A performance from Saints that veered from one end of the spectrum to the other, but ultimately a battling performance was ruined by all 3 goals being gifted to Liverpool in one shape or form.

The team news before the game was a little baffling for Saints supporters, despite the likes of James Bree & Ryan Manning on the bench and indeed Charlie Taylor being completely ignored, we appeared to be taking the field without a left back, guessing how we would line up was just that, guesswork !

When the game kicked off it seemed that it was a back three with Flynn Downes dropping back into the centre of defence and Kyle Walker Peters and Ryan Fraser as wing backs.

But the game started as Saints fans feared it would, Liverpool had most of the ball and the lions share of the chances and it took Alex McCarthy to make a few decent saves to keep the score level.

But just as it looked like we had found our pattern and had weathered the storm came our first shot in our own foot, Alex McCarthy had the ball after a simple save and had no need to rush things, it was about slowing things down and taking the sting out of the game, but within seconds of catching it, he rolled it out to Fernandes, who had two men up his rear end, he laid the ball back to Flynn Downes who was on the dead ball line, he shanked his clearance and Szoboszlai finished what was a simple chance, although an accurate finish was needed.

Indeed looking at the player ratings, Alex McCarthy has the lowest marks, that is unfair, he made some vital saves that could easily have seen us 3-0 down, but that was undone by his pass out for the first goal conceded and the lack of timing for the second.

So once again we waste 30 minutes of hard work to stay in the game and impose ourselves on it by giving a goal away by playing to the instruction of the manager of playing this tippy tappy football even when the players instincts must tell them it is the wrong thing to do.

Of course if Downes had cleared the ball properly then the goal would not have happened, but the truth is that this type of football forces mistakes from our own team.

However we didn't let this rattle us and we kept going and it was about getting into the break without further damage, however with minutes to go before half time came a stroke of good luck, Tyler Dibling picked up the ball and ran at Liverpool, he got to the edge of the penalty area and was tackled, the referee pointed to the spot.

Having seen the replay literally dozen's of time now, I can see why Liverpool were peeved, it was a close call was it inside or outside the box ? the truth is that VAR went with the refs decision that it was inside, if it was being viewed from a different situation, ie the ref had given a free kick outside the box, then they would have stuck with that.

Adam Armstrong's penalty was poor, but luckily it came straight back to the Saints striker who coolly finished to send us in level at the break.

Now we had something to play for and we started to get more of the ball, bizarrely, the goal that put us 2-1 up started from a mistake, Alex McCarthy came for a cross and caught it, but when he hit the ground he dropped it, luckily it was a Saints player who got to the ball first and laid a pass to Ryan Fraser on the right, he in turn played a lovely ball up the line to Tyler Dibling who ran forward and then played a brilliant cross field pass to Adam Armstrong, it looked like it would go nowhere, with 3 Liverpool players converging on the Saints striker, however he checked his run, turned and laid a perfect pass into Matteus Fernandes who finished with aplomb placing the ball into the corner to give Saints what had looked at one time an unlikely lead.

The game was going to be tough enough to see out, but again we shot ourselves in the foot, watching the replays I think that Mo Salah was offside, but he carried on and Alex McCarthy completely botched up his timing to come out for the ball and his hesitancy cost us dearly with Salah getting to the ball with the keeper stranded in no mans land and a simple tap in.

Now Liverpool were back on the front foot, but we dug in and survived the next 18 minutes, although McCarthy was now very dodgy on crosses, we held firm, then came a stroke of bad luck, a cross into the box looked to be going nowhere Suguwara seemed to be caught in two minds whether to clear it or let it run out for a goal kick, he opted for the latter but couldn't get out of the way of the ball in time, it hit him and popped up and hit his outstretched arm, at the time I thought that this was harsh, but after watching the replays, I think that awarding the spot kick was the right thing, his arm initially was not in a natural position it was outstretched and if it hadn't have hit it it would probably gone to the Liverpool player just behind our man, harsh on Suguwara, but this is the Premier League and once again we were found wanting in a situation that should have been dealt with better.

