| Brentford and taking the knee 21:48 - Feb 13 with 11831 views | 1ASIN12 |
Just read this on the bbc
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56057908
Wonder how it will be received and if more clubs will follow suit or will Brentford have a rethink?
Has the “taking the knee” lost the impact as Brentford have stated .
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 17:01 - Feb 16 with 1478 views | DorsetIan |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 16:03 - Feb 16 by GasGiant |
Trying to make some kind of association between me and people who form mobs around statues is fatuous garbage, and it illustrates the unconscious generalisations that riddle your posts so you don't exactly stand up as a model of impartial objectivity, do you. I'm not asking you to speak for the bloody movement FFS, I've asked your personal view on whether you've ever heard anyone claim that "Black Lives Don't Matter" but you immediately inflate the question into that same vague national space where nothing is proved or disproved rather as though you are some kind of navel gazing sophisticate. You think anyone would run off and become a racist based on your answer? The problem is that as soon as the movement's leaders concede any ground on this they lose their own power and so do the useful idiots who sustain the movement by failing to question what it is and what it actually stands for. I say BLM in the UK is not about "fairness", is it, it is about the realignment of power without democracy. And you ask me me about clapping in the street, probably because you think I'll blunder into another of your clumsily set traps. No because it is divisive, populist mass consumption nonsense that immediately makes distinctions between those workers deemed worthy of a clap and those who aren't, and someone somewhere (you?) deciding one from another. There are nurses I would't let within a hundred yards of my late father and then there are Care Home workers who are low paid angels with no decent pension or job security. Who decides? You also ask about mobs round statues. Well if they were just ordinary people stopping vandalism from an other ignorant mob then yes I hope they'd succeed but you couldn't resist sticking that little emotive word "Imperialist" in there to prejudice the answer - suggesting you think you can predicate the answer to your own advantage. But then that's the whole characteristic of the Social Engineering around Racism isn't it, that "you" always get to pre-empt the debate and decide what is and what isn't? |
GasGiant, I honestly don't know what your issue is or what you object to so vehemently about me saying that 'black lives matter' is an anti-racist slogan and taking the knee is an anti-racist gesture.
You seem to think that I am engaging in some form of obfuscation or sophistry. I'm not.
And it if helps you, here's a very clear and true statement. In my life, I have never personally heard anyone - man, woman or child - say the words "Black lives don't matter".
I hope that's clear enough for you - but, now, what of it? What is that supposed to prove?
No traps, simple question. | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 18:21 - Feb 16 with 1431 views | Bicester_North |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 17:01 - Feb 16 by DorsetIan |
GasGiant, I honestly don't know what your issue is or what you object to so vehemently about me saying that 'black lives matter' is an anti-racist slogan and taking the knee is an anti-racist gesture.
You seem to think that I am engaging in some form of obfuscation or sophistry. I'm not.
And it if helps you, here's a very clear and true statement. In my life, I have never personally heard anyone - man, woman or child - say the words "Black lives don't matter".
I hope that's clear enough for you - but, now, what of it? What is that supposed to prove?
No traps, simple question. |
Taking the knee was a gesture used by Americans, in the land where the racial divide seems to grow bigger all the time.
Now it’s used here by thick, mindless drips for photo opportunities in a country that was about as well integrated as it gets, and was moving forward all the time.
There are loads of better ways to reduce racism than dribblingly copy a failing society plagued by bigoted f*ckwitts on both sides of the equation. | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 18:42 - Feb 16 with 1415 views | DorsetIan |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 18:21 - Feb 16 by Bicester_North |
Taking the knee was a gesture used by Americans, in the land where the racial divide seems to grow bigger all the time.
Now it’s used here by thick, mindless drips for photo opportunities in a country that was about as well integrated as it gets, and was moving forward all the time.
