| Clydach murders on 22:02 - Oct 23 with 1768 views | exhmrc1 |
| Clydach murders on 21:13 - Oct 23 by trampie |
I'm not about to go reading old reports of the case but did Morris claim he was not in the murder house that day/at the time of the murders ?
And you say nobody seen Morris in the vacinety of the murder house at the time.......so are you saying that there was no eye witnesses putting Morris at the scene which backs up what Morris himself says so he didn't do it, is that what you are saying, I thought you thought he did do it.
The guy that thought he seen the policeman at 4am in the morning on a lonely road not long after the murders might be telling the truth, but where had he been all this time is a fair concern, the other sightings mind you by the taxi driver and the woman both came across as creditable witnesses.
If I was some random person who was on nodding terms or just knew of somebody else that frequented the same pub i visited i wouldn't notice somebody wearing or not wearing a chain I must admit.
As regards the chain perhaps he did not want to admit to an affair as he did not want his other half finding out about it.
There are far more questions about the behaviour of others than Morris as to why they did this and why they did that, the trial was 11 weeks but seemed stacked against Morris (whether guilty or not), evidence not declared to the jury (not in the national interest type things, whatever could that be) and the poor performance of his own defence (timeline etc ).
Something I mentioned earlier on in this thread that I thought other people would not understand and that is if somebody else had been tried for the murders before Morris could they have been found guilty of the murders ?
Anybody that thinks yes it just underlines that it's a legal game, it's not really about getting the real culprit, in a case like this with no witnesses to the actual murders and little forensic evidence then who gets put on trial first might take the rap for it.
In cases like this it's difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt but in this case there was a guilty verdict, hence the concerns in many quarters as to if it was the right decision. |
As regards this statement I suppose it is possible that someone else could have been tried and found guilty but that would have needed the evidence. The CPS decided there wasn't strong enough evidence to bring a case against the Lewis family. All too often there are cases which have fallen for not having evidence where the cps have gone ahead with prosecutions so I suppose it just shows there wasn't enough evidence to charge the Lewis's and also like everyone else that would need to be guilty without reasonable doubt and not balance of probability as in civil cases.
Yes Morris claimed eventually he had sex there the day before and had left his chain there then. This was only after he was aware the prosecution had evidence the chain he denied all along was his. That being the case he wouldn't have had his chain on him that Saturday. Given he had been in the pub all day with people including his girlfriend who knew him and always knew he wore the chain i would have expected someone particularly his girlfiend would have noticed his chain was missing but that is assuming that it wasn't around his neck and got left during the evening at Mandy's house.
The woman who claimed this put this to the jury who rejected it. I believe from memory someone did claim they had seen Morris but it would need checking through and doesnt matter anyway. I think the issue about the Taxi driver was known at the time.
Why the defence team didnt raise something is a matter for them. It isnt new so really doesnt matter.
As far the mans claim it is just totally unbelievable and not just him coming forward after 20 years. You are talking about a copper killing 4 people. How did he get there. Is he really going to be walking 4 miles home after it. This witness knew about the guy in the bomber jacket. It had been raised previously by the woman so he knew what to say. It is absolutely incredible to think that Lewis would have been so stupid to walk over an hour home knowing the last mile or so he would be walking in a built up area.
There are absolutely loads of houses between where he would have come off the mountain and his house and part of it is the main Pontardawe and Ammanford road. |  | |  |
| Clydach murders on 22:05 - Oct 23 with 1764 views | Tim_Harry |
| Clydach murders on 21:53 - Oct 23 by Neath_Jack |
No it wouldn't, not unless Gary was a career criminal who is regularly interviewed under caution, for extremely violent crimes.
I have no idea if Gary has or not, hence me asking to ignore the magnitude of this particular crime.
You talking about Gary with this question now?
Did he? How do you know what the police put to him from the off. Criminals nearly always think they've got something that the police don't know about. The normal tactic is to say nothing, and let the police show their hand first. |
Bloody hell, mate. How difficult is it to understand if my reference to Gary is in a literal or hypothetical sense? It's not that hard! I don't know Gary personally. There you go!
