national interests |
Right or wrong, yes I can accept it has no bearing. You are wrong about NATO though, if Russia invades there are thing they can do. There are things the EU can do to, like trade sanctions.
Interesting that you used to say Russia won't invade but now you say they'll do as they please. | |
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 12:09 - Dec 29 with 1386 views | trampie |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 12:00 - Dec 29 by Catullus |
That is something for the people who live there to decide, not Russia. The Crimea was part of Ukraine, the Russians took it and now they line up to take Ukraine. Do you support Russia in these moves? |
The Crimean people did vote to join Russia (according to the vote).
The Crimea was part of the Russian state in the 1700s, why do you think it's Ukrainian and not belong to the Tatar people, why did Ukraine not give it to the Tatar people ? [Post edited 29 Dec 2021 12:11]
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 12:17 - Dec 29 with 1368 views | majorraglan |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 12:02 - Dec 29 by Catullus |
Right or wrong, yes I can accept it has no bearing. You are wrong about NATO though, if Russia invades there are thing they can do. There are things the EU can do to, like trade sanctions.
Interesting that you used to say Russia won't invade but now you say they'll do as they please. |
The EU could do sanctions, but Russia has the gas Europe needs! Here in lies the problem, Europe is dependant on others for a significant amount of its energy and need to be more self sufficient. There’s been more talk of potential black outs in the U.K. over the next few years as demand closes the gap and approaches the maximum generating capacity, this is something our governments should have addressed ages ago.
Huge price rises have a much larger impact on workers, etc than they do on the elite. | | | |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 13:07 - Dec 29 with 1354 views | Catullus |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 12:09 - Dec 29 by trampie |
The Crimean people did vote to join Russia (according to the vote).
The Crimea was part of the Russian state in the 1700s, why do you think it's Ukrainian and not belong to the Tatar people, why did Ukraine not give it to the Tatar people ? [Post edited 29 Dec 2021 12:11]
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I have this tendency not trust votes when democracy has been usurped, like the Russian vote for example. Dodgy.
https://www.politico.eu/article/vladimir-putin-united-russia-election-majority/
The Russians haven't given the Crimea to the Tatars either, nor the part of Russia they occupy, Tatarstan. | |
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 13:31 - Dec 29 with 1346 views | trampie |
That is my point you are saying it's Ukrainian and not Russian, I put it to you what about the Tatar people ?, Ukraine never give it to them, yet you claim it belongs to Ukraine.
The result was 97% to join Russia, if the result was skewed it would have to have been skewed on an industrial scale for the majority not to want to belong to Russia. | |
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 15:03 - Dec 29 with 1311 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:34 - Dec 28 by trampie |
Crimea was part of the Russian Empire back in 1783, the Russians would argue rightly or wrongly that it is theirs. |
The Russians signed away any rights to it with the treaty of Paris or whatever it was called following the Crimean war. | | | |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 15:08 - Dec 29 with 1306 views | trampie |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 15:03 - Dec 29 by Flynnidine_Zidownes |
The Russians signed away any rights to it with the treaty of Paris or whatever it was called following the Crimean war. |
The people on the peninsula want to be Russian apparently and a piece of paper is not forever. | |
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 15:22 - Dec 29 with 1289 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 13:31 - Dec 29 by trampie |
That is my point you are saying it's Ukrainian and not Russian, I put it to you what about the Tatar people ?, Ukraine never give it to them, yet you claim it belongs to Ukraine.
The result was 97% to join Russia, if the result was skewed it would have to have been skewed on an industrial scale for the majority not to want to belong to Russia. |
Weren’t most of the tartars forcibly deported to Siberia? I’m not surprised there’s a pro Russian vote when anybody not pro Russian is either deported, arrested or executed. | | | |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 15:31 - Dec 29 with 1273 views | trampie |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 15:22 - Dec 29 by Flynnidine_Zidownes |
Weren’t most of the tartars forcibly deported to Siberia? I’m not surprised there’s a pro Russian vote when anybody not pro Russian is either deported, arrested or executed. |
You mean like what happened to the Aborigines, native Americans and even the Irish ? | |
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 15:38 - Dec 29 with 1272 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:05 - Dec 28 by Catullus |
PS, Lebensraum was Nazi Germany's thing. It's not so much about Russia expanding but about control and stopping the spread of the influence of NATO and the EU. Russia was pretty quiet until Ukraine applied to join NATO and the EU courted them, that is when this really went large.
Putin does not want a NATO country right on his doorstep. It's also a lot to do with why he's been destabilising Europe by mucking about with gas supplies. |
Having that control of the Black Sea has also always been very important to the Russian chaps. Sevastopol was and is one of the worlds great maritime cities.
And he’s already got a nato country on his doorstep. Russia is less than three miles away from the USA. | | | |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 15:40 - Dec 29 with 1270 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 15:31 - Dec 29 by trampie |
You mean like what happened to the Aborigines, native Americans and even the Irish ? |
I don’t have the data to hand as to how many aborigines and Irish were moved to Siberia. | | | |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:00 - Dec 29 with 1265 views | Catullus |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 13:31 - Dec 29 by trampie |
That is my point you are saying it's Ukrainian and not Russian, I put it to you what about the Tatar people ?, Ukraine never give it to them, yet you claim it belongs to Ukraine.
The result was 97% to join Russia, if the result was skewed it would have to have been skewed on an industrial scale for the majority not to want to belong to Russia. |
Umm, the vote was massively skewed towards Russia. Here you go Tramps and please note that the Crimea was transferred to Ukraine by Russia,
https://www.history.com/news/crimea-russia-ukraine-annexation
Flynn, loving your work but lets face it, the USA and Russia aren't going to be sending troops to the Bering Strait. Putin doesn't want the frozen tundra (unless there's oil and gas there I guess) but he wants NATO kept away from his European borders, much easier to attack Russia from there. These people tend to be a bit paranoid like that. | |
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| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 16:07 - Dec 29 with 1255 views | trampie |
| Will Russia invade Ukraine? on 15:40 - Dec 29 by Flynnidine_Zidownes |
I don’t have the data to hand as to how many aborigines and Irish were moved to Siberia. |
Their fate unfortunately was often worse than being moved . | |
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