There are loads of better ways to reduce racism than dribblingly copy a failing society plagued by bigoted f*ckwitts on both sides of the equation. |
As a campaign, it got a lot of coverage. It had momentum, which spread worldwide, including here. Nothing wrong with riding a wave of publicity for a good cause. It’s caused a lot of people to rethink their views on race and anti-racism. | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 18:48 - Feb 16 with 1410 views | Bicester_North |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 18:42 - Feb 16 by DorsetIan |
As a campaign, it got a lot of coverage. It had momentum, which spread worldwide, including here. Nothing wrong with riding a wave of publicity for a good cause. It’s caused a lot of people to rethink their views on race and anti-racism. |
That’s ok then, we should see a substantial reduction in racism as a direct result. | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 18:57 - Feb 16 with 1406 views | Sadoldgit |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 18:21 - Feb 16 by Bicester_North |
Taking the knee was a gesture used by Americans, in the land where the racial divide seems to grow bigger all the time.
Now it’s used here by thick, mindless drips for photo opportunities in a country that was about as well integrated as it gets, and was moving forward all the time.
There are loads of better ways to reduce racism than dribblingly copy a failing society plagued by bigoted f*ckwitts on both sides of the equation. |
Thick, mindless drips? I’m sure our black footballers will be delighted to hear that. If we have such great integration, why do we hear so much about racial abuse here? The issue is racism in this country, not about copying something that helps highlight it. |  | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 19:16 - Feb 16 with 1391 views | DorsetIan |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 18:48 - Feb 16 by Bicester_North |
That’s ok then, we should see a substantial reduction in racism as a direct result. |
These things operate more chaotically than the sort of immediate cause and effect that you seek.
But a peaceful anti-racist gesture. What’s not to like. | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 20:30 - Feb 16 with 1374 views | Bicester_North |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 18:57 - Feb 16 by Sadoldgit |
Thick, mindless drips? I’m sure our black footballers will be delighted to hear that. If we have such great integration, why do we hear so much about racial abuse here? The issue is racism in this country, not about copying something that helps highlight it. |
Yep, anyone who can’t do any better than copy that bunch of self imploding, race obsessed fraggles in the USA needs their head read. | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 21:07 - Feb 16 with 1347 views | DorsetIan |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 20:30 - Feb 16 by Bicester_North |
Yep, anyone who can’t do any better than copy that bunch of self imploding, race obsessed fraggles in the USA needs their head read. |
Just out of interest, and in the spirit of TUI, what are your top three (better) anti-racist strategies? | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 21:26 - Feb 16 with 1336 views | Bicester_North |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 21:07 - Feb 16 by DorsetIan |
Just out of interest, and in the spirit of TUI, what are your top three (better) anti-racist strategies? |
Education- the UK does this pretty well
Community events to help integration
Community education programmes for those convicted of racism
I would say these should have a better impact than celebrity parrots robotically going through the US rip off motions | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 22:43 - Feb 16 with 1309 views | DorsetIan |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 21:26 - Feb 16 by Bicester_North |
Education- the UK does this pretty well
Community events to help integration
Community education programmes for those convicted of racism
I would say these should have a better impact than celebrity parrots robotically going through the US rip off motions |
All sounds great. A lot of it already being done at a community level across the UK ,I'm sure.
And I just don't see how any of this and taking the knee are mutually exclusive. | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 22:59 - Feb 16 with 1303 views | Bicester_North |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 22:43 - Feb 16 by DorsetIan |
All sounds great. A lot of it already being done at a community level across the UK ,I'm sure.
And I just don't see how any of this and taking the knee are mutually exclusive. |
Course they aren’t mutually exclusive, what kind of complete lunatic would think they were?
How about your top 3? [Post edited 16 Feb 2021 23:00]
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 23:07 - Feb 16 with 1294 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 22:43 - Feb 16 by DorsetIan |
All sounds great. A lot of it already being done at a community level across the UK ,I'm sure.