Overall there were many good things to take from this game, at times we showed that we can play football, we showed spirit, but the problem was this was all undone by the manager's obsession to keep playing football in tight areas, it is hard to see how anything will change if we keep playing this way, but it seems that Russell Martin is going to stick to his guns to the maximum, as I said something has to change and that means either the manager has to change and adapt his tactics or the manager has to be changed.

Another talking point from this game is Paul Onuauchu, there were some who heralded his performance before he went off injured on 52 minutes and there can be no doubt that it was a spirited one and that he put in a shift.

But on the other hand a few neat little shuffled in the centre circle is not going to win us games, Onuachu was meant to be the target man, but I can't remember him getting a touch in the final third let alone the penalty box.

I don't blame the player himself here, I blame Russell Martin, just what is the point of playing this type of player, when he doesn't fit into the style you want to play as a manager, Onuachu is all about getting on the end of the ball in the box, but we don't play that way, so he has to keep dropping deeper and deeper, he didn't have a bad game, but if we want someone just battling in the centre circle then we should play a midfielder.

Likewise Cameron Archer, he is about running the channels, how many times do we watch him make a run only to find that the pass never arrives as the ball is passed sideways or backwards again.

Worryingly I don't think that Russell Martin knows how to get us out of this position, he is not willing to compromise or adapt, in fact this display and the one at Wolves showed that he seems to be applying the level of possession football to an either greater level, the goalkeeper feels he has to get the ball out quickly and is playing his team into trouble, defenders are afraid to clear the ball and are looking for the short pass even when it isn't on, midfielders are scared to play through balls unless the chance of the pass completion is 99% and the strikers are left isolated.

All this has lead to where we are now and we don't deserve to be there, we cannot kill off games, we cannot change tactics when we have a lead, we can't vary the play during a game to suit what the situation is at the time, we don't do the basics when the basics are what is needed, we have to play to instruction and ultimately that leads to errors.

So that is 12 games played and 10 defeats, when are things going to change ?

All Photos Via Reuters

UgandaSaint added 10:11 - Nov 25 We bought CB's Edwards and Wood in the summer, we have a German international CB Bella-Kotchap, we have Taylor who has played CB in the Premier League. Instead of utilising one of these, Martin takes our most mobile midfielder and plays him at CB. Uter madness. For those that will argue that Edwards and Wood are inexperienced, transfermarkt has their value at nearly double that of Stephens, and how are they supposed to gain experience if they don't play?

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DPeps added 10:28 - Nov 25 In defence of McCarthy for their first: Fernandes seemed to be showing for the ball and Downes' clearance was poor. Having said that, I think with Ramsdale in goal we wouldn't have lost. This won't be a popular view but I think fans need to be more pragmatic about Martin. Unless the players turn on him I can't see Sports Republic getting rid. In fact the players seem to like playing for him, which speaks volumes given how the season has gone. SR are playing a longer game as they know Martin stands a good chance of getting us back up next season. Martin is also potentially playing a long game as well, as other clubs will likely appreciate him sticking to his guns. Let's face it we're going down this season and I don't hear credible alternatives from fans about who we could get instead ('credible' as in a manager who could reasonably be expected to be an upgrade and would come to us). Better to see this season as steep learning curve for our players, some of whom are very talented but young, and Martin

-5

landsdownsaint added 10:37 - Nov 25 All that game said to me is with a different manager & style of play we can stay up but that ain’t happening.Everytime he picks Onachu hes literally sticking to fingers up to the fans , for me playing talll Paul correctly is our only chance of staying up ,
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onetowatch added 10:39 - Nov 25 What has Charlie Taylor done to upset RM???? If there has been a falling out, then RM needs to park his ego. and along with CT, sit in a room, then with ABK and sort whatever has gone wrong. We can't afford to have players who can make a positive contribution not even making the bench, let alone the starting 11. I truly believe RM is an egotistical idiot....
14

wessexman added 10:44 - Nov 25 AM made exactly the same mistake at Newcastle on our first outing this season. Did it cost us a point then? AM is an experienced goalie and should and does know better. RM's extreme possession football is suicidal. He is not willing to compromise, that is clear now. Is he now doing this on purpose so he can have his huge payout? Is he now holding SR to ransom? SR deserve this btw, even though the fans are treated like the proverbial by both SR and an extremely arrogant manager.

