| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts 23:22 - Aug 7 with 18692 views | KeithHaynes |
A young man who wants to play football.
Sunday evening supplement. From 5pm.
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 12:13 - Aug 11 with 1527 views | PatchesOHoulihan |
Exactly the best with your tools - this includes the managers tools
As we went along it seemed Cooper lost a few of his tools including his confidence to get our team playing on the front foot.
We were a better team at times last year than the end of season borefest suggested and that was down to the manager. I believe he could have done better if he hadn't lost his bottle.
The problem sometimes is some people look at short termism and quatify it as success where in the long run it causes more harm than good (this is a general thing and not specifically pointed at the Cooper fans) but the best thing I can think to equate it to is the differing opinion on Monks season when we finished 8th in the Prem - some like myself consider it a failure as we could see the cracks coming which would make things more difficult in the future and many said it was a success because of where we finished : Both are correct of course but its what side of the fence you fall. You seem to think the only thing that matters to a club or supporter is what you think and I happen to disagree. | |
| This is Patches O'Houlihan saying "Take care of your balls, and they'll take care of you." |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 12:37 - Aug 11 with 1482 views | Fireboy2 |
We all have our moments don't we Doc 😉 | | | |
| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 12:50 - Aug 11 with 1460 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Absolutely including the managers tools. I don’t think our game plan was ever to be “on the front foot” with Cooper, not in the sense many would recognise as such. So it isn’t anything we “lost”.
The game plan was to soak up pressure, have a solid defensive foundation and take our chances. Our clean sheet record attests to that. We did that extremely successfully and as a result achieved far more than anyone (or most people) realistically thought at the start of each season.
Monks season was working off the signings the previous manager made, once he put his own stamp on it we declined and he was sacked when we were 17th winning 1 of our last 13 looking absolutely rudderless.
Under Cooper, he created his own team with his own key players he brought in and we got progression every year. He left us after finishing 4th.
It’s nothing to do with what I think, it’s what I know to be the case. What’s best for the club is finishing as high as we possibly can and using the tools we have available in the best way to achieve that. Sacrificing that just to entertain you is never what this club is going to be about - nor should it. [Post edited 11 Aug 2021 12:54]
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 13:36 - Aug 11 with 1411 views | PatchesOHoulihan |
"It’s nothing to do with what I think, it’s what I know to be the case" - Thats a pretty arrogant statement and very short term
I used to have a manager like you once - he didn't last long [Post edited 11 Aug 2021 13:37]
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| This is Patches O'Houlihan saying "Take care of your balls, and they'll take care of you." |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 13:42 - Aug 11 with 1397 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
I looks to me that JP broke some team rules or obligations in his first week, Being late perhaps or breaking the club dress code something of that nature. It could of been uninspired training of course.
Remember JP was a fixed as a squad player at PSV with little prospect of playing or even getting on the bench. At Swansea he is expected to play and therefore expected to train as if he is playing. [Post edited 11 Aug 2021 13:47]
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 13:45 - Aug 11 with 1386 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Sounds like he was rather sensible, It’s not arrogant at all.
I know that the club value success over entertaining football, it’s not a guess. That’s just common sense. If it turns out that we are sacrificing our league finishes to make our games more exciting, then if you want to talk about managers that don’t last long… you can guess the rest.
The way the owners are going to get a return is by getting to the Premier League and selling the club at an enhanced price in the future in the hope that the Premier League increases its TV revenue package.
Are you suggesting that isn’t the case and you think Levien has suddenly turned into a super fan and just wants to be entertained by us? If you do then that’s daft.
I’m afraid what the club wants and what you may want aren’t necessarily the same thing, whether that sits well with you or not is largely irrelevant. | |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 13:53 - Aug 11 with 1367 views | PatchesOHoulihan |
My argument is that long term success is more important than short term success. Many teams have achieved short term success by being tight at the back and with a high percentage of shot conversion however it’s very rarely sustainable.
Maybe it’s the romantic in me because we’ve done it before. I may be wrong but not many teams have gone up and stayed up playing the brand of football we played last year as good teams can work it out.
Being entertained is just something that I enjoy as a fan and in my years watching our more entertaining sides have generally been the more successful (with obvious expections) despite a couple of good finishes in the seasons we were poor to watch. | |
| This is Patches O'Houlihan saying "Take care of your balls, and they'll take care of you." |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 13:59 - Aug 11 with 1359 views | vetchonian |
The issue is during those years you talk about we had an ownership model which was different.
