| Non QPR - Manchester Arena 23:48 - May 22 with 34303 views | Bakes |
Something's going down, reports of an explosion and confirmed deaths.
Bloody hell |  |
| With Faith And Courage Comes Glory |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:25 - May 24 with 2533 views | paulparker |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:03 - May 24 by johncharles |
The guy who shot Jo Cox was British. White and Christian.
Close their places of worship and deport them that's what I say. |
Raul Moet was white and killed a person I don't get what your saying
did the bloke who killed jo cox go to church and become a radicalised Christian, did his vicar become a hate preacher , did he go to a radicalised place like say surrey and become a Christian soldier and learn how to kill and maim
are there gangs of Christians at churches preaching hate and getting grooming gangs
no he was a nut who committed a terrible act , but if you truly believe that its the same problem as what's happening at the moment then you really are a bit sad and deluded or owen jones in disguise
blowing up kids at a pop concert, running people over in a car , blowing people up on the tube or machine gunning down families on a beach , is no comparison to some odd job killing an MP |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:27 - May 24 with 2523 views | QPR_John |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:03 - May 24 by johncharles |
The guy who shot Jo Cox was British. White and Christian.
Close their places of worship and deport them that's what I say. |
That post feels me with dread for the future if that is the level of debate then we might as well all give up.
This thread is no different from the one after Westminster, after the Paris bombings after every terrorist atrocity. Nothing changes nothing is done, after the next tragedy we will get a similar thread. Questions have to be asked and maybe unsavoury decisions have to be made. Can a society that wishes to adopt civilised behaviour in all areas ever protect itself from such events. I think we can all agree this latest act changes things more than any that has gone before. These were children the bomber knew they were children, children were deliberately targeted. [Post edited 24 May 2017 11:30]
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:32 - May 24 with 2506 views | johnhoop |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:27 - May 24 by QPR_John |
That post feels me with dread for the future if that is the level of debate then we might as well all give up.
This thread is no different from the one after Westminster, after the Paris bombings after every terrorist atrocity. Nothing changes nothing is done, after the next tragedy we will get a similar thread. Questions have to be asked and maybe unsavoury decisions have to be made. Can a society that wishes to adopt civilised behaviour in all areas ever protect itself from such events. I think we can all agree this latest act changes things more than any that has gone before. These were children the bomber knew they were children, children were deliberately targeted. [Post edited 24 May 2017 11:30]
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I think you'll probably find that John Charles' post was meant to be heavily ironic, unless I'm very much mistaken. | | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:36 - May 24 with 2486 views | DannytheR |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:25 - May 24 by paulparker |
Raul Moet was white and killed a person I don't get what your saying
did the bloke who killed jo cox go to church and become a radicalised Christian, did his vicar become a hate preacher , did he go to a radicalised place like say surrey and become a Christian soldier and learn how to kill and maim
are there gangs of Christians at churches preaching hate and getting grooming gangs
no he was a nut who committed a terrible act , but if you truly believe that its the same problem as what's happening at the moment then you really are a bit sad and deluded or owen jones in disguise
blowing up kids at a pop concert, running people over in a car , blowing people up on the tube or machine gunning down families on a beach , is no comparison to some odd job killing an MP |
No, he had documented connections to Britain First, and pretending her murder wasn't political and just the work of a random oddball makes you exactly the same as the "apologists" you spend so much time on here mouthing off about.
Do you ever stop and take a breath? You were on here yesterday saying Jason Manford made you puke for breaking down in tears about the bombing, and then it turns out one of the people missing was a family friend. Turned out this morning the man who was missing is dead. So it he still making you puke? Or is he all right to weep now? You're the one with the all the answers after all, aren't you? Or is it someone else's turn not to live up to your big brave fighting words typed out in your fking office on the fking internet? |  | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:48 - May 24 with 2426 views | bob566 |
this guy could have been flagged.
Reading his background. He dropped out of college. That should have been flagged to police. He had a verbal in a mosque with an iman who was renouncing terrorism. That should have been flagged to the police. "hello Manchester police. we've got a guy down here giving it large to an iman who is saying that violence and terrorism is wrong".
Then the guy travelled to Libya. Not much in that but should be noted as there are small factions of isis and al quaeda there according to the press.
Then he travelled to Syria. There's the most obvious one.