And I just don't see how any of this and taking the knee are mutually exclusive. |
Nobody is saying they are mutually exclusive. It's just that football players being forced to take the knee / pundits being forced to wear badges don't stop the racists or educate them. All it does is "raise awareness" amongst people who are already aware, and the racists carry on. What's the point of having a campaign that doesn't stop the racists and only raises awareness amongst already non racist people who already know about racism? And even if some didn't know about racism, but now do, they still can't stop the racists. Education of the racists and a harsh fine would be much more effective. A racist facing a 100 thousand pound fine if caught racially abusing a black person online or otherwise will think twice about doing it. [Post edited 16 Feb 2021 23:45]
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 00:02 - Feb 17 with 1280 views | Sadoldgit |
People signifying that they are against racism seem to upset some people on here. There are laws against hate crime and people are sanctioned when they are found to use racist language, so what is the problem exactly? It isn’t as if they only weapon in the fight against racism is kneeling down. It seems that people are still talking about it, so it is obviously doing it’s job in keeping the issue in the news. White people getting fed up with people showing solidarity in the fight against racism? Says it all really. | | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 00:32 - Feb 17 with 1266 views | Bicester_North |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 00:02 - Feb 17 by Sadoldgit |
People signifying that they are against racism seem to upset some people on here. There are laws against hate crime and people are sanctioned when they are found to use racist language, so what is the problem exactly? It isn’t as if they only weapon in the fight against racism is kneeling down. It seems that people are still talking about it, so it is obviously doing it’s job in keeping the issue in the news. White people getting fed up with people showing solidarity in the fight against racism? Says it all really. |
Don’t recall anyone complaining about kick it out campaign, banners on pitches and all that.
But forcing people to kneel every week in the style of faeces witted Americans because media and social media has conditioned every limp brained jellyfish to think that’s the in thing, is just oppressive.
Other sports seem to make it a choice, or not do it at all. Premier League Football, being the sport of choice for the money crazed, publicity hungry, vacuous, self obsessed, two faced snides, takes that choice away. | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 10:43 - Feb 17 with 1224 views | DorsetIan |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 23:07 - Feb 16 by Saintsforeverj |
Nobody is saying they are mutually exclusive. It's just that football players being forced to take the knee / pundits being forced to wear badges don't stop the racists or educate them. All it does is "raise awareness" amongst people who are already aware, and the racists carry on. What's the point of having a campaign that doesn't stop the racists and only raises awareness amongst already non racist people who already know about racism? And even if some didn't know about racism, but now do, they still can't stop the racists. Education of the racists and a harsh fine would be much more effective. A racist facing a 100 thousand pound fine if caught racially abusing a black person online or otherwise will think twice about doing it. [Post edited 16 Feb 2021 23:45]
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If they're not mutually exclusive then let's do all of them.
I don't share your analysis of 'all it does'.
My view is that the whole campaign has got people thinking much more about racism, and the different ways in which it operates. And if it's preaching to some who are already converted, so what. And if it's pissing off a few racists, so what.