We were succesful as we got promoted...then we were a middish table PL side playing "attractive " football we won the Capitol One cup and then despite having Laudrup as manager our league form suffered....I believe his focus on his second season was on Europe...out the n owners panicked as they believed they may fall out of the PL and thier "golden goose" would be cooked..... | |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 14:02 - Aug 11 with 1351 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Well of course long term success is better than short term success, who has said otherwise?
Under Cooper we progressed under his whole reign, from start to finish. From 10th to 6th to 4th. Two years back to back play off finishes isn’t really “short term”. That’s longer than the average length of managerial stint at our club for the best part of two decades and was successful for the whole tenure of it.
We have had long term success playing tiki taka 15 years ago, but the circumstances were vastly different, the stars aligned and we had a squad and a manager capable of doing it to a superior level. But we have done it once in our history and even that had a shelf life. Nobody is saying it’s impossible to do it again, only that it’s unlikely.
Playing a certain way doesn’t guarantee long term success, far from it. So the point being made is that if the club is suffering in the league because the team isn’t suited to this style of play then it will be binned off. The fans will push it out as will the owners, regardless of how entertaining our matches are, unless it comes with a certain level of success then it won’t stay.
That is the point that I know, because it’s common sense. Our owners aren’t in it because they are Swansea fans, they are in it for profit. Whatever gets the best chance of delivering that we will do. | |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 14:08 - Aug 11 with 1350 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
Cooper was getting results with boring football and 3 or 4 star players and elite loans. It was clear to most and even to Cooper himself he could only get the cub promoted with the parachutes and his favoured players. Thee was no scope for incorporating young players other than Cabango.
Levein realising that the club would need to move on from 'Cooperball' once the money and elite loans were gone. A new long term approach was required. The club has been stocked with 19-22 year olds and Martin has added one more. Levien realises these players need to improve and develop under the playing style developed under the 'Jenkinista regime'. Players can kick on a lot after 22-24 years.
It is pompous of Welsh people to promote Levien as a man of poor judgement of football matters. Swansea city had a Cooperball 'Plan A' and now a coherent 'Plan B' with a progressive possession game under Martin and a young athletic squad with a back bone of solid pros in Roberts, Grimes, Bidwell, Fulton, Smith, Patterson and Lowe.
The US owners have learned some tough lessons but are injecting cash and do understand the club ethos. They supported all their managers within know financial constraints. | |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 14:16 - Aug 11 with 1333 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Boring to certain people, not boring to all. I loved the last two seasons, I found it incredibly exciting to be competing at that level and being one of the best sides in the division. I am a football fan and love the defensive side of the game and the tactics that come with that just as much as the attacking side of the game.
Potter had far more star players, had higher parachute payments, spent 3 times as much in a single season than Cooper did in 2 combined… and got absolutely nowhere near. I found that incredibly frustrating to watch, having such talents available and being so powderpuff.
Cooper clearly knew that the task was going to be even harder with star players going and also the lack of ambition shown in January where he needed certain players and was given senseless rubbish. I don’t blame him for walking and think I’d have done the same on reflection.
Levien didn’t realise anything of the sort, they were trying to offer him a new contract and Cooper had none of it. You are telling us what Levien realises without that being represented by reality. It’s becoming a bit of a habit. [Post edited 11 Aug 2021 14:18]
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 14:42 - Aug 11 with 1298 views | Chief |
So you are saying that Levein lied to the fans and Cooper on his infamous zoom interview earlier in the year? When he said he wanted to offer a new contract to Cooper?
Or are you making things up again?
"there was no scope for incorporating young players other than Cabango"
You've been moaning for months that Cooper didn't play Arriola enough. Now you're moaning that he played the loan players too much.
You're tripping up over yourself again in trying to brown nose the Americans at every turn, without realising your viewpoints are completely at odds with each other.
[Post edited 11 Aug 2021 15:46]
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 14:58 - Aug 11 with 1264 views | vetchonian |
The issue is during those years you talk about we had an ownership model which was different.
We were succesful as we got promoted...then we were a middish table PL side playing "attractive " football we won the Capitol One cup and then despite having Laudrup as manager our league form suffered....I believe his focus on his second season was on Europe...out the n owners panicked as they believed they may fall out of the PL and thier "golden goose" would be cooked.....
Despite what us fans believe Jake Silverstien ddi not loan /invest £10M just so we can finish midtable playing pretty football | |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 15:40 - Aug 11 with 1185 views | PatchesOHoulihan |
I'm completely aware we had an ownership model which was different and I fully understand that the investment is to get us back up
I also like the defensive side of the game and the tactics which the Dr mentioned - very few of the successful teams which have gone up play the type of football which we were playing last year which suggests a more attacking approach is the best way to get out of this league.
