| Club announcement pending 20:58 - Jul 20 with 40354 views | KeithHaynes |
Sorry we can’t bring any more than this at the moment, but it’s only fair we place on record we are told the club are about to make an announcement. It would be wrong to speculate any further at this time.
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| Club announcement pending on 09:00 - Jul 23 with 1099 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Agree with all three points you make.
1) I would say it’s certain they would know about the clause, they signed and agreed it. I also agree it is unlikely there was any negotiations to reduce that fee, it certainly hasn’t been reported anywhere. Only that clubs were not willing to meet the amount in the contract which we were demanding. Winter was trying to get him a contract extension so after such success over the last two seasons it defies logic to suggest the club wanted him out.
2) Yes, almost every manager will have left their post via poaching, sacking or mutual consent. It’s completely normal and not a concern for anyone in the slightest. It was a stretch.
3) Agree again, he certainly wasn’t touting himself out, it really is a nonsensical notion. It’s not how it works. Clubs had vacancies and they approached him to open dialogue regarding filling it, it seems yet again another stretch to say he was writing his CV and cover letter and sending it off to these clubs. The dialogue would have been responsive, not pro active - which of course “touting yourself out” relies on. It’s obviously intentionally inaccurate. | |
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| Club announcement pending on 09:00 - Jul 23 with 1100 views | jack247 |
That’s the nature of a message board, if we all just reported facts or caveated everything else with (in my opinion) it would be a pretty sterile place.
We’ve both also stated numerous times that he’s far exceeded expectations points wise. That isn’t a fact and neither of us have caveated it. Exceeded predecessors points tallies is factual, exceeded what he should have reasonably been expected to achieve is subjective.
Expecting Winter to know where his managers head is at and act accordingly with negotiations isn’t a particularly lofty expectation. I’ve never run a football club, but I’m pretty confident I’d have had a long chat with Cooper and kept him up to date with developments in that scenario. I don’t think I’d have priced him out of a move then paid him off. | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 09:17 - Jul 23 with 1078 views | Dr_Parnassus |
You don’t need to list out some caveats at the end of each post, just frame it correctly. When you constantly say he touted himself out, I think people would appreciate to know that you aren’t claiming that as fact. An “I think” wouldn’t go amiss, it’s a pretty specific and damning accusation so it’s probably appropriate in that context.
It is a fact he has exceeded expectations. My expectations were that we would maybe challenge for one of the last play off spots but finish somewhere between 6th and 10th. I know many expectations of people echoed that, it’s a fact he exceeded those. What isn’t a fact is that he touted himself out, in fact according to all sources the opposite is true.
Winter isn’t a mind reader, expecting him to be is wildly far from reality. Cooper and Winter didn’t seem like the best of friends and cant envisage a scenario where Cooper was using him and an agony aunt. It’s very likely, like most people, their feelings regarding leaving the role aren’t made clear until it is time to leave.
You have no idea what you would have done. As you said, you have never run a football club. It’s very likely if you wanted a manager to stay you would rebuff offers by refusing to negotiate the clause in his contract. Once they moved on and appointed others and said manager tells you he wants to leave, there isn’t a lot you could do about it. [Post edited 23 Jul 2021 9:19]
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| Club announcement pending on 09:31 - Jul 23 with 1057 views | jack247 |
With respect, I don’t need critique of my posting style. I’ll do it the way I see fit. It’s inherently obvious that it’s an opinion.
It may be a fact that he’s exceeded your expectations, anything beyond that is an opinion, unless the club for example, disclosed what their expectations were. It’s not relevant really, I’ve got no issue with people saying stuff like that, I do it myself, as do virtually all of us.
He doesn’t need to be a mind reader, he needs to talk to Cooper. Whether they get on or not, that’s a key part of both of their roles. Cooper saying he would walk if he didn’t get the move would almost inevitably lead to us reducing our demands, unless Winter either didn’t have that chat or didn’t believe him.
Again, it’s incredibly plausible that he wasn’t first choice for either. Fulham have stated as much.
Your last paragraph seems to imply you think you have a better idea what I would have done in that scenario than I do myself? | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 09:40 - Jul 23 with 1041 views | onehunglow |
"posting style".Jeez,what a cheek. So now ,that which we append on here,is being analysed.