I don't particularly like the idea of anybody being forced to support something they don't agree with, and I have already said I think it should be stopped now because the point has been made, but otherwise it's all good. | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 12:48 - Feb 17 with 1208 views | GasGiant |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 18:42 - Feb 16 by DorsetIan |
As a campaign, it got a lot of coverage. It had momentum, which spread worldwide, including here. Nothing wrong with riding a wave of publicity for a good cause. It’s caused a lot of people to rethink their views on race and anti-racism. |
Ian I would prefer to criticise the BLM movement for its irrelevance to current events, for the classic open endedness of its apparent mission statment meaning it is free to morph into the political movement that its leaders hope it will become while hiding behind the untouchable joker card of flinging out racism accusations in response to criticism , and for the fictions that it provides to enable Marxist student activists to pour into the empty heads of so many young people with no actual knowledge of Britain's history except for "factoids" on Twitter and Instagram stripped of context and proportion. However I end up criticising those who enable it to flourish, regardless of the goodness of their motives - and I have no doubt of your sincerity and good heart. There is a racial history to be learnt in the UK. It is not the US's race history, it's Britain's. It is in turns ignorant, shameful, then remorseful and redemptive - fortunately in that order. SInce WIndrush (and I mean the original immigration, not the nonsensical BLM inspired recent inflation of bureacratic insensitivity) Britain can be seen to have pursued an education and reform process that took us from a racist society in the fifties to a tolerant and finally an inclusive society in 60 years, but all that progress from schools and universities through social development is swept away by BLM rewrites to be replaced by rage, grievance, vengeance and it has to be said - ignorance, by many young ethnic and white people who deserved better than BLM's Marxist hijackers. Is that what we think of as a good result - Revolution fomented by deliberate falsification of the past? I criticised taking the knee as having absolutely no influence on racists, but at the same time appearing to show role models vindicating and supporting whatever rubbish and disinformation was being pumped out by BLM. Does that clarify? [Post edited 17 Feb 2021 12:49]
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 13:11 - Feb 17 with 1200 views | franniesTache |
"SInce WIndrush (and I mean the original immigration, not the nonsensical BLM inspired recent inflation of bureacratic insensitivity"
I'd suggest deporting British citizens to a country they're not from is probably a little more than bureaucratic insensitivity mush |  | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 13:51 - Feb 17 with 1190 views | GasGiant |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 13:11 - Feb 17 by franniesTache |
"SInce WIndrush (and I mean the original immigration, not the nonsensical BLM inspired recent inflation of bureacratic insensitivity"
I'd suggest deporting British citizens to a country they're not from is probably a little more than bureaucratic insensitivity mush |
No because that repatriation was not the wilful deliberate intention or policy of any government, was it. It was the result of the impact of a succession of changes in administrative policy not being properly understood by the people affected or by the Home Office until the reality finally sunk in when the damage was already in full swing. Immigrants had been required to complete seveal documents and the process was unfairly complex and the victims were unfairly treated. The minister at the time was made to take responsibility (rightly) and forced to resign (rightly). The pyramid of Government means the whole business of repatriations would have been handled at departmental or Agency level until the reality finally pushed it onto the Minister's desk when it was too late to stop what had already happened, However a bit of checking shows that although nearly half a million people immigrated from the Carribean - around 83 unfair repatriations actually occurred, so that suggests that around 499,900 people did manage to fill in the forms correctly, "mush". | | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 14:26 - Feb 17 with 1176 views | DorsetIan |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 12:48 - Feb 17 by GasGiant |
Ian I would prefer to criticise the BLM movement for its irrelevance to current events, for the classic open endedness of its apparent mission statment meaning it is free to morph into the political movement that its leaders hope it will become while hiding behind the untouchable joker card of flinging out racism accusations in response to criticism , and for the fictions that it provides to enable Marxist student activists to pour into the empty heads of so many young people with no actual knowledge of Britain's history except for "factoids" on Twitter and Instagram stripped of context and proportion. However I end up criticising those who enable it to flourish, regardless of the goodness of their motives - and I have no doubt of your sincerity and good heart. There is a racial history to be learnt in the UK. It is not the US's race history, it's Britain's. It is in turns ignorant, shameful, then remorseful and redemptive - fortunately in that order. SInce WIndrush (and I mean the original immigration, not the nonsensical BLM inspired recent inflation of bureacratic insensitivity) Britain can be seen to have pursued an education and reform process that took us from a racist society in the fifties to a tolerant and finally an inclusive society in 60 years, but all that progress from schools and universities through social development is swept away by BLM rewrites to be replaced by rage, grievance, vengeance and it has to be said - ignorance, by many young ethnic and white people who deserved better than BLM's Marxist hijackers. Is that what we think of as a good result - Revolution fomented by deliberate falsification of the past? I criticised taking the knee as having absolutely no influence on racists, but at the same time appearing to show role models vindicating and supporting whatever rubbish and disinformation was being pumped out by BLM. Does that clarify? [Post edited 17 Feb 2021 12:49]
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It does clarify, thank you.
