| Non QPR - Manchester Arena 23:48 - May 22 with 34334 views | Bakes |
Something's going down, reports of an explosion and confirmed deaths.
Bloody hell |  |
| With Faith And Courage Comes Glory |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 23:19 - May 25 with 2754 views | CliveWilsonSaid |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 23:04 - May 25 by Brightonhoop |
Yep, Erdogans a lunatic and Trump facilitates him.
Selling arms to Saudi is no longer viable given those arms are used to kill civilians including children in Yemen. I keep thinking about Tianamen Sqaure in China, about people being murdered by the state, in far away places that have no protection in Law. The lust for life must be enormous.
The US strike on an air base with cruise misiles in March killed 105 civilians, including children. That's not collaterall, that's 105 men, women and children going about their business under a gross regime and theatre of war because they cannot get out, trying to survive on a daily basis. Murdered. I really struggle with that. There is nothing glamorous in US Warships in the Med launching missiles killing everyday folk. [Post edited 25 May 2017 23:12]
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You didn't bomb any airbases or kill any children mate. You don't need to struggle with anything. It's none of our faults. |  |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 23:33 - May 25 with 2730 views | MrSheen |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 23:04 - May 25 by Brightonhoop |
Yep, Erdogans a lunatic and Trump facilitates him.
Selling arms to Saudi is no longer viable given those arms are used to kill civilians including children in Yemen. I keep thinking about Tianamen Sqaure in China, about people being murdered by the state, in far away places that have no protection in Law. The lust for life must be enormous.
The US strike on an air base with cruise misiles in March killed 105 civilians, including children. That's not collaterall, that's 105 men, women and children going about their business under a gross regime and theatre of war because they cannot get out, trying to survive on a daily basis. Murdered. I really struggle with that. There is nothing glamorous in US Warships in the Med launching missiles killing everyday folk. [Post edited 25 May 2017 23:12]
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At the risk of being accused of nit-picking, where did you get the figure of 105 civilian casualties? The most I can find is 9. The US claimed it was in punishment for a chemical attack that killed 74 civilians. Whether the US missiles prevented further chemical attacks, who knows?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Shayrat_missile_strike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khan_Shaykhun_chemical_attack |  | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 23:33 - May 25 with 2729 views | DannytheR |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 22:29 - May 25 by BromleyHoop |
These are of course points of interest but again you are looking at this from a point of view that Western secular democracy's are in some way at fault; we're the ones who are behaving in an inappropriate manner. We sell arms to Ecuador and The Solomon Islands, that is a completely separate issue. Erdogan is a total psycho and he truly scares me but you seem determined to excuse away Islamic terrorism as being the fault of the West when it totally, absolutely isn't.
However before we start putting the world to rights let's get our own house in order first. |
It doesn't do you any favours to misrepresent what other people are saying. I'm obviously not "excusing away" Islamic terrorism, and it's out of order to suggest I am.
What I'm saying, pretty clearly, is that as well as working to eliminate terrorists on the ground, we also need to consider whether we should be actively making deals with governments with proven records of supporting them. It's not just a question of ethics —Â or as you put it "putting the world to rights." It's also a practical point about the one hand undoing the work the other hand is doing trying stop kids getting blown up again.
We all want an end to that. That's why I don't think we should be in business with (and selling arms to) the same people who help bankroll and facilitate it. |  | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 23:51 - May 25 with 2698 views | Brightonhoop |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 23:19 - May 25 by CliveWilsonSaid |
You didn't bomb any airbases or kill any children mate. You don't need to struggle with anything. It's none of our faults. |
No but others want to kill us as a consquence. |  | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 23:57 - May 25 with 2680 views | Brightonhoop |
No,you're not nit picking.
I dont rely on BBC any more but it was a breaking news report earlier today. Odd google does not find it.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40051640
They did not report 1 dead or seek to justify it, just reported it for once. 105 questionably dead. Children to it seems. | | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 00:02 - May 26 with 2669 views | Brightonhoop |
My bad.It was a different operation that killed 105 civilians in that hell hole we have not heard about before.
Well done Beeb. | | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 07:40 - May 26 with 2583 views | Hayesender |
Football fan.
Passports taken off them.....
Banned from city centres.....
Not allowed to associate with certain individuals.....
Not allowed to talk to certain individuals....
Told where to go (no questions asked)....
Followed throughout the day.....
Monitored on social media....
Mobile phones and computers taken off them....
Front doors taken off the hinges at 6 in the morning.....
Terrorist.
Absolutely none of the above.... |  |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 10:54 - May 26 with 2433 views | JamesB1979 |
i can't work out who hates our country more, the Islamic extremists or the extreme left who blame our government for everything. |  | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:45 - May 26 with 2396 views | TheChef |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 10:54 - May 26 by JamesB1979 |
i can't work out who hates our country more, the Islamic extremists or the extreme left who blame our government for everything. |
Who mentioned anything about hating this country?
