| Tier 2 / Tier 3 13:15 - Oct 15 with 35914 views | aleanddale |
Matt Hancock hitting a new level of incompetence today in the commons.
Press leaks prior to confirmation with local authority.... then backtracking.
Dithering over a statement on Manchester and Lancashire regarding if and when we will move to tier 3.
No doubt the whole thing is complicated beyond belief BUT there should be much clearer / decisive communication and direction from the government.
Staff on minimum wage will be getting 2/3 or just over £5 an hour on this latest job support scheme that's replacing furlough. Minimum wage is just that the minimum required to survive.
Liverpool the ONLY city on tier 3. Honestly?
Ignoring the "Science" when the science advised a NATIONAL circuit break 3 weeks ago.
My two penneth is that this is set for the long term. I read an article saying the average life expectancy is 81 and the average Covid death age is 82. It is a very very tough decision to make i do understand that but everyone knows this and the day could arrive where shielding becomes self governing and everyone makes there own choices. Maybe new Covid Laws need to be applied to allow the nation to do that and the obvious rule breakers can be hit with more severe penalty.
This is one mighty mess and the problem is that the master plan is falling well short its time for a rethink and quickly. |  | | |  |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:27 - Oct 21 with 1757 views | D_Alien |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:11 - Oct 21 by rochdaleriddler |
Failed? He was chief secretary to the treasury, culture secretary and Health secretary . All at quite a young age, he is only 50 now. You are being silly now, as for the police chief bit, are you suggesting he has instructed the chief constable not to enforce the law? If not then he isn’t responsible for day to day operations as you well know |
He showed promise early in his career, and wasn't a bad health secretary (better than some Tory ones, for instance) but when it came to the big one, he lost out. He could've stayed in the fray after 2015 and might even be Labour leader now. I suspect he's a bit narked about that
As Police Commissioner, he's there to advise on policy. You yourself have been very vocal about those ignoring Covid regulations. Crime overall has been down significantly during the Covid restrictions, and i'm sure he'd have used that if he were to stand for re-election so he must also accept the downside
[Post edited 21 Oct 2020 15:29]
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:27 - Oct 21 with 1762 views | isitme |
An interesting perspective. |  | | |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:28 - Oct 21 with 1756 views | nordenblue |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 08:00 - Oct 21 by BigDaveMyCock |
His particular concern was those working in the service, in particular hospitality, sectors. Often the worse paid sectors of the economy and often on zero hour contracts. What is mid 20th century about that?
That’s not class war, that’s recognising certain sectors will be hit by this harder.
This is not just some sad gets in Manchester, it’s a lot of people’s livelihoods. [Post edited 21 Oct 2020 8:32]
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Another sector that seems to have been totally forgot about recently is the travel industry again something that's been hit as hard if not harder than hospitality, with redundancies all over the place and it seems Virgin now on the brink surely there needs to be more help to keep these companies trading too.
My Mrs currently in the travel sector must be one of the "sad gets in Manchester" too he talks ever so compassionately about. | | | |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:30 - Oct 21 with 1744 views | D_Alien |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:28 - Oct 21 by nordenblue |
Another sector that seems to have been totally forgot about recently is the travel industry again something that's been hit as hard if not harder than hospitality, with redundancies all over the place and it seems Virgin now on the brink surely there needs to be more help to keep these companies trading too.
My Mrs currently in the travel sector must be one of the "sad gets in Manchester" too he talks ever so compassionately about. |
Was she stood outside Central Library shouting "Right on, Andy" for the cameras?
[Post edited 21 Oct 2020 15:30]
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:40 - Oct 21 with 1718 views | Ancoats_Blue |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:27 - Oct 21 by isitme |
An interesting perspective. |
Baffling isn’t it? I’ve said it before on here but I think the damage done by lock down will be greater than the “reward” for trying to contain the virus. Unemployment, homelessness, suicide, mental health issues, loneliness, undiagnosed Illnesses and incomplete operations all on the rise. |  | | |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:47 - Oct 21 with 1711 views | Ancoats_Blue |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 14:39 - Oct 21 by D_Alien |
He's a failed politician on the national stage and has big fish in smaller pond syndrome
As Police & Crime Commissioner, it was also his duty to ensure those breaking the Covid regulations were clamped down upon, but instead we've seen our infection rate shoot through the roof. His failed stance then led to 10 days when further restrictions weren't enforced when they needed to be
I guess those on the left will never understand the instincts that led to the Brexit vote and the subsequent voting in 'red wall' seats. It's been referred to (including on here) as the silent majority. I'm a spokesperson for no-one but i understand those instincts |
Have you dealt with the police recently or spoken to someone serving the force? They do not have the resources to nab someone for not wearing a mask or check whether the person they’re sharing a pub table with lives them or not. Thanks to years of underfunding GMP were already not investigating 40-50% of crimes reported to them never mind putting more rules in place for them to ensure the public obey. | | | |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:58 - Oct 21 with 1679 views | D_Alien |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:47 - Oct 21 by Ancoats_Blue |
Have you dealt with the police recently or spoken to someone serving the force? They do not have the resources to nab someone for not wearing a mask or check whether the person they’re sharing a pub table with lives them or not. Thanks to years of underfunding GMP were already not investigating 40-50% of crimes reported to them never mind putting more rules in place for them to ensure the public obey. |
No i haven't dealt or spoken with them recently, and appreciate the strains they're under in terms of resources. I'm not having a go at them. I'm simply making the point that when someone runs for the position of Police Commissioner, if things go well they'll take the credit for it. If not, just as with national politicians, they can't absolve themselves of some culpability, especially during a time when crime overall has shown a significant reduction | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 16:06 - Oct 21 with 1669 views | DaleiLama |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:47 - Oct 21 by Ancoats_Blue |
Have you dealt with the police recently or spoken to someone serving the force? They do not have the resources to nab someone for not wearing a mask or check whether the person they’re sharing a pub table with lives them or not. Thanks to years of underfunding GMP were already not investigating 40-50% of crimes reported to them never mind putting more rules in place for them to ensure the public obey. |
I was in Manchester on Monday night. Monday isn't exactly party night I concede, but it was a ghost town. Shops mostly empty, restaurants closed (yes I know a lot shut Monday and/or Tuesday for a break but ......) It was a pretty depressing trip if I'm honest and the trains were pretty empty though we did travel off peak there/back.