Normally it is simple grammar ,now it's style eh.
In my previous guise,I created a style that gave me countless followers ;they still follow my every word. A pretty disparate lot I can tell you but I ditched the keyboard and moved on after being banned by Mr Sumbler.
Make no mistake, we all love a little attention ;I do for sure,we all like our egos massaged and posts seen as "great" and even better when one poster is seen as "schooling" another.
It's a hoot really.
You carry on 247 and carry on arguing with me as we do and that will do me .
Par;you need to find a little humility and wear more sincream. | |
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| Club announcement pending on 09:53 - Jul 23 with 1023 views | vetchonian |
The ping pong between you and the Doc is getting hard work and I see both arguements but in it what is getting lost is why we have arrived at the situation as you say
"I don’t think I’d have priced him out of a move then paid him off."
I do believe the Yanks were arrogant enough to think they could demand the fee and would get it and if they didnt Cooper would stay but thats ony my opinion but it makes me think
Why have the club paid him off? If I were WInter I could have said ok Steve you dont want to stay...lets have your notice....something is not quite kosher otherwise why the need to pay him off? The club could have said you have two choices stayhere is the deal or walk we will be happy to take your notice.
As I keep saying the only ones who know what is what will not be saying anything...especially Cooper as he has been paid for his silence we can all speculate and summise and throw in our opinion but we may never get to what really did happen...what is more impotant is there is obviously something wrong in the background and more worrying we are left managerless 15 days before the season starts..THis scenario should have and could have been avoided...especially if the club had wanted Cooper out... | |
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| Club announcement pending on 09:58 - Jul 23 with 1003 views | Dr_Parnassus |
It’s not a critique of posting style, it’s making allegations against someone and dressing them up as fact.
It’s a fact that he exceeded expectations, that the term I used. If you relate that to board expectations then that’s on you I suppose. However the consequence of such a phrase is small, it is not a personal attack on anyone.
Comparing an accusation that someone is “touting themselves out” and framing it as fact based on no evidence at all to a scenario where a club receiving a mid table budget finishes 4th and equalled their points record at that level as “exceeding expectations” is hardly similar.
Of course he has to be a mind reader if, as common sense suggests, your employees don’t tell you that they may leave. You seem to think Cooper has taken some sort of truth serum where all Winter he to do was ask and he would pour out his deepest feelings and intentions regarding the role. If only life was like that.
Fulham did not state that Cooper wasn’t first choice. I don’t think they mentioned him. You make that up, or at the very least did the same truck of framing in the negative. By not mentioning him they also said “Mourinho wasn’t our first choice” by the same logic.
You have never been in the situation of running a club before. If you think you can foresee and manage to a greater degree and get a greater outcome than Winter then I suggest you try and get into that work space. However forgive me for having my doubts. | |
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| Club announcement pending on 10:02 - Jul 23 with 998 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Saying someone is misrepresenting the truth is not a posting style.
Saying quite categorically that “Cooper touted himself out” is libellous. It’s a direct accusation that Cooper was pro actively approaching clubs.
This is based on nothing at all. It’s not a style, it’s an underhand tactic to undermine that has been rightly called out. Put that accusation in any posting style you like, it won’t make a difference to the ethics behind making such a personal remark without qualifying it that it’s simply an armchair opinion. | |
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| Club announcement pending on 10:05 - Jul 23 with 994 views | jack247 |
Yes, it is getting a little drawn out and tiresome as conversations between me and him occasionally do.
It’s certainly plausible, incompetent but plausible. I just think it’s far more likely that he didn’t get either job. Fulham have said Silva was their top target.
As you say, none of us know the reasons behind what happened, but it is unusual. I guess this close to a new season, it’s better to have a clean break and bring the new manager in. | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 10:06 - Jul 23 with 989 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Correct.
The incorrectly framed "I don’t think I’d have priced him out of a move then paid him off." implies that when one action was made, the opposite was known and likely. It assumes a situation that has not been agreed upon.