We will never know what was possible with those players overthe last 2 years under a different manager no matter what anyone says but I'd argue that with a different manager appointed when Cooper came in its arguable that we could have done better | |
| This is Patches O'Houlihan saying "Take care of your balls, and they'll take care of you." |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 15:59 - Aug 11 with 1165 views | vetchonian |
Yet Potter only managed to get us to 10th with the likes of Celina, Can Der Hoorn,McBurnie,James,Fer | |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 16:02 - Aug 11 with 1163 views | max936 |
Nice one, Cheers. | |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 16:04 - Aug 11 with 1159 views | jackrmee |
In fairness, I think Potter was doing a lot of trying and testing and had more of a longer term plan. That didn't pan out of course. | |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 16:41 - Aug 11 with 1114 views | Dr_Parnassus |
“Very few of the successful teams which have gone up play the type of football which we were playing last year which suggests a more attacking approach is the best way to get out of this league”.
Attacking players cost a lot of money, successful attacking football is usually the way bigger clubs with larger resources go about it.
Smaller clubs with less resources have a greater degree of chance to destroy rather than create as it’s simply a cheaper way to do things.
The last (and only) time we got promotion to the Premier League we were the lowest scoring team in the top 6 with the meanest defence, which is exactly the same blueprint as we adopted the second (and only other time) we got to the playoff final, lowest scoring and meanest defence.
It’s no coincidence. | |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 17:35 - Aug 11 with 1055 views | theloneranger |
"A play off win would have been an anomaly. It’s something we have only achieved once in our history and we had our best ever league squad with our best ever league manager, it’s not the norm"
What about the 1988 Football League Fourth Division Play-off Final ?? | |
| Everyday above ground ... Is a good day! 😎 |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 17:45 - Aug 11 with 1042 views | Dr_Parnassus |
I think you have misunderstood the discussion.
The discussion was regarding the Championship playoff final, not just random play-offs. We have been promoted via the Championship playoffs once in our history.
To get to the Final is an incredible achievement, to win it has been a once in a lifetime feat for many of our fans, maybe even us too.
People flippantly saying we “failed” because we didn’t go up in them are barking. There is a massive difference between not winning and failing. | |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 17:57 - Aug 11 with 1026 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
There is really no point backing Cooper as the man to lead Swansea city. He quit. He wanted to be a manager with a notionally unfair advantage over 75% of his rivals.
Cooper never lost to Blackburn because he had players they could not afford. Woodman Guehi Brewster Gallagher Surridge etc . He also had Ayew the club owners could not shift off the books.
He achieve position in accordance with his budget. He had a top 6 budget and only scrapped in with stellar playing squad. Swansea have flourished having managers that punch well above their budget. The owners have picked a man who they believe can do this. | |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 18:15 - Aug 11 with 1004 views | Dr_Parnassus |
I will back all our managers to be the one to lead Swansea City, unless sacked, they all quit. From Brendan, to Martinez to Potter. All to teams with more money and more resources so when relegated get this mythical “unfair” advantage on 100% of the competition.
Of course we could afford them, they are loan signings. Players on short term contracts in return for a nominal fee to the parent club, or in Brewster case… nothing. What you mean is we couldn’t afford to buy them and tie them to a longer contract, which of course is irrelevant.
Potters budget was higher than Coopers and he finished 10th, his squads salary bill and transfer fees are the highest we have ever had in the football league and may well have even been the highest in the league.
Cooper in his second year finished around where his budgets suggested he should, in his third year he finished way above what the budgets dictated we should finish. That’s just the way it is. | |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 18:19 - Aug 11 with 1002 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Last season wage bill:-
1. Watford 37.0m p/a
2. Bournemouth 29.9m p/a
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3. Stoke 27.8m p/a
4. Cardiff 22.0m p/a
5. Norwich 21.5m p/a
6. Forest 20.2m p/a
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7. Sheff Wed 19.2m p/a
8. Brentford 16.6m p/a
9. Middlesbrough 15.7m p/a (slightly higher than us)
10. Swansea 15.7m p/a
11. Derby 15.5m p/a
12. Bristol C 14.6m p/a
13. Blackburn 12.5m p/a
14. Reading 11.5m p/a | |
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 18:30 - Aug 11 with 990 views | jasper_T |
Those numbers don't look right at all. The season before half the division we spending £30m+ according to actual published accounts.
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| Joel Piroe : Facing up to facts on 18:36 - Aug 11 with 976 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Those numbers are for all 321 employed members of staff. Which will also be the case for all the other teams with their respective total company salary bill.
The figure in my post is for the 61 members of the playing staff and the respective playing staff wage bill of the other sides. [Post edited 11 Aug 2021 18:41]
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