| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off 14:31 - Jan 24 with 7256 views | JAPRANGERS |
What is going on with BREXIT?? Could someone far more erudite than moi explain easily ??
Why has nothing been done up until now?? [Post edited 24 Jan 2017 14:31]
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| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 16:38 - Jan 25 with 1578 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 15:41 - Jan 25 by Cliff |
There's two ways of thinking about these things - either the public has a say in the making of new laws or they don't. If you are suggesting that the only way the public can have a say is through a referendum then OK I'll accept under that definition the public rarely get any say, if however you accept that when we cast our vote for an MP we are having a say in the make up of the government, then you might be willing to accept that we have had a says in any new legislation. This will apply to ALL laws and acts of parliament, not just the EU issue and the 1972 act we are discussing.
Also as I say before, I don't think news laws have to repeal old ones explicitly, if a new law is passed it automatically supersedes any old ones, therefore the 1972 act overruled some parts of the Bill of Rights |
So you think it's ok for governments to amend such things as the Bill of Rights to suit themselves and there by taking away the rights of the common people
Because that is what happend
Heath knew what he was doing and knew that if he held a referendum that took away rights in the Bill of Rights, no way would he have won.
He said it himself some years later.
Heath said he lied because he knew that the British would not approve of him signing the Treaty if they knew the truth.
Wilson knew this and the trouble it was going to cause so had (as I've said before) to have a referendum, the con was that it did not address the rights taken away by Heath, only to stay in the EEC but again voting to stay is not the same as voting to join as full disclosure of the Treaty of Rome did not happen or that it took away the rights set in the Bill of Rights.
It appears to me you have no problem with giving away these right to the EEC/EU
But clearly today people do see and do care and they voted to leave.
If they had been informed in 72 we would never have joined and in 75 never have stayed [Post edited 25 Jan 2017 16:45]
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| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 16:39 - Jan 25 with 1578 views | essextaxiboy |
A point or two back on the exchange rate and we will be back.
We are going through a massive constitutional change.
Works out to about 4 games in hand IMO . No points deduction needed . [Post edited 25 Jan 2017 16:43]
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| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 17:53 - Jan 25 with 1521 views | Cliff |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 16:38 - Jan 25 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
So you think it's ok for governments to amend such things as the Bill of Rights to suit themselves and there by taking away the rights of the common people
Because that is what happend
Heath knew what he was doing and knew that if he held a referendum that took away rights in the Bill of Rights, no way would he have won.
He said it himself some years later.
Heath said he lied because he knew that the British would not approve of him signing the Treaty if they knew the truth.
Wilson knew this and the trouble it was going to cause so had (as I've said before) to have a referendum, the con was that it did not address the rights taken away by Heath, only to stay in the EEC but again voting to stay is not the same as voting to join as full disclosure of the Treaty of Rome did not happen or that it took away the rights set in the Bill of Rights.
It appears to me you have no problem with giving away these right to the EEC/EU
But clearly today people do see and do care and they voted to leave.
If they had been informed in 72 we would never have joined and in 75 never have stayed [Post edited 25 Jan 2017 16:45]
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I didn't actually pass comment on whether I thought any of it was alright or not, I was just pointing out that you can't have a referendum on every law to be passed.
I don't see how giving control over some legislative powers to a European government is necessarily taking away my rights, I still get to vote in European elections, the same as I get to vote in the UK ones.
Also where does this devolution stop,? I consider myself to be European, British , English , a southerner, a Londoner, and a westender in that order, why pick the break points at British for ALL laws? You don't like the EU laws so you want out, why can't Scotland and London for that matter apply the same logic and say we want out of the UK (London votes are often at odds with the UK in general).
You say if people had been informed in 72 we would never have joined and in 75 never have stayed, there is no evidence for that, I might even suggest that when we finally do find out what Brexit means, some people may have wished they'd voted differently.
Also may I point out that the Bill of Rights had bugger all to do with the rights of the common people as it was passed in 1689 - the common people didn't get a vote and so had no say in how they were governed or who by. |  | | |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 18:46 - Jan 25 with 1495 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 17:53 - Jan 25 by Cliff |
I didn't actually pass comment on whether I thought any of it was alright or not, I was just pointing out that you can't have a referendum on every law to be passed.