I don’t for one second agree that Winter had any inclination that Cooper was about to essentially rip up his contract. Meaning “pricing him out of a move and then paying him off” isn’t quite the scenario.
It is likely to have been “pricing him out of a move ensuring he stays”.
It backfired. | |
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| Club announcement pending on 10:10 - Jul 23 with 984 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Fulham also said they only spoke to one manager, bit of selective reporting from you there.
You can’t “not get a job” you didn’t speak to anyone about, can you?
If we are accepting what Fulham say at face value as you appear to want to, and of course they also say he’s the only manager they spoke to - it suggests that Cooper touting himself out is false. Doesn’t it?
You can’t have it both ways and using what they say when it suits your narrative and ignoring what they say when it doesn’t suit it. It’s that exact contortion of facts to suit a personal narrative is exactly what I have been taking about. [Post edited 23 Jul 2021 10:11]
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| Club announcement pending on 10:16 - Jul 23 with 974 views | jack247 |
Dressing them up as fact? You’d have to be an imbecile to read that as anything other than my opinion. It’s very, very common practice on here.
Given he is now jobless by his own doing, it looks to be quite an accurate opinion.
Truth serum? Surely you agree that it would have been in Coopers interests to put his cards on the table? Had we waived or significantly reduced our demands and he gone to either club, he’d have been in a much better position than he is now.
Fulham stated that Silva was their first choice. Unless we’re taking this to militant Jack and Jill levels, that’s first choice from the realistic candidates.
I don’t think I could do a better job than Winter. I don’t think the scenario arose because both clubs went with other options. | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 10:21 - Jul 23 with 953 views | jack247 |
Unless I’m mistaken, Fulham said Silva was the only manager Tony Khan or Shaheed Khan spoke to. They didn’t say the club hadn’t spoken to anyone else. | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 10:27 - Jul 23 with 947 views | jack247 |
I will do. I’ll keep agreeing with you when I think you’re right and calling you out on it when I think you’re wrong, as I will with Dr Parnassus and anyone else on here.
This one, as they invariably do, will fizzle out when I get bored of going around in circles. He’s got his opinion, I’ve got mine, neither will change.
If I think a manager is touting himself out, I’ll say ‘he’s touting himself out’ I won’t prefix it with a disclaimer and I won’t worry too much about it being libellous. | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 10:35 - Jul 23 with 927 views | Dr_Parnassus |
I don’t think so at all. It seemed like a direct accusation of which you were certain, you have said it over and over. But it’s based on nothing is it, in fact it’s based on the opposite of what we know and the opposite of how we know things are done.
Why does being jobless, mean that stating he was touting himself about - is an accurate opinion? I don’t understand how you have linked the two. Since he has decided to leave the club there is still nothing to back your claims that he was touting himself out.
I do not think it is within his interests to press the nuclear button before necessary, no. I think Cooper believed that Winter would do the honourable (and sensible) thing. According to the reports he didn’t, as a result Cooper said he was off. It seems that option was not a consideration.
Fulham said he was the only manager they spoke to. So you either take their word for it or you don’t, you don’t get to take parts of what they say and ignore the rest when using them as a source. So you will have to make your mind up which put down is more important to you, the fact that “Fulham rejected him” or that “he touted himself out”. Both don’t appear to be able to be true simultaneously.
They did go for other options, you are right. But that is reportedly because they wouldn’t pay the £3m fee we were demanding. Wasn’t it. [Post edited 23 Jul 2021 10:38]
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| Club announcement pending on 10:36 - Jul 23 with 922 views | Dr_Parnassus |
So you think Cooper sat in the waiting room and couldn’t get past the receptionist or something?
That’s a new one. | |
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| Club announcement pending on 10:54 - Jul 23 with 905 views | jack247 |
That’s just how you’ve interpreted it then isn’t it?
I’ve never once claimed to have any insider knowledge or purported any of my opinions to be fact. It’s very common practice on here, a quick scroll and you’ll find a myriad of opinions presented exactly the same way.
The fact he’s taken the decision he has, makes it likely (in my opinion) he was more desperate for a job this summer than a manager who wouldn’t get the job and then carry on where they were.
