| General Election Thread 17:46 - May 22 with 268275 views | loftboy |
This will be the first election that I have no idea who to vote for, will never vote Tory again after the lies during covid where my dad lost his life, don’t trust starmer, would never vote for a bunch of racists like reform , anyone give me a clue?
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| General Election Thread on 20:39 - Jun 13 with 2131 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
When does the season start? |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 21:09 - Jun 13 with 2032 views | Rangersw12 |
This is probably stupid to some but isn't it about time that the NHS , Education and Energy should be taken away from Labour/Tories and we start having cross party discussions to agree 10/20/30 year plans for the good of the country and not just short term populist policies to get elected . | | | |
| General Election Thread on 21:37 - Jun 13 with 1964 views | derbyhoop |
| General Election Thread on 17:25 - Jun 13 by SheffieldHoop |
Immigration is partly why we have significant shortages in the first place. Immigration doesn't just fill vacant posts in healthcare or construction or hospitality.......It also adds demand in all of those sectors. Pretending you can solve "labour shortages" by throwing more people at the problem is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The reality is we need to become more self-sufficient and stop relying so much on the labour of others. |
That's a view, not one I agree with, but it doesnt solve the issues of labour shortages At least, not for the many years it takes to train up UK staff. Even if you can get them to take the jobs.
Pre-brexit, health care and hospitality had large numbers of non-UK nationals. Quite a large % moved on as the environment became more unwelcoming.. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 21:50]
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| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| General Election Thread on 21:54 - Jun 13 with 1909 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 21:37 - Jun 13 by derbyhoop |
That's a view, not one I agree with, but it doesnt solve the issues of labour shortages At least, not for the many years it takes to train up UK staff. Even if you can get them to take the jobs.
Pre-brexit, health care and hospitality had large numbers of non-UK nationals. Quite a large % moved on as the environment became more unwelcoming.. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 21:50]
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Statistically, immigrants use less services and pay more tax (per capita) because they are younger and more economically active.
The problems come when they are forced to live in already deprived areas because they are generally paid less, causing competition for services with already under strain non immigrants.
IMO. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 23:33]
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| General Election Thread on 22:02 - Jun 13 with 1877 views | essextaxiboy |
| General Election Thread on 20:14 - Jun 13 by Northernr |
Go on then, let's try and make it productive and have everybody's...
- top three learnings from the thread so far?
- And are you voting any different to how you were at the start? |
1/ I have learnt that the members of this board are able to respectfully disagree without abuse or p£sing off Clive .
2/ That the consensus seems to be getting the Tory’s out rather than voting Labour in.
3/ There is a lot of knowledge amongst us .
I haven’t voted Labour since Blair , but they have moved back towards me and I will vote for them this time . |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 23:26 - Jun 13 with 1750 views | loftboy |
| General Election Thread on 20:14 - Jun 13 by Northernr |
Go on then, let's try and make it productive and have everybody's...
- top three learnings from the thread so far?
- And are you voting any different to how you were at the start? |
1: I still don’t know who to vote for
2: 99% of the board members here can out over there views respectfully
3: a few of the posters are a lot more knowledgeable than me and I bow to your superior political know how. | |
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| General Election Thread on 23:47 - Jun 13 with 1719 views | SydneyRs |
| General Election Thread on 21:09 - Jun 13 by Rangersw12 |
This is probably stupid to some but isn't it about time that the NHS , Education and Energy should be taken away from Labour/Tories and we start having cross party discussions to agree 10/20/30 year plans for the good of the country and not just short term populist policies to get elected . |
Wouldn't this be great, rather than everything being about being in power and winning the next election. Its how it should be, but never will be. | | | |
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| General Election Thread on 03:52 - Jun 14 with 1629 views | SydneyRs |
| General Election Thread on 17:25 - Jun 13 by SheffieldHoop |
Immigration is partly why we have significant shortages in the first place. Immigration doesn't just fill vacant posts in healthcare or construction or hospitality.......It also adds demand in all of those sectors. Pretending you can solve "labour shortages" by throwing more people at the problem is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The reality is we need to become more self-sufficient and stop relying so much on the labour of others. |
Demographics and ageing population also factors.