And I'll state it again. Morris knew the Police had evidence against him. Why do you think he got a relative to buy a chain for him? |  | | |
| Clydach murders on 22:09 - Oct 23 with 1751 views | trampie |
| Clydach murders on 22:02 - Oct 23 by exhmrc1 |
As regards this statement I suppose it is possible that someone else could have been tried and found guilty but that would have needed the evidence. The CPS decided there wasn't strong enough evidence to bring a case against the Lewis family. All too often there are cases which have fallen for not having evidence where the cps have gone ahead with prosecutions so I suppose it just shows there wasn't enough evidence to charge the Lewis's and also like everyone else that would need to be guilty without reasonable doubt and not balance of probability as in civil cases.
Yes Morris claimed eventually he had sex there the day before and had left his chain there then. This was only after he was aware the prosecution had evidence the chain he denied all along was his. That being the case he wouldn't have had his chain on him that Saturday. Given he had been in the pub all day with people including his girlfriend who knew him and always knew he wore the chain i would have expected someone particularly his girlfiend would have noticed his chain was missing but that is assuming that it wasn't around his neck and got left during the evening at Mandy's house.
The woman who claimed this put this to the jury who rejected it. I believe from memory someone did claim they had seen Morris but it would need checking through and doesnt matter anyway. I think the issue about the Taxi driver was known at the time.
Why the defence team didnt raise something is a matter for them. It isnt new so really doesnt matter.
As far the mans claim it is just totally unbelievable and not just him coming forward after 20 years. You are talking about a copper killing 4 people. How did he get there. Is he really going to be walking 4 miles home after it. This witness knew about the guy in the bomber jacket. It had been raised previously by the woman so he knew what to say. It is absolutely incredible to think that Lewis would have been so stupid to walk over an hour home knowing the last mile or so he would be walking in a built up area.
There are absolutely loads of houses between where he would have come off the mountain and his house and part of it is the main Pontardawe and Ammanford road. |
So you are saying there are no eye witnesses putting Morris at the scene on the day of the murders and he also says he wasn't there. |  |
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| Clydach murders on 22:12 - Oct 23 with 1745 views | Neath_Jack |
| Clydach murders on 22:05 - Oct 23 by Tim_Harry |
Bloody hell, mate. How difficult is it to understand if my reference to Gary is in a literal or hypothetical sense? It's not that hard! I don't know Gary personally. There you go!
And I'll state it again. Morris knew the Police had evidence against him. Why do you think he got a relative to buy a chain for him? |
Could you print up what evidence the police put to Morris in his first interview please.
You seem very sure of what was or wasn't known. |  |
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| Clydach murders on 22:12 - Oct 23 with 1742 views | Neath_Jack |
| Clydach murders on 21:58 - Oct 23 by Garyjack |
"Criminals nearly always think they've got something that the police don't know about. The normal tactic is to say nothing, and let the police show their hand first."
Of course they do. when they are guilty! |
And when innocent. | |
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| Clydach murders on 22:17 - Oct 23 with 1730 views | Neath_Jack |
| Clydach murders on 22:00 - Oct 23 by Garyjack |
Not in the context of a horrific crime which you are conveniently asking us to ignore! |
I was going to try and give you a personal example from past experience, but I'd be wasting my time. That and I can't be arsed anymore, I was bored when i started this, now I'm proper bored 
I will say again, I have no idea if he is guilty or not (legally he is obviously). You Tim, taxman and I, can assume and second guess as much as we like, we will never know what Morris was thinking in those interviews. The only thing we know is that he was found guilty, twice. | |
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| Clydach murders on 22:22 - Oct 23 with 1722 views | Garyjack |
| Clydach murders on 22:17 - Oct 23 by Neath_Jack |
I was going to try and give you a personal example from past experience, but I'd be wasting my time. That and I can't be arsed anymore, I was bored when i started this, now I'm proper bored
I will say again, I have no idea if he is guilty or not (legally he is obviously). You Tim, taxman and I, can assume and second guess as much as we like, we will never know what Morris was thinking in those interviews. The only thing we know is that he was found guilty, twice. |
Technically 3 times, if you include the appeal court.  |  | | |
| Clydach murders on 22:23 - Oct 23 with 1993 views | Tim_Harry |
| Clydach murders on 22:12 - Oct 23 by Neath_Jack |
Could you print up what evidence the police put to Morris in his first interview please.
You seem very sure of what was or wasn't known. |
Are you being serious or what, mate?
No matter what narrative you believe, Morris knew there was evidence against him.
I've got no idea of the evidence the police put to him in the interview, but guilty or not, he would have known about the chain. Whatever side of the story you choose to believe, he would have known about it.