7

obelisk added 10:46 - Nov 25 " SR are playing a longer game as they know Martin stands a good chance of getting us back up next season.". That would be a dangerous game. Martin barely got Saints promoted last time once other managers had sussed out how to play RussBall. There's every chance that he'll continue to concede a sackful of goals just as his teams have always done, resulting in a struggle to even make the play offs.

6

JoeEgg added 10:48 - Nov 25 A very good summary Nick after more unnecessary frustration for the Saints supporters. There are some, including Premier League managers , who continue to praise Martin for his courage to stick with his possession based football. Its quite possible that Martin will follow the Kompany route and end up with a top job with better players at his disposable; What should now be crystal clear to everyone is that his tippy tappy style is not going to work at St Marys. He choses players to play his style and has ostracised and ignored those who cant adapt to his way of playing. His team selections are at best baffling and we are fast running out of survival time in the Premier League. What is even more frustrating for Saints fans is that we are seeing moments of great determination and quality from some of our players, and maybe, just maybe, we have the resources necessary to make good progress in this league if we change our suicidal tactics and play to our strengths. Martin is not going to change and why should he? He has made his money and with top managers apparently singing his praise, he will soon, like Kompany, be in demand again and most likely with a top club! Such is the unpredictability of football Martin has nothing to fear for his future. If Sports Republic do not act now any change will be too late anyway to make any substantial difference to our League position. Some fans are already looking to next season with the same manager offered the opportunity to take us back again to the top League - what a crazy point of view - Dibling and our most talented players will be long gone by then - lets make a fight of it this season - we worked hard enough to get back and we still have a chance of survival with this stubborn individual of a manager gone!

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Heisenberg added 11:01 - Nov 25 McCarthy finally goes long getting rid of the ball in a potentially difficult situation. St Mary’s erupts with an ironic cheer. Pundits on TV say who can blame the fans as the playing around at the back has cost us so many times this season. The only person who can’t see it is Martin. With a well drilled side coached to manage games and minimise risk Saints could have won yesterday. Martin must go.

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DPeps added 11:05 - Nov 25 Obelisk - take your point. However I'd say last season has to be seen in context: Martin inherited a bad situation at the club:bloated squad, a few players who evidently weren't up for playing in the championship, joining a club who got through 3 managers the season previous). Also, there were some very good sides in the championship last season - better than usual most pundits say. I think getting us up last season was quite an achievement in that context. The PL is a different league altogether from the championship. There's no dross. We haven't been able to strengthen the team to guarantee staying up - this is partly because of some bad decisions from SR: buying one striker for £25million would have been better than buying Archer and Bereton imo, but that's with hindsight. But also it's down to FFP - newly promoted clubs have it tougher nowadays. SR have got some good players in as well, mind, so credit there. SR seem to stick with managers until it becomes untenable to do so - Ralph was on borrowed time for a while and Jones basically had a meltdown. I think they won't get rid of Martin unless the players turn or unless we our current performance levels drop off a lot.