I don't see how giving control over some legislative powers to a European government is necessarily taking away my rights, I still get to vote in European elections, the same as I get to vote in the UK ones.
Also where does this devolution stop,? I consider myself to be European, British , English , a southerner, a Londoner, and a westender in that order, why pick the break points at British for ALL laws? You don't like the EU laws so you want out, why can't Scotland and London for that matter apply the same logic and say we want out of the UK (London votes are often at odds with the UK in general).
You say if people had been informed in 72 we would never have joined and in 75 never have stayed, there is no evidence for that, I might even suggest that when we finally do find out what Brexit means, some people may have wished they'd voted differently.
Also may I point out that the Bill of Rights had bugger all to do with the rights of the common people as it was passed in 1689 - the common people didn't get a vote and so had no say in how they were governed or who by. |
I'm not saying there should be a referendum on every law and there is not but you sure don't get referendums inside the EU, they would not want you have a democratic right to them.
The evidence is there in Heath's own words he admitted he lied the the public.
You clearly don't care what laws are changed or who makes these laws, I do. [Post edited 25 Jan 2017 18:50]
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| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 19:10 - Jan 25 with 1472 views | johncharles |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 18:38 - Jan 24 by essextaxiboy |
15 minutes of fame , in years to come it will be a pub quiz question .
She may pop up in the jungle eating kangaroos balls in a couple of years |
You're such a bad loser  |  |
| Strong and stable my arse. |
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| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 11:06 - Jan 26 with 1375 views | Cliff |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 18:46 - Jan 25 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
I'm not saying there should be a referendum on every law and there is not but you sure don't get referendums inside the EU, they would not want you have a democratic right to them.
The evidence is there in Heath's own words he admitted he lied the the public.
You clearly don't care what laws are changed or who makes these laws, I do. [Post edited 25 Jan 2017 18:50]
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For reference here's a list of referendums relating to the EU:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union
Also I do care about what laws are changed and who changes them. I might just disagree with you about what laws need changing and at what level of government (Local, UK or European) the changes should be made at. | | | |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 11:41 - Jan 26 with 1342 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 11:06 - Jan 26 by Cliff |
For reference here's a list of referendums relating to the EU:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union
Also I do care about what laws are changed and who changes them. I might just disagree with you about what laws need changing and at what level of government (Local, UK or European) the changes should be made at. |
No, that's a list of Countries that have had referendums or on Treaties within the EU not a referendum given to all nations and people
Never have all nations and people been able to vote on a single referendum and never will.
Can't remember getting the polling card to vote on the Maastricht Treaty. Did you, or any others apart from last year [Post edited 26 Jan 2017 11:48]
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| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 11:46 - Jan 26 with 1330 views | derbyhoop |
Unless you're a professor of politics the passing of the European Communities Act in 1972 is, effectively, history. I was just about old enough to vote at that time and I certainly don't remember any great controversy, apart from Tony Benn being against the decision. What I do remember is that britain had been trying to join the EEC, as it was then, since the late 1950s. We'd been rebuffed on several occasions.
The politicians of that era may not have told the whole story - when do they ever, but to describe it as a conspiracy to defraud the British people, is stretching things. The Act did give European law precedence over UK law. I'm sure there are a few Brexiteers who would say that was their reason for voting Leave. The Act also gave, with parliamentary approval, new rights to UK citizens. It's the last part that triggered the recent court case.
The fact is that parliament will give this govt the authority to trigger Article 50 and leave the EU in due course. Whether that proves to be a blessing or a curse remains to be seen. |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 12:07 - Jan 26 with 1313 views | QPR_John |
The recent court case, the actions of many MPs of all parties, the demand for a say in every aspect of the negotiations, the idea of a second referendum is simply a method to delay and maybe completely reverse the decision to leave. Now that may or may not be a good thing but those behind it should at least be honest about it and not insult our intelligence by pretending to be defenders of democracy.