And it would have had a heavy influence on his answers to questioning. | | | |
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| Clydach murders on 22:34 - Oct 23 with 1968 views | exhmrc1 |
| Clydach murders on 22:09 - Oct 23 by trampie |
So you are saying there are no eye witnesses putting Morris at the scene on the day of the murders and he also says he wasn't there. |
No I am not saying there was no evidence. From memory I seem to remember there was some woman but that would need checking. Even if no one saw him that doesnt mean he wasn't there. We only see snippets. The jury see a hell of a lot more and not everything is reported. There is usually a lot of ms information as well. I remember in the early days after the murder there some report about a girl and a description and my sister saying it resembled a certain person. But it had nothing at all to do with this girl and she was moved from the enquiries.
The difficulty is the New Inn is about 1/2 mile from Kelvin Road along the road. However you can also go along the river and then it is only a short distance away so somebody might not have seen the person going there. That river then leads back to the path through woods to Morris house so it is entirely possible nobody would have seen him. What I heard is that the paint on the chain matched paint in his house. It was at that stage he changed his version of events. The jury would have heard far more than us and they have been totally convinced he was guilty. I dont think it is for us to decide otherwise. The family who sat through the trial also think they have got the right person and what I was told by a father of someone covering the trial is that the press did as well including the BBC reporters. | | | |
| Clydach murders on 22:40 - Oct 23 with 1959 views | Catullus |
| Clydach murders on 22:34 - Oct 23 by exhmrc1 |
No I am not saying there was no evidence. From memory I seem to remember there was some woman but that would need checking. Even if no one saw him that doesnt mean he wasn't there. We only see snippets. The jury see a hell of a lot more and not everything is reported. There is usually a lot of ms information as well. I remember in the early days after the murder there some report about a girl and a description and my sister saying it resembled a certain person. But it had nothing at all to do with this girl and she was moved from the enquiries.
The difficulty is the New Inn is about 1/2 mile from Kelvin Road along the road. However you can also go along the river and then it is only a short distance away so somebody might not have seen the person going there. That river then leads back to the path through woods to Morris house so it is entirely possible nobody would have seen him. What I heard is that the paint on the chain matched paint in his house. It was at that stage he changed his version of events. The jury would have heard far more than us and they have been totally convinced he was guilty. I dont think it is for us to decide otherwise. The family who sat through the trial also think they have got the right person and what I was told by a father of someone covering the trial is that the press did as well including the BBC reporters. |
No one saw him but it doesn't mean he wasn't there.....we'd usually call that no evidence and isn't an argument a lawyer could expect to work, though I'm sure some have tried it.
I've always thought there was something dodgy about this. I'm not saying I know the man is innocent but there is another witness who saw the brothers together when they said they weren't, who saw them where they said they weren't and if he's genuine then they lied, so why did they lie? | |
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| Clydach murders on 22:50 - Oct 23 with 1937 views | pikeypaul |
| Clydach murders on 22:40 - Oct 23 by Catullus |
No one saw him but it doesn't mean he wasn't there.....we'd usually call that no evidence and isn't an argument a lawyer could expect to work, though I'm sure some have tried it.
I've always thought there was something dodgy about this. I'm not saying I know the man is innocent but there is another witness who saw the brothers together when they said they weren't, who saw them where they said they weren't and if he's genuine then they lied, so why did they lie? |
The taxi driver saw the two together walking towards the house around 2am,but the police refused to follow his statement up ,he returned a week later and gave it again,they ignored it again,now 20 years later they are saying they will look at it. Good luck with that.
Is that normal police procedure? |  |
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| Clydach murders on 22:58 - Oct 23 with 1932 views | trampie |
| Clydach murders on 22:34 - Oct 23 by exhmrc1 |
No I am not saying there was no evidence. From memory I seem to remember there was some woman but that would need checking. Even if no one saw him that doesnt mean he wasn't there. We only see snippets. The jury see a hell of a lot more and not everything is reported. There is usually a lot of ms information as well. I remember in the early days after the murder there some report about a girl and a description and my sister saying it resembled a certain person. But it had nothing at all to do with this girl and she was moved from the enquiries.