I mean there's poor Syrian refugees marching across Europe en masse to get out of the place and this guy is trying to get in.
Then when he got back he was becoming more detached from his community.
All easily seen now I know after the attack. | | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:51 - May 24 with 2411 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
Well it turns out this scumbag was known and as he had just returned from Libya where the parents now live, this looks like a failure on the part of security I'm not saying it's an easy job but there are signs they took their eye off the ball. |  |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:51 - May 24 with 2404 views | paulparker |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:36 - May 24 by DannytheR |
No, he had documented connections to Britain First, and pretending her murder wasn't political and just the work of a random oddball makes you exactly the same as the "apologists" you spend so much time on here mouthing off about.
Do you ever stop and take a breath? You were on here yesterday saying Jason Manford made you puke for breaking down in tears about the bombing, and then it turns out one of the people missing was a family friend. Turned out this morning the man who was missing is dead. So it he still making you puke? Or is he all right to weep now? You're the one with the all the answers after all, aren't you? Or is it someone else's turn not to live up to your big brave fighting words typed out in your fking office on the fking internet? |
im the one with all the answers, no hardly
I was asked by Baz what would I do , I told him , ive yet to hear any "left " views on how to stop little kids being blown up, perhaps you could let us know what you would do
as for manford yeah perhaps I was a bit ott and perhaps a bit insensitive to his situation
I reacted to the scores pf pointless celebrity drivel saying "love and peace is the answer"
you seem very obsessed with jo cox , was she your pin up ? , or is that the only stick you have to beat people with to a different view to yours , its not the same thing there is no comparison to what happened to her or what happened in Manchester, for one thing there are possibly 3 other assailants involved hardly the act of a "lone wolf"
oh and who the fcuk are Britain First ?
as for fighting talk, your the one on here effing and jeffing , throwing out your personal insults , but that's you down to a tee isn't it , | |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:05 - May 24 with 2334 views | Brightonhoop |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:51 - May 24 by paulparker |
im the one with all the answers, no hardly
I was asked by Baz what would I do , I told him , ive yet to hear any "left " views on how to stop little kids being blown up, perhaps you could let us know what you would do
as for manford yeah perhaps I was a bit ott and perhaps a bit insensitive to his situation
I reacted to the scores pf pointless celebrity drivel saying "love and peace is the answer"
you seem very obsessed with jo cox , was she your pin up ? , or is that the only stick you have to beat people with to a different view to yours , its not the same thing there is no comparison to what happened to her or what happened in Manchester, for one thing there are possibly 3 other assailants involved hardly the act of a "lone wolf"
oh and who the fcuk are Britain First ?
as for fighting talk, your the one on here effing and jeffing , throwing out your personal insults , but that's you down to a tee isn't it , |
Closing the mosques etc is exactly what the terrorists want, it will radicalise the whole population and will become very difficult for security to monitor.
The Sun screaming away are doing a grand job for Isis. The tipping point is maybe two or three attacks away? And the tabloids and Hopkins do the rest for them, whipping up a new frenzy of hatred.
There's no easy answers obviously but stupid knee jerk reactions and intensifying hatreds wont work on these headcases. He targetted children because he was bright enough to know the reaction it would bring. |  | | |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:07 - May 24 with 2319 views | daveB |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:48 - May 24 by bob566 |
this guy could have been flagged.
Reading his background. He dropped out of college. That should have been flagged to police. He had a verbal in a mosque with an iman who was renouncing terrorism. That should have been flagged to the police. "hello Manchester police. we've got a guy down here giving it large to an iman who is saying that violence and terrorism is wrong".
Then the guy travelled to Libya. Not much in that but should be noted as there are small factions of isis and al quaeda there according to the press.
Then he travelled to Syria. There's the most obvious one.
I mean there's poor Syrian refugees marching across Europe en masse to get out of the place and this guy is trying to get in.
Then when he got back he was becoming more detached from his community.
All easily seen now I know after the attack. |
one of the reports last night suggested his Mum had warned the police that he was acting strangely as well so that needs to be looked, if people are being watched surely there is something the police can do such as tagging to make it easier to keep an eye on them |  | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:21 - May 24 with 2276 views | johnhoop |
Way back on the first page of this thread Bazza replied to one of Paul's posts saying what can we actually do in response to this and I made the suggestion that at the very least we could stop any more Jihadis returning from the Middle East even if it meant changing the law to do it. It wouldn't neutralize the hundreds that are already here but at least it's a step in the right direction.