I’m not suggesting he press the nuclear button before necessary, what I absolutely think would have been in his interests would have been to let Winter know he was off regardless.
Fulham confirmed Silva was the only Khan had spoken to, not the only candidate the club had interviewed. | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 10:59 - Jul 23 with 893 views | jack247 |
Khan met him in Portugal. I’m not convinced it’s standard practice to fly all candidates there, during a pandemic, without a preliminary filtering process.
Edit. Or to fly there, assuming Silva was already there [Post edited 23 Jul 2021 11:01]
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| Club announcement pending on 11:03 - Jul 23 with 884 views | Dr_Parnassus |
How I have interpreted what? You have clearly said time and time again that he touted himself out, that is a direct accusation. I haven’t interpreted that anyway other than how it has been presented, repeatedly.
Opinion dressed as fact and accusations dressed as fact aren’t the same thing. You are directly accusing someone of an action, that requires proof or a caveat that it’s based on nothing. It’s not your run of the mill “opinion”.
I have absolutely no idea how you have come to the conclusion you have regarding the fact he has torn his contract up. That again seems like some odd contortion to arrive at that. If he was that desperate for the jobs he would have left prior to them being filled.
I don’t think he was off regardless, and I don’t think even Cooper envisaged it would get to this.
Only last week you were telling us he was going to be here for a while. This obvious nature that he was off regardless has only surfaced during this chat oddly enough.
I love the fact you seem to think that football manager interviews are conducted by HR until the final cut. If Cooper spoke to Fulham, it would be with them.
So he either did speak to them and they are lying, or he didn’t and he wasn’t hawking himself out. Quite the quandary. | |
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| Club announcement pending on 11:06 - Jul 23 with 876 views | Dr_Parnassus |
That’s quite amazing.
You have backed yourself into such a corner, in order to keep your two main “Cooper negative jibes” alive... you are now literally trying to say that the management appointment process to a top Championship club requires a management pre screening round by HR.
I’m sorry, I know you don’t like them, but this one really deserves it...  | |
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| Club announcement pending on 11:20 - Jul 23 with 862 views | andypitt56 |
He knows him and Leon where sold some magic beans. | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 11:21 - Jul 23 with 850 views | jack247 |
I can’t help how you interpret what I say. To make it easy for you going forward, virtually everything I say is my opinion. If I’m presenting a fact I’ll let you know.
Yesterday I said you were being passive aggressive and condescending. You replied that was just the way I read it. Can’t have it both ways.
I also don’t think Cooper thought it would get this far, though he was clearly prepared for it to.
Last two jobs I applied for, one I got one I didn’t. Both of them involved a series of interviews. The one I didn’t get, I didn’t reach the final stage and didn’t even meet my prospective employer. The one I did get, again, I only met the boss on the final interview | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 11:33 - Jul 23 with 819 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Direct personal accusations cannot be dressed up as fact, especially when they are based on nothing other than a desire to paint in the negative.
Passive aggression has nothing to do with sentence structure and everything to do with intent. Yesterday you were being over sensitive. Today you are just being wrong. Making accusations and painting them as fact is not an interpretation, it is literally what you typed.
I still love the fact you are likening football management to a normal profession. I’d love to be in your head with all this stuff, it’s like you genuinely think Coopers mum said “Hey Steve, there is a nice looking job on Seek over in that London place, wouldn’t harm to send off an application”. Then HR sending him an email and saying “thanks for your application but you were not successful at this time”.
No wonder you have wild dreams of him hawking himself out of that’s the level of understanding regarding the managerial selection process for a side like Fulham. Simply staggering. | |
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| Club announcement pending on 11:48 - Jul 23 with 795 views | jack247 |
I’m struggling to believe I’m having my sentence structure criticised by the guy who has been banned more times than I can recall and hacked into a fellow posters account to belittle him.
I’m sure Cooper doesn’t give a toss how I phrase my opinions on here, I’ve no idea why you do.
Your third paragraph isn’t even worth bothering with. Coopers mum? Weird.
Do you think every prospective manager sits down with the CEO straight away? | | | |
| Club announcement pending on 11:49 - Jul 23 with 793 views | jeza739 |
Here here!! 100% | | | |
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