Trump recently and somewhat opportunistically went on about most new US jobs being created being taken by people not born in the US. But when you look closer, the number of US born people of working age is declining due to ageing and therefore this is a natural result.
The increasing number of people over retirement age need pensions, health care etc. In the UK this requires funding from the tax base funded by working people. If the tax base is dwindling (which it certainly would be without immigration) while the retirement age population grows, who funds these things? And how?
I don't think anyone is just wanting to open the floodgates, that wouldn't work either. But something is needed to meet the demographic challenges. Immigration is the easiest solution to this. Not ideal maybe, but not sure what the alternative is. Take the pension away? Reduce it? Have a user pays health system like the US?
Yes it increases demands for goods and services too, but at least that demand is coming from people (mostly) who are contributing taxes to help pay for services, rather than the non working retired who receive pensions and don't pay income tax. Most goods and services attract VAT too, so contribute to the system via that.
Yes retirees contributed during their working lives, but their current and future pensions have to be funded by the current workforce, partly because successive governments have never focused on long term solutions, only gaining/retaining power. Economic boom times should be banked for the future, but are usually pissed away in an attempt to buy votes.
The mythical "silent majority" is not a majority in my view. Otherwise the tories would probably win again. They've taken up this further right space enthusiastically but it has completely backfired on them. The Brexit vote was in 2016 and has not produced any of the promised results. not least the fabled border control and immigration reduction. Where is that NHS money on the side of the bus? The fantastic trade deals that would be negotiated without EU "red tape".
I guess I just think that constantly ranting about immigration and blaming it for everything is pointless. It isn't going away, but certainly could be better managed.
The idea of being self sufficient sounds good, but is it realistic. How is it achieved? Perhaps get everyone to have 5 kids and in 20 years a boost to the UK born workforce and tax base will ensue. Only cost of living is already horrible and every child adds significantly to that as any of us who are parents will be well aware. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 07:01 - Jun 14 with 1544 views | Paddyhoops |
| General Election Thread on 17:02 - Jun 13 by derbyhoop |
So you have significant labour shortages in nursing, social care, hospitality, construction. If you aren't prepared to accept immigration, what's your solution? |
I came to the UK in 1987 as an economic migrant .
Not much opportunity for employment in Ireland back then and we were actively encouraged to get on our bikes (As Norman Tebbitt famously said) by the Irish government at that time.
Since then I’ve worked in the building industry and thanks to this country I’ve made a decent living.
I’ve noticed in the last ten years ago or so it’s increasingly difficult to find young English labour to come into the industry.
My trade is plastering , mainly basements . It’s bloody hard work and to be honest, we’re increasingly relying on foreign labour to fill gaps.
The same can be said for other industries like care homes and fruit pickers
Nigel Farage wants to put a stop to these type of workers coming into the country but as usual doesn’t offer any solutions.
Not sure what the answer to these problems are .
Pretty certain the politicians don’t either | | | |
| General Election Thread on 08:06 - Jun 14 with 1425 views | stevec |
| General Election Thread on 07:01 - Jun 14 by Paddyhoops |
I came to the UK in 1987 as an economic migrant .
Not much opportunity for employment in Ireland back then and we were actively encouraged to get on our bikes (As Norman Tebbitt famously said) by the Irish government at that time.
Since then I’ve worked in the building industry and thanks to this country I’ve made a decent living.
I’ve noticed in the last ten years ago or so it’s increasingly difficult to find young English labour to come into the industry.
My trade is plastering , mainly basements . It’s bloody hard work and to be honest, we’re increasingly relying on foreign labour to fill gaps.
The same can be said for other industries like care homes and fruit pickers
Nigel Farage wants to put a stop to these type of workers coming into the country but as usual doesn’t offer any solutions.