In Clive's post he seemed to think this was sensible but is their no wider agreement on such a relatively moderate step as this? Because the attitude from most posters on here is that we just sit around and wait for the next one to happen,as it undoubtedly will. | | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:25 - May 24 with 2263 views | johncharles |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 11:32 - May 24 by johnhoop |
I think you'll probably find that John Charles' post was meant to be heavily ironic, unless I'm very much mistaken. |
Thanks John. |  |
| Strong and stable my arse. |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:33 - May 24 with 2230 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
More names of victims being released I see so far 5 mums killed while waiting for their kids
What hell for those children | |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:35 - May 24 with 2215 views | johncharles |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:21 - May 24 by johnhoop |
Way back on the first page of this thread Bazza replied to one of Paul's posts saying what can we actually do in response to this and I made the suggestion that at the very least we could stop any more Jihadis returning from the Middle East even if it meant changing the law to do it. It wouldn't neutralize the hundreds that are already here but at least it's a step in the right direction.
In Clive's post he seemed to think this was sensible but is their no wider agreement on such a relatively moderate step as this? Because the attitude from most posters on here is that we just sit around and wait for the next one to happen,as it undoubtedly will. |
I find it hard to believe we're letting them back in. If people are deluded enough to leave this country to join terrorist organisations in Syriah or wherever, let them go. But there's no coming back.
This has nothing to do with ordinary Muslim's travel arrangements. | |
| Strong and stable my arse. |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:37 - May 24 with 2212 views | runningman75 |
Wondering if suspects should be treated by military police rather than normal police. They want to create terror in their own country as most are British born. If these people choose to go to Syria and there are 3000 known extremists in the UK something needs to be done. I am fairly Liberal in viewpoint but I get annoyed when people go on about human rights for this scum as it devalues the left wing. | | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:39 - May 24 with 2197 views | FredManRave |
I obviously understand the point your making MrS regarding the fact that terrorism existed pre the 90-s but do you not think, as has been suggested, that our foreign poilcy in the middle east and that part of the woild has extremely exacerbated the terrorism situation that we now find ourselves living in. The consequences of the invasions, the bombing and murdering of thousands of innocent civilians in Afganistan and Iraq has resulted in the extreme increase of terrorism activity. Do you agree with that point?! |  |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 13:09 - May 24 with 2132 views | DannytheR |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:21 - May 24 by johnhoop |
Way back on the first page of this thread Bazza replied to one of Paul's posts saying what can we actually do in response to this and I made the suggestion that at the very least we could stop any more Jihadis returning from the Middle East even if it meant changing the law to do it. It wouldn't neutralize the hundreds that are already here but at least it's a step in the right direction.
In Clive's post he seemed to think this was sensible but is their no wider agreement on such a relatively moderate step as this? Because the attitude from most posters on here is that we just sit around and wait for the next one to happen,as it undoubtedly will. |
In reality, no-one wants to "sit around wait for the next to one to happen."
But returning jihadis don't turn up at Heathrow on an Easyjet from Mosul with black banners and machetes sticking out of their suitcases.
Flights in and out of Turkey are already very, very closely monitored, but now that the government have decided we need to foster our relationship with Erdogan, the pressure from that direction will be to go easier on travellers between the two countries. If you want to do something about that, you need be talking to Boris Johnson and Theresa May. | | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 13:26 - May 24 with 2064 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
I think the harsh reality is that we are going to have to get use to it happening unless you take things to extreme, which I'm not advocating. | |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 13:31 - May 24 with 2036 views | MrSheen |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 12:39 - May 24 by FredManRave |
I obviously understand the point your making MrS regarding the fact that terrorism existed pre the 90-s but do you not think, as has been suggested, that our foreign poilcy in the middle east and that part of the woild has extremely exacerbated the terrorism situation that we now find ourselves living in. The consequences of the invasions, the bombing and murdering of thousands of innocent civilians in Afganistan and Iraq has resulted in the extreme increase of terrorism activity. Do you agree with that point?! |
Struggling to answer this succinctly. Obviously we made things worse in Iraq. I tend not to see these as wars of imperialism, and others clearly disagree. The decision to intervene or not depends on how the last one worked out, so:
Somalia - intervened - disaster
Rwanda - didn't intervene - disaster
Yugoslavia - didn't intervene - disaster, then intervened - success
Kosovo - intervened - success
Afghanistan - intervened - initial success, then disaster
Iraq - intervened - disaster
Syria - didn't intervene - disaster, etc, etc
Plenty of people on here, and beyond, have their view filtered through their loathing of Western politics, and put the blame 100% on them for everything that happened, to the point of ignoring anything that contradicts that narrative. This unanimous condemnation grows with distance, but even the worst actions might be viewed differently on the ground. What do the Kurds think of Iraq2? What would Iraq have looked like if Saddam had died in his bed or been murdered by one of his sons? How would the 20th year of the Taliban government been marked in Afghanistan?
