| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread 23:10 - Jun 25 with 43077 views | Ned_Kennedys |
We’ve had three match threads from a Southgate fan and three terrible England performances so surely it’s time to have one from a Southgate critic?
Walker switched to LB, TAA in at right back, Bellingham dropped back next to Rice, Foden central, Gordon on the left and Palmer on the right. Come on Gareth: you can do it! [Post edited 27 Jun 15:28]
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| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 18:54 - Jul 1 with 1642 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
Interesting.
Maybe he does deserve more respect then, however and whoever he plays on Saturday. |  | | |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 19:06 - Jul 1 with 1616 views | PhilmyRs |
I found yesterday really depressing. I’m not anti-Southgate, although said in other threads I think it’s a tournament too far for him, but we should be out, that was our Iceland moment. One player’s brilliance in the last second of the game, rescued his career and kept us in the tournament.
This is his chance now, he must know we should be out, that he got lucky, he must try something different right? I know he’s stubborn, and I guess before yesterday he’d argue all games so far we hadn’t looked like losing and won the group etc, but yesterday was different, it was so poor from him, we should be on the plane home. Any stubbornness about our shape and the players in the team must be binned now. If he’s claiming he was a key factor in us getting through because he left Jude on the pitch he’s clutching.
I’m hoping this is the wakeup call he needed and it’s all change on the training pitch and in the first eleven because he can’t keep it the same with just 1 change. Time to be a bit radical, which I know isn’t his style but after yesterday I think it has to be |  | | |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 19:41 - Jul 1 with 1555 views | daveB |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 18:29 - Jul 1 by Ned_Kennedys |
He’s many many levels below Hodgson as a manager.
Hodgson has managed at the top for decades around Europe and won things: Southgate has had one job at Middlesbrough where he had a 29% win record. |
as a club manager I'd agree with you, as an England manager Southgate has been a million times better [Post edited 1 Jul 19:42]
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| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 19:57 - Jul 1 with 1524 views | Ned_Kennedys |
% wins as England manager are far less reflective than at club level. Loads more games against low ranked opposition than back in the day.
Otherwise you’d get a few on here claiming that Southgate has done a better job or deserves more respect than Ramsey and the other 12 managers below him on that list who all had fantastic club careers. | | | |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 20:05 - Jul 1 with 1504 views | TGRRRSSS |
Had Venables not been got rif of this would be irrelevant I reckon, he should have been at France 98 and probably as far as 2002 in Japan and Korea |  | | |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 20:11 - Jul 1 with 1496 views | stainrods_elbow |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 07:16 - Jul 1 by BazzaInTheLoft |
We can argue about how wide ranging it is, but the ‘Boregate’ nicknaming, Osama Bin Laden memes, and beer throwing v Slovenia is moronic and counter productive.
Neville nailed it last night. Criticism of the football is legitimate and the squad / staff should swallow it. That’s not what is happening in a lot of cases though.
Most fans decent. Had to feel for those three Rotherham fans who left early yesterday. Bet they won’t do it again for a while. |
Why feel for them? Goals become statistically more likely the longer a game goes on, so their stupid loss! |  |
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| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 20:20 - Jul 1 with 1483 views | stainrods_elbow |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 15:50 - Jul 1 by Benny_the_Ball |
Southgate has Hasselbaink on his England coaching staff. Little wonder the team is so defensive. |
Another cheek-blowing mystery, unless it's positive discrimination on the FA's part on account of his colour. The guy was/is a crap manager who's done nothing in the league (sacked by Northampton, resigned from Burton, and his QPR teams erased themselves from our brains as they played). Also permitted to flirt with punditry (nice work if you can get it, Jimmy), despite having a relationship to the English language and footballing analysis that makes one wince. [Post edited 1 Jul 20:26]
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| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 20:23 - Jul 1 with 1476 views | CiderwithRsie |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 20:11 - Jul 1 by stainrods_elbow |
Why feel for them? Goals become statistically more likely the longer a game goes on, so their stupid loss! |
I never have any sympathy for a fan who leaves early. | | | |
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| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 21:31 - Jul 1 with 1386 views | Rangersw12 |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 19:57 - Jul 1 by Ned_Kennedys |
% wins as England manager are far less reflective than at club level. Loads more games against low ranked opposition than back in the day.
Otherwise you’d get a few on here claiming that Southgate has done a better job or deserves more respect than Ramsey and the other 12 managers below him on that list who all had fantastic club careers. |
Southgate has done better than every England manager on that list bar Ramsey in my opinion.
They all won a total of 6 knockout games where's Southgate has won 7 on his own .
Could also argue that international football is a far level playing field in than it was 20/30/40 years ago . | | | |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 21:35 - Jul 1 with 1370 views | Rangersw12 |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 20:11 - Jul 1 by stainrods_elbow |
Why feel for them? Goals become statistically more likely the longer a game goes on, so their stupid loss! |
At least they made an effort to go to a game in the first place though
Too many armchair fans nowadays who talk absolute nonsense but haven't been to a game in decades... [Post edited 1 Jul 21:44]
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| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 23:30 - Jul 1 with 1294 views | daveB |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 19:57 - Jul 1 by Ned_Kennedys |
% wins as England manager are far less reflective than at club level. Loads more games against low ranked opposition than back in the day.