Not sure what the answer to these problems are .
Pretty certain the politicians don’t either |
That’s a very good synopsis of immigration working and indicative of the time you mention.
If you can’t find Brit plasterers, bricklayers, decorators, plumbers in your own industry it explains why I can’t when any work needed on my home and this is central to the problem.
Parents have been encouraged to send their kids to University, all for good reasons but it’s had a cataclysmic effect on this country. As much as anything, for a parent, sending your kid to University means them never having to get their hands dirty. And by and large, they don’t. Consequently, good well paid jobs, like in your industry, don’t get filled. Know of quite a few kids who really should have thought of these trades but they went to Uni, got a degree, and are invariably disenchanted working in a coffee shop or a pub bar. It’s an absolute waste for society and them as individuals.
Went out with a nurse when I was 19. They didn’t go to university, they lived and worked in and around their hospital, usually in huge buildings of nurses flats. They effectively had a kind of university education and had a great time but they did it directly around the work life rather than away from it. It was inclusive, there were no nurse shortages either.
I often refer to the law of unintended consequences and whilst Blair meant well, it’s absolutely crashed huge chunks of public services and the trades industry.
None of the parties ever mention this and a change of direction is not in any of their policies.
Subsequently we turned to immigration to solve the problem. It’s a shame we have to always come back to this as it’s ultimately about numbers and your countries ability to cope with numbers. Over the last 25 years we’ve increased our population by 10 million (average 400,000 a year). Our previous high was the previous 25 years, that was 2 million. It is physically impossible to create the infrastructure to cope with the last 25 years, no one can do it, no one can afford to do it. Right or left, we have to understand this otherwise this country will become unmanageable. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 08:36 - Jun 14 with 1379 views | Paddyhoops |
| General Election Thread on 08:06 - Jun 14 by stevec |
That’s a very good synopsis of immigration working and indicative of the time you mention.
If you can’t find Brit plasterers, bricklayers, decorators, plumbers in your own industry it explains why I can’t when any work needed on my home and this is central to the problem.
Parents have been encouraged to send their kids to University, all for good reasons but it’s had a cataclysmic effect on this country. As much as anything, for a parent, sending your kid to University means them never having to get their hands dirty. And by and large, they don’t. Consequently, good well paid jobs, like in your industry, don’t get filled. Know of quite a few kids who really should have thought of these trades but they went to Uni, got a degree, and are invariably disenchanted working in a coffee shop or a pub bar. It’s an absolute waste for society and them as individuals.
Went out with a nurse when I was 19. They didn’t go to university, they lived and worked in and around their hospital, usually in huge buildings of nurses flats. They effectively had a kind of university education and had a great time but they did it directly around the work life rather than away from it. It was inclusive, there were no nurse shortages either.
I often refer to the law of unintended consequences and whilst Blair meant well, it’s absolutely crashed huge chunks of public services and the trades industry.
None of the parties ever mention this and a change of direction is not in any of their policies.
Subsequently we turned to immigration to solve the problem. It’s a shame we have to always come back to this as it’s ultimately about numbers and your countries ability to cope with numbers. Over the last 25 years we’ve increased our population by 10 million (average 400,000 a year). Our previous high was the previous 25 years, that was 2 million. It is physically impossible to create the infrastructure to cope with the last 25 years, no one can do it, no one can afford to do it. Right or left, we have to understand this otherwise this country will become unmanageable. |
Funny enough I went out with a trainee nurse back in the eighties.
She was stationed at Archway hospital and she was provided with a bursary to help with her living costs.
When she qualified she ended up doing mostly agency work because it paid so much better.
Another example of money being chucked down the drain because a normal day job would pay half the money.
Steve is bang in about the insistence on people going into universities and higher education.
Get people on properly paid apprenticeships
Make it worthwhile and then it would make us less reliant on labour from abroad.
The main problem is the menial jobs which are low paid and not particularly enticing to people in this country.