1

IanRC added 12:03 - Nov 25 First off I hope we have Dibling and Fernandes signed up to very long contracts, real super stars potentially. Unlike me to side with Liverpool but I think Downes in the centre played Saleh onside for their second. You say McCarthy pulled off some good saves Nick but he was also largely responsible for two of their goals, a dreadful performance in my eyes. What on earth was he thinking of with his positioning for their second. That said if Downes had put his foot through the ball for the first all would have been well and if Stephen’s (who was again generally poor) had been anywhere near Saleh then the second might have been prevented. Madness to have him marking Saleh. The officiating was again very much in favour of our opponents, yes we were given the penalty (though I was amazed when it was given due to the usual bias) but we had two other penalty appeals not given when AA was taken out by their goal keeper and Archer was pushed over by Kanoute. Then to cap it all they are given a soft penalty to win it. I disagree with you and the PGMOL statement - Sugawara’s arm was a little away from his body but he did not move his arm towards the ball when it bounced up - if it had been the other way round we would not have been given one. On the selections Martin messed up badly, Taylor would have done a much better job than Stephen’s against Saleh. What use is it playing Tall Paul when you leave out Sugawara and Sulemana, two of the few apparently capable of getting down the wing and putting in a decent cross. In many ways a really good performance wrecked by stupid lapses and poor management. Really hope Sports Republic grow a pair whilst we still have a (remote) chance of survival.

5

Peterx added 12:17 - Nov 25 We have the players to keep us up if we acted right now and got a skilled but pragmatic manager in. In my opinion we have as good if not better squads than 5 others. RM is frustrating, because some of the football we have played under his guidance has been top draw, but his stubbornness and unwillingness to compromise along with some strange subs is what is costing us. ABK, Sulemana and Tall Paul (basically our most expensive signings) are probably the recipe to keeping us up, but all seem to have issues with the manager or supposed attitude problems - that could just as easily be the Manager's inability to understand and manage marquee players. In hindsight, not replacing Jason Wilcox was also an issue from the club as you don't have that footballing voice of reason with the authority to stop the nonsense. He needs to go pragmatic now, while maintaining the essence of his style.... or he needs to leave. Nothing wrong with Flynn Downes letting the ball run and conceding a corner if he is under pressure, nothing wrong with our CBs hitting row Z if the %'s are against us playing out. Nothing wrong with hitting long balls into Tall Paul in the centre circle from the gk, it almost worked on the weekend. Hugely frustrated.

10

TimSaint added 12:19 - Nov 25 3 gifts and it isn't Christmas for another 4 weeks. McCvnty needs to start diving on the ball and staying down for a bit, like FF used to do. Calms everyone down a bit and wastes time. Far too much fannying around in danger areas again and against a team like Liverpool, it was only a matter of time. If in doubt, hoof it out FFS. Downes in the centre played Salah on for their 2nd, but McCvnty was badly at fault. It was a pen. Sugawara inexplicably moved his hand to the ball. Scores too early to go 2-1 up. Thought it was a pen when A Arm got poleaxed by their keeper - we can have Saints potentially going 3-1 up against the top of the league and media darlings, so let's give a foul against Saints. Hopefully this battling performance will now make us play a lot more directly and move the ball forward more quickly. I doubt it though.

2

kingolaf added 12:20 - Nov 25 Same old same old. Martin epitomises the definition of insanity. The board are a disgrace. My season ticket isn’t going to be used much more unless Martin is given the boot. What’s the point?
2

Farlow added 12:24 - Nov 25 I thought when he gave tall Paul a start he,d seen the light and give Macarthy the chance to go Long.But no still this suicidal playing out from the back policy.Proper coaches play the system which best suits their players,this doughnut is clueless but I think SR are happy to plough on regardless.
7

JGH added 12:26 - Nov 25 I really don't think you can blame the managers style of play for three defensive howlers. First an error from a player actively trying to clear (as opposed to playing a short pass - if Downes was attempting 'tippie tappie' there would have been a different outcome). Second a mistake so bad you could be mistaken for thinking McCarthy must be part of a betting syndicate. Third he gets himself completely tied in knots. I get you've got a narrative you consistently push - there's been plenty of evidence to support that narrative but not yesterday.