Let's be honest we are being ask to take into account those that voted to remain but had the result been the other way many, especially the Lib Dems, would be proclaiming to all who might listen that the British people had spoken and the whole question of the EU had been put to bed once and for all [Post edited 26 Jan 2017 12:10]
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| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 12:10 - Jan 26 with 1304 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 12:07 - Jan 26 by QPR_John |
The recent court case, the actions of many MPs of all parties, the demand for a say in every aspect of the negotiations, the idea of a second referendum is simply a method to delay and maybe completely reverse the decision to leave. Now that may or may not be a good thing but those behind it should at least be honest about it and not insult our intelligence by pretending to be defenders of democracy.
Let's be honest we are being ask to take into account those that voted to remain but had the result been the other way many, especially the Lib Dems, would be proclaiming to all who might listen that the British people had spoken and the whole question of the EU had been put to bed once and for all [Post edited 26 Jan 2017 12:10]
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MPs and honesty
You'll never get that
You'll never get that
MPs and honesty
You'll never get that | |
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| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 12:19 - Jan 26 with 1279 views | QPR_Jim |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 12:07 - Jan 26 by QPR_John |
The recent court case, the actions of many MPs of all parties, the demand for a say in every aspect of the negotiations, the idea of a second referendum is simply a method to delay and maybe completely reverse the decision to leave. Now that may or may not be a good thing but those behind it should at least be honest about it and not insult our intelligence by pretending to be defenders of democracy.
Let's be honest we are being ask to take into account those that voted to remain but had the result been the other way many, especially the Lib Dems, would be proclaiming to all who might listen that the British people had spoken and the whole question of the EU had been put to bed once and for all [Post edited 26 Jan 2017 12:10]
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They are also asking to take into account the opinion of those that voted leave but don't want the same Brexit as May.
Basically asking for some sort of say from this point forward rather than leaving it all down to May to decide. She seems happy grouping all leavers in one basket saying they all voted leave with the same vision of a tax haven outside the single market that she has. If I've learnt anything the past year its that the leavers will f**king hate being grouped together like that, just try saying SOME MIGHT be racist and you'll never hear then end of how you labeling them all that way. |  | | |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 12:26 - Jan 26 with 1266 views | CamberleyR |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 23:53 - Jan 24 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Firstly as in my post above, we the electorate, did not vote to join in 72
In 75 the referendum was very one-sided propaganda used to influence public opinion.
Why have a referendum 3 years after joining ? well the real reason was that we were taken in to the European Community (the Common Market) llegally by Heath and there was attempts to use the courts to take us out and Wilson could not allow the courts to rule over Parliament sovereignty.
Assurances made then that the EEC would not become what he know today as the EU a State and a lose of national sovereignty were the lies feed to the electorate.
Heath told voters that the EEC was merely a free trade association. we know today (as did many
back then) was a complete lie
If the truth was told in 75 no way would we have stayed in the EEC.
It was and still is the dream of the EU to be sovereign over members. [Post edited 24 Jan 2017 23:59]
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"Firstly as in my post above, we the electorate, did not vote to join in 72"
On the contrary, joining the EEC was one of the key policies in the Conservative Party manifesto for the 1970 general election. A quote from it below.
"If we can negotiate the right terms, we believe that it would be in the long-term interest of the British people for Britain to join the European Economic Community, and that it would make a major contribution to both the prosperity and the security of our country. The opportunities are immense. Economic growth and a higher standard of living would result from having a larger market.
But we must also recognise the obstacles. There would be short-term disadvantages in Britain going into the European Economic Community which must be weighed against the long-term benefits. Obviously there is a price we would not be prepared to pay. Only when we negotiate will it be possible to determine whether the balance is a fair one, and in the interests of Britain.
Our sole commitment is to negotiate; no more, no less. As the negotiations proceed we will report regularly through Parliament to the country.
A Conservative Government would not be prepared to recommend to Parliament, nor would Members of Parliament approve, a settlement which was unequal or unfair. In making this judgement, Ministers and Members will listen to the views of their constituents and have in mind, as is natural and legitimate, primarily the effect of entry upon the standard of living of the individual citizens whom they represent"
http://www.conservativemanifesto.com/1970/1970-conservative-manifesto.shtml |  |
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| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 12:35 - Jan 26 with 1249 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 12:26 - Jan 26 by CamberleyR |
"Firstly as in my post above, we the electorate, did not vote to join in 72"
On the contrary, joining the EEC was one of the key policies in the Conservative Party manifesto for the 1970 general election. A quote from it below.