The difficulty is the New Inn is about 1/2 mile from Kelvin Road along the road. However you can also go along the river and then it is only a short distance away so somebody might not have seen the person going there. That river then leads back to the path through woods to Morris house so it is entirely possible nobody would have seen him. What I heard is that the paint on the chain matched paint in his house. It was at that stage he changed his version of events. The jury would have heard far more than us and they have been totally convinced he was guilty. I dont think it is for us to decide otherwise. The family who sat through the trial also think they have got the right person and what I was told by a father of someone covering the trial is that the press did as well including the BBC reporters. |
So no one seen Morris at the scene but others in the frame so to speak were apparently seen at the scene, interesting. | |
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| Clydach murders on 23:21 - Oct 23 with 1910 views | exhmrc1 |
| Clydach murders on 22:58 - Oct 23 by trampie |
So no one seen Morris at the scene but others in the frame so to speak were apparently seen at the scene, interesting. |
You are assuming something that might not be right. I think there was a woman who did but as I say it doesnt really matter. The woman in the programme was put forward in the first trial but her belief was rejected by the jury. Morris defence team for the second trial led by the UKs most famous defence barrister and arguably the most successful barrister in misjustice cases didnt see fit to bring evidence forward.
He could have had better.
He was recently described as "The king of human rights work" by The Legal 500 and as a Leading Silk in civil liberties and human rights (including actions against the police).
A British republican, vegetarian, socialist and self-described "radical lawyer", he has participated in prominent and controversial court cases and inquests involving accused IRA bombers, the Birmingham Six, Bloody Sunday incident, the Hillsborough disaster and the deaths of Jean Charles de Menezes and Dodi Al-Fayed[5] and the McLibel case.
Face up to it Morris had the best money could buy and still the jury believed he was guilty beyond all reasonable doubt but then you think otherwise. He was successful in all the above but not for Morris | | | |
| Clydach murders on 23:24 - Oct 23 with 1905 views | Andy1300 |
| Clydach murders on 23:21 - Oct 23 by exhmrc1 |
You are assuming something that might not be right. I think there was a woman who did but as I say it doesnt really matter. The woman in the programme was put forward in the first trial but her belief was rejected by the jury. Morris defence team for the second trial led by the UKs most famous defence barrister and arguably the most successful barrister in misjustice cases didnt see fit to bring evidence forward.
He could have had better.
He was recently described as "The king of human rights work" by The Legal 500 and as a Leading Silk in civil liberties and human rights (including actions against the police).
A British republican, vegetarian, socialist and self-described "radical lawyer", he has participated in prominent and controversial court cases and inquests involving accused IRA bombers, the Birmingham Six, Bloody Sunday incident, the Hillsborough disaster and the deaths of Jean Charles de Menezes and Dodi Al-Fayed[5] and the McLibel case.
Face up to it Morris had the best money could buy and still the jury believed he was guilty beyond all reasonable doubt but then you think otherwise. He was successful in all the above but not for Morris |
Plenty of innocent people get banged up inside |  |
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| Clydach murders on 23:34 - Oct 23 with 1891 views | trampie |
| Clydach murders on 23:21 - Oct 23 by exhmrc1 |
You are assuming something that might not be right. I think there was a woman who did but as I say it doesnt really matter. The woman in the programme was put forward in the first trial but her belief was rejected by the jury. Morris defence team for the second trial led by the UKs most famous defence barrister and arguably the most successful barrister in misjustice cases didnt see fit to bring evidence forward.
He could have had better.
He was recently described as "The king of human rights work" by The Legal 500 and as a Leading Silk in civil liberties and human rights (including actions against the police).
A British republican, vegetarian, socialist and self-described "radical lawyer", he has participated in prominent and controversial court cases and inquests involving accused IRA bombers, the Birmingham Six, Bloody Sunday incident, the Hillsborough disaster and the deaths of Jean Charles de Menezes and Dodi Al-Fayed[5] and the McLibel case.
Face up to it Morris had the best money could buy and still the jury believed he was guilty beyond all reasonable doubt but then you think otherwise. He was successful in all the above but not for Morris |
So the jury only get to see what the powers that be allow them to see and not all the known evidence then, interesting. | |
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| Clydach murders on 23:36 - Oct 23 with 1883 views | Luther27 |
| Clydach murders on 23:24 - Oct 23 by Andy1300 |
Plenty of innocent people get banged up inside |
Everyone inside pleads innocence. | | | |
| Clydach murders on 23:40 - Oct 23 with 1869 views | trampie |
| Clydach murders on 23:36 - Oct 23 by Luther27 |
Everyone inside pleads innocence. |
I thought that some plead guilty to get released earlier and some admit guilty when their are inside to try and get back out as quickly as possible, Morris is condemning himself to staying there by not saying he did it. | |
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| Clydach murders on 23:41 - Oct 23 with 1857 views | raynor94 |
| Clydach murders on 23:24 - Oct 23 by Andy1300 |
Plenty of innocent people get banged up inside |
With the greatest respect, 2 juries, and three appeal justice's didn't believe him.