-5

DoctorSleep added 12:40 - Nov 25 Nothing like focusing on a team in trouble! We have 8 matches between now and the New Year ( all competitions ) and 7 of them are televised. Crystal Palace on the 29/12 isn't - currently. A little bit of respite in Jan - only 1 so far.
-1

131153 added 13:18 - Nov 25 Reasonable to say an entertaining Match. Clearly mistakes cost us, Can't really understand the pas from AM to Fernandez his pass to FD was poorly executed under pressure and therefore became more difficult the rest we know. There is no doubt the big teams get the benefit of doubt, no question the Suguwara handball was a pen. The same as the ball bouncing 3 times on Mctominays outstretched arm the season before last, surprise surprise no penalty for us. The only words regarding the the no penalty for the foul on AA by their keeper are quite staggering what game were the VAR team watching. Their keeper missed the ball he went for took our player down under the rules that is a foul, in the box is a penalty. Over to MOTD 2 for expert opinion who pops up scouser and ex Liverpool player to say not an outrageous mistake. Had he been fouled like that when playing he would have been screaming for a penalty. Expect another PGMOL apology after the 4-5 second tug on the shirt of PO by the Leicester defender. Maybe. Difficult to see anything other than relegation, but maybe I am wrong this feels different from two seasons ago when we seemed to be just headless chickens. The resulting relegation will be the same but we might possibly be in a slightly better position at the start of next season than at the start of last season. Suppose I'd better take off the rose tinted specs.

3

saintmark1976 added 13:30 - Nov 25 No point in Sports Republic sacking Martin, we were effectively relegated during the weekend the clocks went back, so doing so now would just add to their financial problems. Martin’s decision yesterday to play a very small out of form winger as a full back was straight out of the Branfoot coaching manual when he played Paul Moody in preference to Matt LeTiss. On the basis of that decision alone he deserves to go but in our heart of hearts we all know it’s not going to happen don’t we. Nothing left for us season ticket holders other than to marvel at Dibbling’s ability and wonder what might have been if Sports Republic hadn’t been daft enough to give Martin a new three year contract during the summer.

9

ItchenNorth added 13:56 - Nov 25 Players are not good enough for this style of play. McCarthy was at fault for twos goal. There is no why Ramsdale in a big game like that rushes to roll the ball out to Fernandes. He'd slow the game down. McCarthy was slow to come out for the second and his positioning was equally as awful making it all but an open goal for Salah to find the net. There were positives in Fernandes and Dibling, again but as mentioned already, Martin's starting line-up was baffling. Surely Bree or Suga had to start and why put Downes in a back 3. Was Martin really expecting Fraser and KWP to give us threat going forward as wingbacks against Liverpool. It might be old school, but this was crying out for a 442. Why play Tall Pall if we never play to his strengths and hit him long to hold the ball up. Yes he played well, but he was getting us out of a hole in midfield half the him, not causing Liverpool centre backs problems.

5

dellboysaint added 16:01 - Nov 25 There is something seriously wrong with SR. They appoint mid championship managers and invest in mid championship players. They also presumably expect to stay in the Premiership. Or do they? Is it really there intention for us to be a yo yo club? Every premiership club would have sacked Matin by now but there is an arrogance about SR……a ‘we know better’ arrogance. Have they any thought for the fans who have to put up with Sunday league mistakes.

3

saintmark1976 added 16:13 - Nov 25 dellboysaint, “ There is something seriously wrong with SR” :- Yes. “ Is it really their intention for us to be a yo yo club” :- Yes. “ Have they any thought for the fans” :- No.
2

Colburn added 17:09 - Nov 25 This is a tough one to call now.. After the Leicester game I was done with Martin because of the naivety and stupidity of our game management which cost us so many points. Although I’d still be happy if we brought in someone more experienced like Potter or Moyes, I have to say we show signs of mixing it with the best. At City I thought we were magnificent at times and yesterday again, made a title challenger look very ordinary. Sadly we gifted them 3 goals and again with the help of a crap VAR cheat, lost the points. I don’t understand Fraser at left wingback and our best midfielder Downes playing sweeper. McCarthy was like a PlayStation goalie for their second, randomly running out of his box not even in line with the goal. He also should have seen that Fernandes had 2 men up his backside for the first and should have kept the ball for longer. The team are disjointed when the keeper gets the ball, some look to receive the ball quickly but half of them aren’t even looking at what’s going on, which is why we get caught out. Either we all shape up and break out immediately or we tell the keeper to hold. Half the team do one thing and half the other, this is crazy. Only 1 new starter from last year, Fernandes, all the other new summer signings either benched or not in the squad which suggests our recruitment is farcical with a touch of genius! I just don’t know if it’s better to rid now or keep Martin, there is much which impresses and entertains but we only have 4 points from 12 games and it’s about results. Please can we have a ref and VAR who don’t stitch us up Friday please?