I love living in this country, I'm just very worried about what direction it is heading in under this current government (and that's not saying any alternative will be massively better). |  |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:46 - May 26 with 2392 views | Northernr |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 10:54 - May 26 by JamesB1979 |
i can't work out who hates our country more, the Islamic extremists or the extreme left who blame our government for everything. |
Really?! It's not hard. |  | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:49 - May 26 with 2378 views | JamesB1979 |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:46 - May 26 by Northernr |
Really?! It's not hard. |
So you've never spoken to people who think actions of our government are equally as bad if not worse than actions of Islamic State? | | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:00 - May 26 with 2356 views | Northernr |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:49 - May 26 by JamesB1979 |
So you've never spoken to people who think actions of our government are equally as bad if not worse than actions of Islamic State? |
Personally no, but that's not what you said. You said ppl who question foreign policy hate Britain as much as people who want to blow up kids at a pop concert, which is absolute fcking horseshit. | | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:59 - May 26 with 2270 views | BromleyHoop |
Bus load of Christian children attacked in Egypt today, only 3 apparently survived. Radical Islamists are intent on wiping out anyone who is not Muslim. They've decimated the Jewish population across the Middle East and North Africa over the last 100 years (look up the figures, they're truly shocking) and they're now in the process of doing it with Christians in Egypt, Iraq and Syria. Not to mention Yazidis who have been the subject of a systematic genocide and enslavement.
It is actually rather lazy thinking to buy the idea that Corbyn and others are espousing about Western policy in Muslim countries being responsible for terrorism. It's a clusterfeck, don't get me wrong, but it's not why certain Muslims are slaughtering their way across the world. |  |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 15:28 - May 26 with 2153 views | FredManRave |
An informed understanding of the causes of terrorism is an essential part of an effective response that will protect the security of our people, that fights rather than fuels terrorism. Many experts, have pointed out the connections between wars that we have been involved in, or supported, or fought, in other countries and terrorism here at home. That assessment in no way reduces the guilt of those who attack our children. Those terrorists will forever be reviled and implacably held to account for their actions. The blame is with the terrorists, but if we are to protect our people we must be honest about what threatens our security. |  |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 15:41 - May 26 with 2130 views | TacticalR |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:59 - May 26 by BromleyHoop |
Bus load of Christian children attacked in Egypt today, only 3 apparently survived. Radical Islamists are intent on wiping out anyone who is not Muslim. They've decimated the Jewish population across the Middle East and North Africa over the last 100 years (look up the figures, they're truly shocking) and they're now in the process of doing it with Christians in Egypt, Iraq and Syria. Not to mention Yazidis who have been the subject of a systematic genocide and enslavement.
It is actually rather lazy thinking to buy the idea that Corbyn and others are espousing about Western policy in Muslim countries being responsible for terrorism. It's a clusterfeck, don't get me wrong, but it's not why certain Muslims are slaughtering their way across the world. |
Wasn't it the Christians who proved rather effective at Jewish population reduction in Europe (using the most advanced industrial methods)? |  |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 15:46 - May 26 with 2109 views | TheBlob |
So how does the 1400 years of Sunni v Shia slaughter fit in with the white middle class guilt on here?
Cheers,
Gareth. |  |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 15:59 - May 26 with 2078 views | BromleyHoop |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 15:41 - May 26 by TacticalR |
Wasn't it the Christians who proved rather effective at Jewish population reduction in Europe (using the most advanced industrial methods)? |
Cheap shot really. You may have conveniently forgotten that Christians went to war to defeat the Nazis. Unlike the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who was an active supporter of the Nazis and recruited Bosnian Muslims into the SS. The vast majority of those non Christians who are currently fighting IS are either Kurdish or Shia Muslims both of whom have ulterior motives for fighting IS. | |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 17:07 - May 26 with 2036 views | JamesB1979 |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 15:41 - May 26 by TacticalR |
Wasn't it the Christians who proved rather effective at Jewish population reduction in Europe (using the most advanced industrial methods)? |
Nazis killed Catholics, Gypsies and others. They didn't limit themselves to the Jews. Nazis were definitely not christian | | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 17:13 - May 26 with 2027 views | FDC |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 15:59 - May 26 by BromleyHoop |
Cheap shot really. You may have conveniently forgotten that Christians went to war to defeat the Nazis. Unlike the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who was an active supporter of the Nazis and recruited Bosnian Muslims into the SS. The vast majority of those non Christians who are currently fighting IS are either Kurdish or Shia Muslims both of whom have ulterior motives for fighting IS. |
In a tough field this post is a strong contender for most mental thing I've read recently. I'm compelled to respond to it but I'm honestly struggling to know where to start. Are you really using 'Christian' as a signifier for 20th C political agency? Are you saying fighting the Nazis was a Christian cause?! This is straight out of the Britain First playbook tbh.
I'm completely bamboozled by "ulterior motives" too. What would be good Christian motives for fighting ISIS? I personally know people who are involved with fighting ISIS in Rojava, I think their motives are pretty up front: rid the territory of fascists and build something better. |  | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 19:49 - May 26 with 1978 views | BromleyHoop |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 17:13 - May 26 by FDC |
In a tough field this post is a strong contender for most mental thing I've read recently. I'm compelled to respond to it but I'm honestly struggling to know where to start. Are you really using 'Christian' as a signifier for 20th C political agency? Are you saying fighting the Nazis was a Christian cause?! This is straight out of the Britain First playbook tbh.