"If we can negotiate the right terms, we believe that it would be in the long-term interest of the British people for Britain to join the European Economic Community, and that it would make a major contribution to both the prosperity and the security of our country. The opportunities are immense. Economic growth and a higher standard of living would result from having a larger market.
But we must also recognise the obstacles. There would be short-term disadvantages in Britain going into the European Economic Community which must be weighed against the long-term benefits. Obviously there is a price we would not be prepared to pay. Only when we negotiate will it be possible to determine whether the balance is a fair one, and in the interests of Britain.
Our sole commitment is to negotiate; no more, no less. As the negotiations proceed we will report regularly through Parliament to the country.
A Conservative Government would not be prepared to recommend to Parliament, nor would Members of Parliament approve, a settlement which was unequal or unfair. In making this judgement, Ministers and Members will listen to the views of their constituents and have in mind, as is natural and legitimate, primarily the effect of entry upon the standard of living of the individual citizens whom they represent"
http://www.conservativemanifesto.com/1970/1970-conservative-manifesto.shtml |
And yet we have Heath admitting later that he lied to the public on this, in his own words, that he would have lost had he told the truth. | |
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| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 14:23 - Jan 26 with 1165 views | Cliff |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 11:41 - Jan 26 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
No, that's a list of Countries that have had referendums or on Treaties within the EU not a referendum given to all nations and people
Never have all nations and people been able to vote on a single referendum and never will.
Can't remember getting the polling card to vote on the Maastricht Treaty. Did you, or any others apart from last year [Post edited 26 Jan 2017 11:48]
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Why would you expect a referendum of all nations and people? and on what subject.
I can't remember getting the polling card for the Investigatory Powers Act 2016 either, did you? | | | |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 14:57 - Jan 26 with 1132 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 14:23 - Jan 26 by Cliff |
Why would you expect a referendum of all nations and people? and on what subject.
I can't remember getting the polling card for the Investigatory Powers Act 2016 either, did you? |
I can't say on what subject, but as the EU would never allow such. there is no point me coming up with a hypothetical subject.
Investigatory Powers Act 2016
No but then we are talking about the EU the joining or leaving which that has nothing to do with.
If you want a debate on that start it's own thread. [Post edited 26 Jan 2017 15:29]
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| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 15:12 - Jan 26 with 1102 views | Cliff |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 14:57 - Jan 26 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
I can't say on what subject, but as the EU would never allow such. there is no point me coming up with a hypothetical subject.
Investigatory Powers Act 2016
No but then we are talking about the EU the joining or leaving which that has nothing to do with.
If you want a debate on that start it's own thread. [Post edited 26 Jan 2017 15:29]
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I wasn't trying to start a debate on that as such, I was just pointing out that I don't seem to have had a vote on it, in the same way you haven't had a vote on the Maastricht treaty.
I also wasn't trying to get you to suggest a topic for a EU wide referendum, just wondering why you thought one wasn't possible and why that is such a big problem.
It seems to me you are arguing that the EU was a problem mainly because it was undemocratic with the examples given being your not having a direct vote on the Maastricht treaty and there not being enough EU referendums. My counter argument was we also never got a vote on something as divisive as the Investigatory Powers Act (which i assume from your reply you are not a fan of), and e don't get many referendums in the UK either. | | | |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 15:45 - Jan 26 with 1057 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 15:12 - Jan 26 by Cliff |
I wasn't trying to start a debate on that as such, I was just pointing out that I don't seem to have had a vote on it, in the same way you haven't had a vote on the Maastricht treaty.
I also wasn't trying to get you to suggest a topic for a EU wide referendum, just wondering why you thought one wasn't possible and why that is such a big problem.
It seems to me you are arguing that the EU was a problem mainly because it was undemocratic with the examples given being your not having a direct vote on the Maastricht treaty and there not being enough EU referendums. My counter argument was we also never got a vote on something as divisive as the Investigatory Powers Act (which i assume from your reply you are not a fan of), and e don't get many referendums in the UK either. |
Well the topic has expanded from my original point on illegality and lose of Rignts signed away by Heath.