2

SanMarco added 18:50 - Nov 25 JoeEgg - I am sure all 19 EPL managers will be encouraging RM to carry on just like he is and will be delighted to see him do so!!! I could manage the opposition at the moment - boot it up to McCarthy and just wait for the opportunities... Off form Liverpool, difficult conditions - a recipe for a shock? Should have been but eccentric team selection and players in the wrong positions + the usual suicidal play at the back meant no. Russell has to go because THIS ISN'T WORKING. The fact so many said it wouldn't work, of course makes it worse. The large 'I told you so' brigade join with the disillusioned optimists and those shaking their heads at the craziness of this continuing 'experiment' - has there ever been a time in modern football when such self-destructive nonsense has been allowed to go on for so long?. Our squad is one of the weaker ones in the league (thanks SR, although perhaps that was inevitable) but is it really a 'tailed off' squad? We lost yesterday because of Russell Martin. Imagine the surge in confidence after beating (or even drawing) with Liverpool, instead a slide further down the doom slope. On the referee and VAR I didn't think we were hard done by. Our penalty was just outside (they were right not to overturn though, just like they were wrong to do so at Wolves - CLEAR AND OBVIOUS). Also My gut reaction when I saw the replay was that Lallana was off - he was lucky, he could have easily gone. And their penalty was one because that is the rule - if the officials enforce the rules then I don't complain. Football has an interpretation of 'deliberate' that you won't find in the dictionary but it was just bad luck. Perhaps if Sugarwara had have played from the start he would have judged the conditions better. Finally the two claims in the second half: Archer no way a pen. Armstrong definitely in the 'I have seen them given' category but was never going to be overturned. The two things that went FOR us came first so I am not surprised that the Armstrong one went the other way. I thought it happened at 2-2 but I saw someone say it would have made it 3-1. That would have probably guaranteed us a draw even under Russell...You can't blame luck when you hand the opposition goals like those though.

1

bryanK added 19:06 - Nov 25 Decided not to go and left my seat empty. I love my team but cannot watch what SR and RM are doing to my team that I have support for 70 years. In that time there have been more downs that ups but I am totally bored and fed up with the tripe I am forced to watch. The 1958/59 season and the Branfoot era were bad but this is worse if that is possible. I will return for the next home game but I now realise they are totally not interested in any supporter view. This clown Steve Martin sorry Russell has no concept of how depressing his type of football is and if anyone else tells us they play great football I will totally lose the will.

3

pintsizedsaint added 22:09 - Nov 25 My two pennies worth on Liverpool: - McCarthy completely at fault for first two goals. Yes we can point to our insistence on playing out etc. but RM would be expecting common sense. AM should have used his experience to see nothing short was on and allow formation to reset. 2nd goal was utterly hopeless positioning - berefit of confidence and match day experience. - We play well and have real potential. But we lack pace to fully enact RM’s style of play. Unless we find better in our squad or invest in Jan, this will not work. - I really suspect that we’re are hoping for stability and for the squad to click. Confidence plays a huge part in that, so the poor judgments and lack of rub of green is really hurting. However we just need a small run of games. - Longer term is to stick with this play strategy. That means RM whether you like it or not. I like that. It makes sense rather than constant change and upheaval. If we go down then so be it. But it’s pretty rubbish for remainder of season AND SR will have to ensure that we retain a core of players who actually can play this style.

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