As it happens, I'm not in the lock-up-the-mosques camp. We are in a difficult position where we have a significant number of people in the country who identify with the Ummah rather than the country of their birth, and seem inclined to revenge indignities suffered by it at the hands of unbelievers on their fellow citizens, while being curiously indifferent about violence suffered by believers at the hands of other believers. But I want to live in a country with rights and liberties. |  | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 13:37 - May 24 with 2006 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 13:31 - May 24 by MrSheen |
Struggling to answer this succinctly. Obviously we made things worse in Iraq. I tend not to see these as wars of imperialism, and others clearly disagree. The decision to intervene or not depends on how the last one worked out, so:
Somalia - intervened - disaster
Rwanda - didn't intervene - disaster
Yugoslavia - didn't intervene - disaster, then intervened - success
Kosovo - intervened - success
Afghanistan - intervened - initial success, then disaster
Iraq - intervened - disaster
Syria - didn't intervene - disaster, etc, etc
Plenty of people on here, and beyond, have their view filtered through their loathing of Western politics, and put the blame 100% on them for everything that happened, to the point of ignoring anything that contradicts that narrative. This unanimous condemnation grows with distance, but even the worst actions might be viewed differently on the ground. What do the Kurds think of Iraq2? What would Iraq have looked like if Saddam had died in his bed or been murdered by one of his sons? How would the 20th year of the Taliban government been marked in Afghanistan?
As it happens, I'm not in the lock-up-the-mosques camp. We are in a difficult position where we have a significant number of people in the country who identify with the Ummah rather than the country of their birth, and seem inclined to revenge indignities suffered by it at the hands of unbelievers on their fellow citizens, while being curiously indifferent about violence suffered by believers at the hands of other believers. But I want to live in a country with rights and liberties. |
Some people will argue that they failed as did not go for all out war but tried to police them.
But then all out war did not work in vietnam | |
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 13:43 - May 24 with 1980 views | TGRRRSSS |
Whole thing is sickening, not sure what can be done I know one thing though if we take out all human rights it wont be just a few nutters who get locked up..... and worse... |  | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 13:46 - May 24 with 1968 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 13:31 - May 24 by MrSheen |
Struggling to answer this succinctly. Obviously we made things worse in Iraq. I tend not to see these as wars of imperialism, and others clearly disagree. The decision to intervene or not depends on how the last one worked out, so:
Somalia - intervened - disaster
Rwanda - didn't intervene - disaster
Yugoslavia - didn't intervene - disaster, then intervened - success
Kosovo - intervened - success
Afghanistan - intervened - initial success, then disaster
Iraq - intervened - disaster
Syria - didn't intervene - disaster, etc, etc
Plenty of people on here, and beyond, have their view filtered through their loathing of Western politics, and put the blame 100% on them for everything that happened, to the point of ignoring anything that contradicts that narrative. This unanimous condemnation grows with distance, but even the worst actions might be viewed differently on the ground. What do the Kurds think of Iraq2? What would Iraq have looked like if Saddam had died in his bed or been murdered by one of his sons? How would the 20th year of the Taliban government been marked in Afghanistan?
As it happens, I'm not in the lock-up-the-mosques camp. We are in a difficult position where we have a significant number of people in the country who identify with the Ummah rather than the country of their birth, and seem inclined to revenge indignities suffered by it at the hands of unbelievers on their fellow citizens, while being curiously indifferent about violence suffered by believers at the hands of other believers. But I want to live in a country with rights and liberties. |
Believe it or not I have sympathy with your view.