They have to be filled and the idea that we just allow highly skilled people is not the main problem. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 08:59 - Jun 14 with 1325 views | Northernr |
| General Election Thread on 08:36 - Jun 14 by Paddyhoops |
Funny enough I went out with a trainee nurse back in the eighties.
She was stationed at Archway hospital and she was provided with a bursary to help with her living costs.
When she qualified she ended up doing mostly agency work because it paid so much better.
Another example of money being chucked down the drain because a normal day job would pay half the money.
Steve is bang in about the insistence on people going into universities and higher education.
Get people on properly paid apprenticeships
Make it worthwhile and then it would make us less reliant on labour from abroad.
The main problem is the menial jobs which are low paid and not particularly enticing to people in this country.
They have to be filled and the idea that we just allow highly skilled people is not the main problem. |
Doesn't the issue become more acute the lower down you go though?
I agree with you and Steve, kids should be sold apprenticeships and learning a trade like yours as opposed to going to the University of Stoke for David Beckham studies. You can earn good money doing some of that stuff - plastering, plumbing, leccy... it's skilled, it's always in demand, be your own boss etc. I know a lot of people exactly like you said working in bars into their 20s and 30s nursing a pointless degree and associated debt.
But where I'm from a lot of the so-called menial jobs were incredibly grim. It's 8 hours in a field picking spuds, or on a line gutting fish, or lugging stuff around the steel works.
That's a hard sell to any kid or parent. It's fair enough for people to aspire to better than that for their kids. This is why it makes me laugh when people say we should only allow immigration to the highly skilled, best and brightest etc. What, so they can do the cool jobs and the British kids can get on with all the fruit picking?
If you paid the money to attract them into that work then suddenly a bag of potatoes would cost £10+ and people would have a duck fit. Well, they wouldn't, we'd just buy the foreign ones cheaper and that'd be the end of British farming.
It's very complicated this, with no simple or quick solutions, but it suits certain politicians and media outlets to pretend the opposite. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 08:59 - Jun 14 with 1323 views | loftboy |
| General Election Thread on 03:52 - Jun 14 by SydneyRs |
Demographics and ageing population also factors.
Trump recently and somewhat opportunistically went on about most new US jobs being created being taken by people not born in the US. But when you look closer, the number of US born people of working age is declining due to ageing and therefore this is a natural result.
The increasing number of people over retirement age need pensions, health care etc. In the UK this requires funding from the tax base funded by working people. If the tax base is dwindling (which it certainly would be without immigration) while the retirement age population grows, who funds these things? And how?
I don't think anyone is just wanting to open the floodgates, that wouldn't work either. But something is needed to meet the demographic challenges. Immigration is the easiest solution to this. Not ideal maybe, but not sure what the alternative is. Take the pension away? Reduce it? Have a user pays health system like the US?
Yes it increases demands for goods and services too, but at least that demand is coming from people (mostly) who are contributing taxes to help pay for services, rather than the non working retired who receive pensions and don't pay income tax. Most goods and services attract VAT too, so contribute to the system via that.
Yes retirees contributed during their working lives, but their current and future pensions have to be funded by the current workforce, partly because successive governments have never focused on long term solutions, only gaining/retaining power. Economic boom times should be banked for the future, but are usually pissed away in an attempt to buy votes.
The mythical "silent majority" is not a majority in my view. Otherwise the tories would probably win again. They've taken up this further right space enthusiastically but it has completely backfired on them. The Brexit vote was in 2016 and has not produced any of the promised results. not least the fabled border control and immigration reduction. Where is that NHS money on the side of the bus? The fantastic trade deals that would be negotiated without EU "red tape".
I guess I just think that constantly ranting about immigration and blaming it for everything is pointless. It isn't going away, but certainly could be better managed.
The idea of being self sufficient sounds good, but is it realistic. How is it achieved? Perhaps get everyone to have 5 kids and in 20 years a boost to the UK born workforce and tax base will ensue. Only cost of living is already horrible and every child adds significantly to that as any of us who are parents will be well aware. |
“ The increasing number of people over retirement age need pensions, health care etc. In the UK this requires funding from the tax base funded by working people. If the tax base is dwindling (which it certainly would be without immigration) while the retirement age population grows, who funds these things? And how?”