You are ok with that, so you must also be ok with the Investigatory Powers Act. Right? | |
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| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 16:06 - Jan 26 with 1037 views | Cliff |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 15:45 - Jan 26 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Well the topic has expanded from my original point on illegality and lose of Rignts signed away by Heath.
You are ok with that, so you must also be ok with the Investigatory Powers Act. Right? |
No on three accounts:
1. Of course I'm not happy with the Investigatory Powers Act
2. I don't believe I lost any rights (that actually matter) in the 1972 act, in fact given that my human rights are protected by the European commission on Human rights, I may have had a net gain.
and 3. I don't think the 1972 act was illegal | | | |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 16:20 - Jan 26 with 1006 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 16:06 - Jan 26 by Cliff |
No on three accounts:
1. Of course I'm not happy with the Investigatory Powers Act
2. I don't believe I lost any rights (that actually matter) in the 1972 act, in fact given that my human rights are protected by the European commission on Human rights, I may have had a net gain.
and 3. I don't think the 1972 act was illegal |
Maybe you should think about asking the EU for political asylum should the UK finally leave that's if the EU has not collapsed by then. | |
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| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 16:26 - Jan 26 with 987 views | Cliff |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 16:20 - Jan 26 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Maybe you should think about asking the EU for political asylum should the UK finally leave that's if the EU has not collapsed by then. |
If that's your way of telling I should leave the UK if I don't like the fact we are exiting the EU, I will counter with the fact that I have noticed that you never when we joined | | | |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 16:47 - Jan 26 with 968 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 16:26 - Jan 26 by Cliff |
If that's your way of telling I should leave the UK if I don't like the fact we are exiting the EU, I will counter with the fact that I have noticed that you never when we joined |
How do you know I did not | |
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| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 17:07 - Jan 26 with 957 views | Cliff |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 16:47 - Jan 26 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
How do you know I did not |
I don't, but it seemed a good guess | | | |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 17:15 - Jan 26 with 941 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 17:07 - Jan 26 by Cliff |
I don't, but it seemed a good guess |
Is that how you voted in the referendum, it's what most people did no ? | |
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| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 17:18 - Jan 26 with 934 views | StraightR |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 11:46 - Jan 26 by derbyhoop |
Unless you're a professor of politics the passing of the European Communities Act in 1972 is, effectively, history. I was just about old enough to vote at that time and I certainly don't remember any great controversy, apart from Tony Benn being against the decision. What I do remember is that britain had been trying to join the EEC, as it was then, since the late 1950s. We'd been rebuffed on several occasions.
The politicians of that era may not have told the whole story - when do they ever, but to describe it as a conspiracy to defraud the British people, is stretching things. The Act did give European law precedence over UK law. I'm sure there are a few Brexiteers who would say that was their reason for voting Leave. The Act also gave, with parliamentary approval, new rights to UK citizens. It's the last part that triggered the recent court case.
The fact is that parliament will give this govt the authority to trigger Article 50 and leave the EU in due course. Whether that proves to be a blessing or a curse remains to be seen. |
The 1975 referendum was the first time I voted. I was for remaining in the Common Market, as it was then. I thought I was signing up for a free trade zone in Europe. It could be that I was young, naive and stupid and did not understand that I was signing up for a federal Europe. Or maybe nobody explained that. Or maybe it evolved by osmosis over the years. It was all a long time ago.
Being old, less naive though probably still stupid I now understand that you can't have a common currency without a fiscal union and you can't have a fiscal union without a political union. I have no doubt that the EU is heading for a federal Europe. Although I voted to remain, this direction of travel was almost enough to sway me the other way. I was a 'weak' remainer for purely economic reasons. I hope that my fears for the economy in the years to come are unfounded and that the UK electorate has made the right decision. |  | | |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 17:30 - Jan 26 with 916 views | Cliff |
| BREXIT: It's on, it's off, it's on, it's off on 17:15 - Jan 26 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Is that how you voted in the referendum, it's what most people did no ? |
Voting based on a guess on what the vote meant has proved to be what we all have done, as nobody, even the MP's responsible for taking us out, seem to have an idea of what it actually entails. | | | |
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