Otherwise you’d get a few on here claiming that Southgate has done a better job or deserves more respect than Ramsey and the other 12 managers below him on that list who all had fantastic club careers. |
club football and international football is very different.
No one is saying Southgate is a better club manager than any of them but he's done better than most at international level which is a very different game from club football, most teams a lot slower and more pragmatic | | | |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 23:46 - Jul 1 with 1279 views | SydneyRs |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 21:35 - Jul 1 by Rangersw12 |
At least they made an effort to go to a game in the first place though
Too many armchair fans nowadays who talk absolute nonsense but haven't been to a game in decades... [Post edited 1 Jul 21:44]
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And apparently it took two hours to get away from that ground when we played there before. Given how depressing the performance had been, and how unlikely it seemed that we would score, I could forgive people for wanting to get away.
That said, I wouldn't do it. I didn't leave at half time when 0-4 down to Newcastle either! | | | |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 03:26 - Jul 2 with 1174 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 19:57 - Jul 1 by Ned_Kennedys |
% wins as England manager are far less reflective than at club level. Loads more games against low ranked opposition than back in the day.
Otherwise you’d get a few on here claiming that Southgate has done a better job or deserves more respect than Ramsey and the other 12 managers below him on that list who all had fantastic club careers. |
Indeed. What that article doesn't mention is that Allardyce has a 100% win record for England! |  | | |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 03:35 - Jul 2 with 1169 views | SydneyRs |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 23:30 - Jul 1 by daveB |
club football and international football is very different.
No one is saying Southgate is a better club manager than any of them but he's done better than most at international level which is a very different game from club football, most teams a lot slower and more pragmatic |
You also don't get to work with the players day in day out on tactics etc, so very different indeed.
Southgate is very good at many of the aspects of international management, like culture, bringing players from different clubs together (a huge problem in the past) and the relationship with the media. He's made great strides in these areas and taken England deep into several tournaments.
However, its clear he's reached his ceiling and his lack of tactical ability, seemingly stubborn resistance to making changes and poor use of subs etc is a problem. These aspects are often the difference between winning things and not winning them in a sport of such fine margins. We should have won the last euros, end of. Southgate's conservatism is a big part of why we didn't. I'm not having a bar of claims that Italy were much good. They missed both world cups either side of that euros, and have limped meekly out of this one. A massive opportunity thrown away.
Maybe with the right technical assistants/partners this could be fixed. Southgate could then concentrate on the areas he's good at and defer to others in that area. But who is the technical coach. Mr "it is what it is" who failed at QPR! We simply need a much higher calibre of person in that sort of role or otherwise a much better tactical/technical person than Southgate in charge.
You have players in the squad who work with Pep, Klopp, Ancelotti etc at their clubs. The best of the best among coaches. And then they are coached by Southgate and JFH with England. I can imagine they can get very frustrated at what they are being asked to do.
England has a very talented squad that is good enough to be winning tournaments. To seem them paying as poorly as they have is so frustrating. Many of these players are still young and therefore it is time for a change so we start to see the best of them. | | | |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 03:46 - Jul 2 with 1162 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 21:31 - Jul 1 by Rangersw12 |
Southgate has done better than every England manager on that list bar Ramsey in my opinion.
They all won a total of 6 knockout games where's Southgate has won 7 on his own .
Could also argue that international football is a far level playing field in than it was 20/30/40 years ago . |
I think that stat is somewhat misleading as you have to take into account how fortunate Southgate has been with draws and the teams he's faced in the knockout stages. Previous managers may not have gone as deep into tournaments but, generally speaking, they were getting knocked out by quality opposition. In 1986, England went out in the quarters to Argentina. 1990 Germany in the semis. 1996 again Germany in the semis. 1998 Argentina in the round of 16. 2002 Brazil in the quarters. 2004 Portugal in the quarters. 2006 Portugal again in the quarters. 2010 Germany in the round of 16. 2012 Italy in the quarters. Bar 2022, Gareth has a happy knack of avoiding the big guns until the latter stages. Once again the draw has been very kind to him so he needs to take the bull by the horns and release the handbrake. | | | |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 04:02 - Jul 2 with 1127 views | SydneyRs |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 03:46 - Jul 2 by Benny_the_Ball |
I think that stat is somewhat misleading as you have to take into account how fortunate Southgate has been with draws and the teams he's faced in the knockout stages. Previous managers may not have gone as deep into tournaments but, generally speaking, they were getting knocked out by quality opposition. In 1986, England went out in the quarters to Argentina. 1990 Germany in the semis. 1996 again Germany in the semis. 1998 Argentina in the round of 16. 2002 Brazil in the quarters. 2004 Portugal in the quarters. 2006 Portugal again in the quarters. 2010 Germany in the round of 16. 2012 Italy in the quarters. Bar 2022, Gareth has a happy knack of avoiding the big guns until the latter stages. Once again the draw has been very kind to him so he needs to take the bull by the horns and release the handbrake. |
2018 was a fortunate draw, although if you win your group you will generally get a better draw.