Here we go shades of Russian Bot here, can I remind you that my generation unless academically gifted left school at 16, started work immediately, my first tax code gave me a tax free allowance of £1275 compared with £12500 today, we paid over 20 P in the pound tax, once married the only help available was child benefit, there was no tax credits, or universal credit to back up your wages, you wanted more money you did more overtime.
As I’ve said previously by the time I get my state pension ( which is one of the lowest in Europe) I’d have worked for 51 years. I think I’ve contributed to my pension, don’t you? | |
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| General Election Thread on 09:17 - Jun 14 with 1244 views | Northernr |
I’m not disagreeing with you, but again you’d then have to have an honest conversation with people about why British produce is so expensive, or why care homes are completely extortionate, and you’d make things like our farms uncompetitive. It’s more of a vicious cycle than a pyramid. I don’t know what the answer is, it’s not an easy one for sure whatever some want you to believe. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 09:23 - Jun 14 with 1201 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 09:17 - Jun 14 by Northernr |
I’m not disagreeing with you, but again you’d then have to have an honest conversation with people about why British produce is so expensive, or why care homes are completely extortionate, and you’d make things like our farms uncompetitive. It’s more of a vicious cycle than a pyramid. I don’t know what the answer is, it’s not an easy one for sure whatever some want you to believe. |
‘I don’t know what the answer is’
I do.
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| General Election Thread on 09:28 - Jun 14 with 2399 views | FDC |
| General Election Thread on 09:23 - Jun 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
‘I don’t know what the answer is’
I do.
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| General Election Thread on 09:33 - Jun 14 with 2390 views | Paddyhoops |
| General Election Thread on 08:59 - Jun 14 by Northernr |
Doesn't the issue become more acute the lower down you go though?
I agree with you and Steve, kids should be sold apprenticeships and learning a trade like yours as opposed to going to the University of Stoke for David Beckham studies. You can earn good money doing some of that stuff - plastering, plumbing, leccy... it's skilled, it's always in demand, be your own boss etc. I know a lot of people exactly like you said working in bars into their 20s and 30s nursing a pointless degree and associated debt.
But where I'm from a lot of the so-called menial jobs were incredibly grim. It's 8 hours in a field picking spuds, or on a line gutting fish, or lugging stuff around the steel works.
That's a hard sell to any kid or parent. It's fair enough for people to aspire to better than that for their kids. This is why it makes me laugh when people say we should only allow immigration to the highly skilled, best and brightest etc. What, so they can do the cool jobs and the British kids can get on with all the fruit picking?
If you paid the money to attract them into that work then suddenly a bag of potatoes would cost £10+ and people would have a duck fit. Well, they wouldn't, we'd just buy the foreign ones cheaper and that'd be the end of British farming.
It's very complicated this, with no simple or quick solutions, but it suits certain politicians and media outlets to pretend the opposite. |
I’m listening to the Nicky Campbell interview with Farage as we speak. The same issue of fruit pickers and care workers has come up.
He says we don’t need them .
He didn’t offer any solutions as to how we replace them sadly . He never does.
When questioned about his reform colleague, Ben Habib who commented that asylum seekers shoud be left in the sea if their dinghy overturns in the channel.
Mr Habib is a man of Pakistani heritage which makes his views even more baffling.
Farage refused to condemn his comments.
I just turned off in disgust at that point.
Where’s the humanity. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 09:41 - Jun 14 with 2344 views | Northernr |
Sounds great. Long fcking road to get to there though, and absolutely not simple or plain sailing along the way. You can’t just suddenly turn around and say it’s £60 an hour to clean your pub, or £15 for a bag of potatoes, there’d be riots.things like hospitality would largely collapse.