Personally, I see things differently. Although there will always be Socialist Workers or whoever who will be common bedfellows in anything like BLM, the ability of 'Marxist student activists' to pour into empty heads is nowhere near as potent as you suggest, and certainly it doesn't define what is going on.
Someone once used the phrase to me that real life is 'more of a collage than a critical practice' and I take that view. To characterise BLM as this or that is to miss the point that it is simply an anti-racist thing that different people will respond to in different ways.
For what it's worth, I also don't see a 'Marxist' viewpoint as anything to fear. Seeing things in terms of basic economic and class relationships is a useful perspective - as long as you realise that there are other perspectives too and no right or wrong way to look at things. The attempt to demonise the left either here or (particularly) in the US, isn't helpful - and is too reminiscent of the battlegrounds of the 1930s for me. | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 15:06 - Feb 17 with 1170 views | Sadoldgit |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 10:47 - Feb 15 by Kennington |
But it doesn’t mean anything. A thirty second kneel to nothing. Might as well be standing with an anti racism banner as at least that would make sense. |
You say it doesn’t mean anything but we all seem to know what it means, apart from those who want to pretend it is supporting something entirely different. Who are we to tell people who are being abused how they should respond? If it annoys you, just ignore it. | | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 19:33 - Feb 17 with 1145 views | Bazza |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 15:06 - Feb 17 by Sadoldgit |
You say it doesn’t mean anything but we all seem to know what it means, apart from those who want to pretend it is supporting something entirely different. Who are we to tell people who are being abused how they should respond? If it annoys you, just ignore it. |
No pretending Soggy; BLM started as a political movement in the States and now is registered as such in the Uk company.
‘Who are we to tell people how to respond? ‘. Precisely , we shouldn’t but the football and other sports authorities did exactly that! | | | |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 20:45 - Feb 17 with 1127 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 15:06 - Feb 17 by Sadoldgit |
You say it doesn’t mean anything but we all seem to know what it means, apart from those who want to pretend it is supporting something entirely different. Who are we to tell people who are being abused how they should respond? If it annoys you, just ignore it. |
Did black people suggest that we respond by telling footballers to take the knee and did black people demand that pundits such as Keane and Souness wear a badge? If black people have asked for this, fair enough, but can't remember any black people saying this is the response they want. For example, is Le Tissier racist because he refused to wear a badge? I would imagine black people just want the abuse to stop and therefore we should be doing the things that stop it surely. [Post edited 17 Feb 2021 20:48]
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 20:48 - Feb 17 with 1124 views | DorsetIan |
Aren't there more important things in the world to get annoyed about? | |
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 21:01 - Feb 17 with 1111 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 20:48 - Feb 17 by DorsetIan |
Aren't there more important things in the world to get annoyed about? |
Yes, like Gao's under investment. I'm with you on that ðŸ˜. It was once said by a certain Clough that football isn't a matter of life and death, it's more important. [Post edited 17 Feb 2021 21:02]
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| Brentford and taking the knee on 21:12 - Feb 17 with 1101 views | Sadoldgit |
| Brentford and taking the knee on 20:45 - Feb 17 by Saintsforeverj |
Did black people suggest that we respond by telling footballers to take the knee and did black people demand that pundits such as Keane and Souness wear a badge? If black people have asked for this, fair enough, but can't remember any black people saying this is the response they want. For example, is Le Tissier racist because he refused to wear a badge? I would imagine black people just want the abuse to stop and therefore we should be doing the things that stop it surely. [Post edited 17 Feb 2021 20:48]
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You don’t seem to be able to grasp the point that nobody is suggesting that all anybody has to combat racism is to kneel down. Some questions. 1. What harm does it do? 2. Why do people expressing their feelings against racism cause you to spend so much of your time arguing against it?
3. The Kick It Out campaign hasn’t worked so far. Why don’t you argue that it should be cancelled as it isn’t being effective? | | | |
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