We were unbelievably lucky in 1990 v Belgium and Cameroon. Germany was our only really good performance. Group stage was awful.
In 1998 we screwed up the group by losing to Romania (special mention to Phil Neville) and therefore ended up with a tough draw as a result. Same in 86 where we finished second to Morocco (who were not the team they are now) in the group.
2004, second in the group again. Also Greece were able to beat Portugal so why couldn't we?
2010, finished second below USA. Result, tough draw.
Win your group and its generally easier. If we could somehow stumble our way to the final, whoever we play will have been through some tough games. Regardless I think Southgate's time is up. | | | |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 08:28 - Jul 2 with 973 views | daveB |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 04:02 - Jul 2 by SydneyRs |
2018 was a fortunate draw, although if you win your group you will generally get a better draw.
We were unbelievably lucky in 1990 v Belgium and Cameroon. Germany was our only really good performance. Group stage was awful.
In 1998 we screwed up the group by losing to Romania (special mention to Phil Neville) and therefore ended up with a tough draw as a result. Same in 86 where we finished second to Morocco (who were not the team they are now) in the group.
2004, second in the group again. Also Greece were able to beat Portugal so why couldn't we?
2010, finished second below USA. Result, tough draw.
Win your group and its generally easier. If we could somehow stumble our way to the final, whoever we play will have been through some tough games. Regardless I think Southgate's time is up. |
yeah it's always the same, win your group and you should have one 50/50 game before the semi final where you don't tend to get easy games. France and Belgium messing their group up has made the draw lopsided this time. Even in 2018 we played Sweden who historically we are terrible against
England route is far from easy, the Swiss look a very good side to me as do Austria and the Dutch have some really good players. On paper of course we should win but we've all watched enough football to know thats not how it works | | | |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 09:07 - Jul 2 with 929 views | PhilmyRs |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 04:02 - Jul 2 by SydneyRs |
2018 was a fortunate draw, although if you win your group you will generally get a better draw.
We were unbelievably lucky in 1990 v Belgium and Cameroon. Germany was our only really good performance. Group stage was awful.
In 1998 we screwed up the group by losing to Romania (special mention to Phil Neville) and therefore ended up with a tough draw as a result. Same in 86 where we finished second to Morocco (who were not the team they are now) in the group.
2004, second in the group again. Also Greece were able to beat Portugal so why couldn't we?
2010, finished second below USA. Result, tough draw.
Win your group and its generally easier. If we could somehow stumble our way to the final, whoever we play will have been through some tough games. Regardless I think Southgate's time is up. |
Not sure you can blame Phil Neville for 1998, that was Le Saux but roll on 2 years Neville did gift Romania a pen in the group stages of euro 2000. | | | |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 17:46 - Jul 2 with 772 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 04:02 - Jul 2 by SydneyRs |
2018 was a fortunate draw, although if you win your group you will generally get a better draw.
We were unbelievably lucky in 1990 v Belgium and Cameroon. Germany was our only really good performance. Group stage was awful.
In 1998 we screwed up the group by losing to Romania (special mention to Phil Neville) and therefore ended up with a tough draw as a result. Same in 86 where we finished second to Morocco (who were not the team they are now) in the group.
2004, second in the group again. Also Greece were able to beat Portugal so why couldn't we?
2010, finished second below USA. Result, tough draw.
Win your group and its generally easier. If we could somehow stumble our way to the final, whoever we play will have been through some tough games. Regardless I think Southgate's time is up. |
"2018 was a fortunate draw, although if you win your group you will generally get a better draw."
England didn't win the group in 2018. They finished second to Belgium yet landed on the kinder half of the draw. | | | |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 17:59 - Jul 2 with 890 views | Juzzie |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 17:46 - Jul 2 by Benny_the_Ball |
"2018 was a fortunate draw, although if you win your group you will generally get a better draw."
England didn't win the group in 2018. They finished second to Belgium yet landed on the kinder half of the draw. |
I couldn't believe how Belgium 'allowed' themselves to end up on the harder side of the draw. I get the notion that you should go out to win every match but this is a tournament not a League season so sometimes you have to be a bit more 'cute' about things.
Draw and I'm pretty sure England top the group meaning Belgium are on the easier side. Or if a draw isn't enough due to GD/GF/head-to-head/rock, paper, scissors, then 'accidentally' lose the game. I'm pretty sure Belgium would have got to the Final had they been on our side of the knockout phase. |  | | |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 21:17 - Jul 2 with 737 views | daveB |
| England v Slovakia last 16 Match Thread on 17:46 - Jul 2 by Benny_the_Ball |
"2018 was a fortunate draw, although if you win your group you will generally get a better draw."
England didn't win the group in 2018. They finished second to Belgium yet landed on the kinder half of the draw. |
Yeah that was the weird game when we played Belgium and both sides would have been quite happy to lose, The Belgium winner was a bit of a freak goal from memory as well
Spain were in our half of the draw but lost to Russia in the 2nd round which really opened it up | | | |
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