I'm completely bamboozled by "ulterior motives" too. What would be good Christian motives for fighting ISIS? I personally know people who are involved with fighting ISIS in Rojava, I think their motives are pretty up front: rid the territory of fascists and build something better. |
You should read the post I was responding to which brought up the subject of the 'Christian' Nazi extermination of Jews. I didn't.
Regarding your second point I wholeheartedly support Kurdish forces in their fight against IS, Turkey and Iran and also follow with keen interest the fortunes of Brits like Macer Gifford who has served with Kurdish forces in the last few years. But you cannot tell me that in defeating IS the Kurds are doing what they can to promote their own cause and land grab during these times of anarchy in order to expand their boundaries. I don't particularly blame them in that but this battle serves their purposes both in terms of their own proto state and the financial and military support they receive from the US. Ditto Shia Muslims who are a de facto Iranian fighting force increasing Iran's influence in the region.
How is that in any way bonkers? [Post edited 26 May 2017 20:16]
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:07 - Jun 2 with 1706 views | TacticalR |
I am surprised that this article which appeared last week has not received more attention:
'Sorted' by MI5: How UK government sent British-Libyans to fight Gaddafi
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/sorted-mi5-how-uk-government-sent-british-liby
The curious thing is that Britain completely reversed its policy towards Libya in 2011. Britain had previously backed Gaddafi, but in 2011 Britain, France and Qatar decided to assist in the overthrow of Gaddafi. In March 2011 SAS men from E Squadron and M16 officers who had landed in Libya were detained by local people and taken to the opposition National Transitional Council (NTC) in Benghazi. 'This debacle in Benghazi rapidly became even more embarrassing, as the Gaddafi government released an intercepted phone call in which a British diplomat pleaded with the NTC for the team's release.'
Inside story of the UK's secret mission to beat Gaddafi
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16573516
In 2004, during the period when the British government backed Gaddafi, Abdul Hakim Belhaj, an opponent of Gaddafi, was seized in Thailand in a joint UK-US operation and handed over by to Gaddafi by the CIA.
'Two weeks later, Tony Blair paid his first visit to the country, embracing Gaddafi and declaring that Libya had recognised "a common cause, with us, in the fight against al-Qaida extremism and terrorism". At the same time, in London, the Anglo-Dutch oil company Shell announced that it had signed a £110m deal for gas exploration rights off the Libyan coast.'
Jack Straw and UK government must face kidnap and torture claims, court rules
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/17/libyan-dissident-abdel-hakim-belha
The seizure of Belhaj and other Gaddafi opponents led to a major fall out between MI5 and MI6:
'Baroness Manningham-Buller, head of MI5 from 2002 to 2007, was so furious when she discovered the role MI6 played in abductions to Libya - which led to torture - she banned its staff from her department at Thames House.'
MI5, MI6 suffered 'serious rift' over Libya rendition flights & torture
https://www.rt.com/uk/345025-mi5-mi6-rendition-libya/ | |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:26 - Jun 2 with 1676 views | FDC |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:07 - Jun 2 by TacticalR |
I am surprised that this article which appeared last week has not received more attention:
'Sorted' by MI5: How UK government sent British-Libyans to fight Gaddafi
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/sorted-mi5-how-uk-government-sent-british-liby
The curious thing is that Britain completely reversed its policy towards Libya in 2011. Britain had previously backed Gaddafi, but in 2011 Britain, France and Qatar decided to assist in the overthrow of Gaddafi. In March 2011 SAS men from E Squadron and M16 officers who had landed in Libya were detained by local people and taken to the opposition National Transitional Council (NTC) in Benghazi. 'This debacle in Benghazi rapidly became even more embarrassing, as the Gaddafi government released an intercepted phone call in which a British diplomat pleaded with the NTC for the team's release.'
Inside story of the UK's secret mission to beat Gaddafi
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16573516
In 2004, during the period when the British government backed Gaddafi, Abdul Hakim Belhaj, an opponent of Gaddafi, was seized in Thailand in a joint UK-US operation and handed over by to Gaddafi by the CIA.
'Two weeks later, Tony Blair paid his first visit to the country, embracing Gaddafi and declaring that Libya had recognised "a common cause, with us, in the fight against al-Qaida extremism and terrorism". At the same time, in London, the Anglo-Dutch oil company Shell announced that it had signed a £110m deal for gas exploration rights off the Libyan coast.'
Jack Straw and UK government must face kidnap and torture claims, court rules
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/17/libyan-dissident-abdel-hakim-belha
The seizure of Belhaj and other Gaddafi opponents led to a major fall out between MI5 and MI6:
'Baroness Manningham-Buller, head of MI5 from 2002 to 2007, was so furious when she discovered the role MI6 played in abductions to Libya - which led to torture - she banned its staff from her department at Thames House.'
MI5, MI6 suffered 'serious rift' over Libya rendition flights & torture
https://www.rt.com/uk/345025-mi5-mi6-rendition-libya/ |
Indeed - May should be getting absolutely destroyed by this story. | | | |
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