Good friends of mine who were brought up and went to school with him, are 100% convinced of his guilt.
There for the grace of God he didn't kill the bloke who he tossed out of an upstairs window |  |
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| Clydach murders on 00:04 - Oct 24 with 1854 views | exhmrc1 |
| Clydach murders on 23:34 - Oct 23 by trampie |
So the jury only get to see what the powers that be allow them to see and not all the known evidence then, interesting. |
Obviously judges make decisions on what is and isnt admissable. That is what they are there for. To ensure a fair trial not a one sided version like the BBC who didnt even give the police an advance warning of what was in the programme yet the BBC complain about a few things not being given to the defence. That is why it should be left to judges and jurors not TV reporters who are there to try to get large audiences.
Wyre Davies wasn't present was he. Penny Roberts covered both trials so she knows the real truth | | | |
| Clydach murders on 00:12 - Oct 24 with 1845 views | trampie |
| Clydach murders on 00:04 - Oct 24 by exhmrc1 |
Obviously judges make decisions on what is and isnt admissable. That is what they are there for. To ensure a fair trial not a one sided version like the BBC who didnt even give the police an advance warning of what was in the programme yet the BBC complain about a few things not being given to the defence. That is why it should be left to judges and jurors not TV reporters who are there to try to get large audiences.
Wyre Davies wasn't present was he. Penny Roberts covered both trials so she knows the real truth |
Nobody knows the real truth in this case. | |
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| Clydach murders on 00:25 - Oct 24 with 1825 views | raynor94 |
| Clydach murders on 23:40 - Oct 23 by trampie |
I thought that some plead guilty to get released earlier and some admit guilty when their are inside to try and get back out as quickly as possible, Morris is condemning himself to staying there by not saying he did it. |
He's serving 4 life sentences, he won't see the light of day again | |
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| Clydach murders on 00:42 - Oct 24 with 1820 views | chad |
| Clydach murders on 00:04 - Oct 24 by exhmrc1 |
Obviously judges make decisions on what is and isnt admissable. That is what they are there for. To ensure a fair trial not a one sided version like the BBC who didnt even give the police an advance warning of what was in the programme yet the BBC complain about a few things not being given to the defence. That is why it should be left to judges and jurors not TV reporters who are there to try to get large audiences.
Wyre Davies wasn't present was he. Penny Roberts covered both trials so she knows the real truth |
I think the claim was that evidence disclosure was withheld from the defence on public interest grounds. So the defence have no idea what general type of public interests were supposed to be being protected, what sort of evidence was being withheld, nor the amount of it. The Barrister that spoke seemed to find this quite unusual in such a case. Withholding data under Public Interest often done on national security grounds or in my experience can be used at lower levels to cover official backs.
Isn’t that quite different from the judge ruling evidence inadmissible. |  | | |
| Clydach murders on 07:11 - Oct 24 with 1776 views | trampie |
| Clydach murders on 00:25 - Oct 24 by raynor94 |
He's serving 4 life sentences, he won't see the light of day again |
I'm sure that will be the case unless he gets the conviction overturned and that looks unlikely because if he didn't do it, who did.....hhm a can of worms, can't see the authorities going there unless they have no choice. | |
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| Clydach murders on 08:55 - Oct 24 with 1743 views | exhmrc1 |
| Clydach murders on 00:12 - Oct 24 by trampie |
Nobody knows the real truth in this case. |
Penny Roberts sat through the 11 weeks trial and was convinced of his guilt. She heard nearly all the evidence. Wyre Davies didnt. | | | |
| Clydach murders on 09:03 - Oct 24 with 1734 views | trampie |
| Clydach murders on 08:55 - Oct 24 by exhmrc1 |
Penny Roberts sat through the 11 weeks trial and was convinced of his guilt. She heard nearly all the evidence. Wyre Davies didnt. |
Was she in the murder house at the time ? | |
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