It’s like this current campaign where everybody is pretending they’re going to repair crumbling public services while not raising taxes. Good luck with that. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 09:45 - Jun 14 with 2328 views | Stainrod |
| General Election Thread on 20:30 - Jun 13 by hubble |
I just want to point out the unsavoury and unwarranted accusation in your post:
"Force people (white people I'm guessing would be your preference) to breed more?"
I think SheffieldHoop has been fairly scrupulous in replying to all the different posters who have (apparently) taken umbrage with his point of view, but nothing that he has said warrants your (IMO) snide accusation.
What I find interesting is that the most hostile and ad hominem posts in this thread have come from those who position themselves on the 'liberal left', who are, supposedly, the inclusive and 'progressive' class.
No one has a monopoly on what is 'right' or 'wrong', no one's opinions are more valid than anyone else's and all morals are subjective.
(edit - spelling mistake) [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 20:39]
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I thought it was a fair reading of Sheffield's views considering how vehement he was about what he considers the damage to this country caused by immigration, including sexual assaults by certain ethnic groups which I believe were mentioned (I thought by him but apologies if not). Anyway, if I have misrepresented Sheffield's views then naturally I apologise. No hard feelings I hope. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 10:12 - Jun 14 with 2230 views | colinallcars |
| General Election Thread on 08:59 - Jun 14 by loftboy |
“ The increasing number of people over retirement age need pensions, health care etc. In the UK this requires funding from the tax base funded by working people. If the tax base is dwindling (which it certainly would be without immigration) while the retirement age population grows, who funds these things? And how?”
Here we go shades of Russian Bot here, can I remind you that my generation unless academically gifted left school at 16, started work immediately, my first tax code gave me a tax free allowance of £1275 compared with £12500 today, we paid over 20 P in the pound tax, once married the only help available was child benefit, there was no tax credits, or universal credit to back up your wages, you wanted more money you did more overtime.
As I’ve said previously by the time I get my state pension ( which is one of the lowest in Europe) I’d have worked for 51 years. I think I’ve contributed to my pension, don’t you? |
An even more striking example - my eldest brother left school at 14 ! Went straight into work on crap wages and conditions ( no sick pay or company pensions then ), did national service then returned to work. Never drew a benefit in his life and yet didn't make it to 65.
I'm glad Russianbot is no longer here but worry about inter-generational trouble-stirring. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 10:52 - Jun 14 with 2141 views | hubble |
| General Election Thread on 09:23 - Jun 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
‘I don’t know what the answer is’
I do.
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The dictatorship of the proletariat achieved through violent revolution? Yeah, great idea. That's worked really well elsewhere, after all. |  |
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| General Election Thread on 10:54 - Jun 14 with 2151 views | Juzzie |
| General Election Thread on 19:10 - Jun 13 by Jevlar |
The older I get the more I think, I just want people in charge who serve us, and not themselves and their mates… wishful thinking
Sunak and Starmer both at the their core feel relatively centrist and looking more widely it feels like extremes (right) on the rise in Europe will be the future battleground when the next election cycle hits. |
IMO that's the essence of what politicians should do. They are there to serve us & the country. I wonder if they've forgotten this.
The infantile bickering that is so tedious in parliament seems they're just serving their own interests and oneupmanship over the greater good.
I also hate the usage of the phrase "... in power". They are not 'in power', though it feels it at times. [Post edited 14 Jun 2024 14:42]
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| General Election Thread on 11:09 - Jun 14 with 2109 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 10:52 - Jun 14 by hubble |
The dictatorship of the proletariat achieved through violent revolution? Yeah, great idea. That's worked really well elsewhere, after all. |
That's not what marxism is, but i'm not going to inflict LfW with a lecture about it so will leave it there. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 11:22 - Jun 14 with 2074 views | colinallcars |
| General Election Thread on 11:09 - Jun 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
That's not what marxism is, but i'm not going to inflict LfW with a lecture about it so will leave it there. |
I dunno about Marx, he didn't like Assam tea did he ? | | | |
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