But, as a bottom line, we should not put a military foot in any country unless invited to do so by a legitimate and democratic government or the UN.
Also you forgot Sierra Leone, which was also a success. |  | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 13:49 - May 24 with 1953 views | paulparker |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 13:31 - May 24 by MrSheen |
Struggling to answer this succinctly. Obviously we made things worse in Iraq. I tend not to see these as wars of imperialism, and others clearly disagree. The decision to intervene or not depends on how the last one worked out, so:
Somalia - intervened - disaster
Rwanda - didn't intervene - disaster
Yugoslavia - didn't intervene - disaster, then intervened - success
Kosovo - intervened - success
Afghanistan - intervened - initial success, then disaster
Iraq - intervened - disaster
Syria - didn't intervene - disaster, etc, etc
Plenty of people on here, and beyond, have their view filtered through their loathing of Western politics, and put the blame 100% on them for everything that happened, to the point of ignoring anything that contradicts that narrative. This unanimous condemnation grows with distance, but even the worst actions might be viewed differently on the ground. What do the Kurds think of Iraq2? What would Iraq have looked like if Saddam had died in his bed or been murdered by one of his sons? How would the 20th year of the Taliban government been marked in Afghanistan?
As it happens, I'm not in the lock-up-the-mosques camp. We are in a difficult position where we have a significant number of people in the country who identify with the Ummah rather than the country of their birth, and seem inclined to revenge indignities suffered by it at the hands of unbelievers on their fellow citizens, while being curiously indifferent about violence suffered by believers at the hands of other believers. But I want to live in a country with rights and liberties. |
But I want to live in a country with rights and liberties.
we all do Mr Sheen that's the British way of life , we in this country are quite simple folk, we potter in our sheds, we do the garden , go for strolls in the countryside we go to work, pay the bills, follow hopeless football teams, we try and get along and then at the end of the day hope for a few quid for the odd pint
but things need to and have to change , this country has changed and its not for the better either , its little girls at a pop concert now I said earlier that 30 years ago this would be the most outrageous thing in the world , now its becoming the norm and expected, it shouldn't be expected
we need to be asking the questions of why kids who were born here from mostly families who initially were immigrants to this country , why do they hate our way of life, why do they want to maim and kill , we have to get to the root of the problems and be tough in how we deal with it | |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 13:58 - May 24 with 1920 views | MrSheen |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 13:46 - May 24 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Believe it or not I have sympathy with your view.
But, as a bottom line, we should not put a military foot in any country unless invited to do so by a legitimate and democratic government or the UN.
Also you forgot Sierra Leone, which was also a success. |
Yes, didn't mention it but it was when "liberal interventionism" was on a roll after the perceived dereliction of duty at Srebrenica and Rwanda. Works until it doesn't.
The first Iraq War was UN approved. The Afghan occupation was taken over by the UN after the invasion- the US claimed their original action was self-defence and justified by UN charters. | | | |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 14:15 - May 24 with 1850 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 13:49 - May 24 by paulparker |
But I want to live in a country with rights and liberties.
we all do Mr Sheen that's the British way of life , we in this country are quite simple folk, we potter in our sheds, we do the garden , go for strolls in the countryside we go to work, pay the bills, follow hopeless football teams, we try and get along and then at the end of the day hope for a few quid for the odd pint
but things need to and have to change , this country has changed and its not for the better either , its little girls at a pop concert now I said earlier that 30 years ago this would be the most outrageous thing in the world , now its becoming the norm and expected, it shouldn't be expected
we need to be asking the questions of why kids who were born here from mostly families who initially were immigrants to this country , why do they hate our way of life, why do they want to maim and kill , we have to get to the root of the problems and be tough in how we deal with it |
I think if the Eu referendum was held today the leavers would win by a landslide
Leaves don't just want the borders controlled from those in the EU
Most people agreed with Cameron on how many so called refugees we let in.
I've always thought that Merkel opening the floodgates pushed many in to voting leave [Post edited 24 May 2017 14:19]
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| Non QPR - Manchester Arena on 14:24 - May 24 with 1821 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
Mother who was a police woman dead, husband critical, and the 2 kids injured
20 are in a critical condition, and some have lost limbs.
12 children aged under 16 [Post edited 24 May 2017 14:28]
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