We just missed a train home so waited in the concourse for the next one. There were two regular bobbies in there and they were challenging people. The last thing I am trying to imply is this is routine as it's the first time I've seen it since mask wearing came in, but it does happen.
Aside for James: the outward journey was an electronic signal to tell the driver to set off, the return was done by a fella with a paddle. I noticed he had to shove his down his belt at the back of his trolleys. Do the train operators not supply you with a holster? Or had he just forgotten it? |  |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 16:19 - Oct 21 with 1644 views | James1980 |
We get provided with holsters on the network I work on but people do forget them. I wonder if the electronic device was a CD close doors and RA right away indicator which also would be operated by dispatch staff. | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 16:19 - Oct 21 with 1643 views | Ancoats_Blue |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 16:06 - Oct 21 by DaleiLama |
I was in Manchester on Monday night. Monday isn't exactly party night I concede, but it was a ghost town. Shops mostly empty, restaurants closed (yes I know a lot shut Monday and/or Tuesday for a break but ......) It was a pretty depressing trip if I'm honest and the trains were pretty empty though we did travel off peak there/back.
We just missed a train home so waited in the concourse for the next one. There were two regular bobbies in there and they were challenging people. The last thing I am trying to imply is this is routine as it's the first time I've seen it since mask wearing came in, but it does happen.
Aside for James: the outward journey was an electronic signal to tell the driver to set off, the return was done by a fella with a paddle. I noticed he had to shove his down his belt at the back of his trolleys. Do the train operators not supply you with a holster? Or had he just forgotten it? |
There’s almost always a police presence at Picc station, especially so since the recent terror attacks. And I know theyre probably BTP not GMP but any copper really has better things to do than hassling folk for non compliance of mask wearing whilst 500 yards up the road junkies loiter around piccadilly and ancoats shooting smack into their arms in broad day light. Priorities are not in order there. | | | |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 18:09 - Oct 21 with 1549 views | DaleiLama |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 16:19 - Oct 21 by Ancoats_Blue |
There’s almost always a police presence at Picc station, especially so since the recent terror attacks. And I know theyre probably BTP not GMP but any copper really has better things to do than hassling folk for non compliance of mask wearing whilst 500 yards up the road junkies loiter around piccadilly and ancoats shooting smack into their arms in broad day light. Priorities are not in order there. |
Both BTP and GMP. And yes, they have better things to do than babysit covidiots. | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 19:21 - Oct 21 with 1503 views | 49thseason |
"He showed promise early in his career, and wasn't a bad health secretary (better than some Tory ones, for instance) "
Interesting perspective, this being the same Burnham who signed PFI deals that cost the NHS £3700 a minute in interest payments. He is also the person who refused around 80 requests for an enquiry into 1200 deaths in North Staffordshire Hospital claiming the reputation of the Hospital would be damaged by an enquiry. He then attempted to blame the outcome of the report he was forced to commission on the Tories
Burnham delights in blaming everyone else... you can take the lad out of Liverpool..... |  | | |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 20:05 - Oct 21 with 1461 views | nordenblue |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:30 - Oct 21 by D_Alien |
Was she stood outside Central Library shouting "Right on, Andy" for the cameras?
[Post edited 21 Oct 2020 15:30]
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She was did you see her,she was the one dressed in all her Salford City freebies? | | | |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 20:11 - Oct 21 with 1451 views | rochdaleriddler |
Just reading about the Govt threat to take over the running of TFL unless Khan agrees to a raft of conditions attached to a bailout. Cuts to pay and conditions, pensions, ending of concessionary fares etc. Seems to be a bit of a theme here, set up regional mayors, but strip them of power if they don’t dance to the tune picked by the govt. our transport system will surely need bailing out again v soon, given hardly anyone is using public transport, cue similar conditions here and elsewhere. |  |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 20:15 - Oct 21 with 1447 views | Shun |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 15:27 - Oct 21 by isitme |
An interesting perspective. |
Not at all. We've already covered in this thread a few pages ago how flawed and limited that approach is. It's absolutely ludicrous to be comparing death rates by individual weeks. |  | | |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 20:44 - Oct 21 with 1411 views | isitme |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 20:15 - Oct 21 by Shun |
Not at all. We've already covered in this thread a few pages ago how flawed and limited that approach is. It's absolutely ludicrous to be comparing death rates by individual weeks. |
I completely understand the myriad of factors that make a direct year to year comparison difficult and flawed, even using five year averages is not without problems. I would not say it is ludicrous, but it has to be done with caveats and greater insights are needed to make conclusions. I would like your opinion as to why in a global pandemic death rates in the last reported week are lower than last year and in line with five year averages? I am sure you can understand why people without your level of insight look at figures and they make conclusions.
Data never gives you the answers but does pose questions and the tweet does raise a number of other issues.
What I do find interesting is since March there have been significantly fewer deaths attributed to flu than you would get historically (and no I am not saying that Covid-19 is just flu). The winter of 18/19 was significantly harsher than last winter and placed significant demands on the NHS, as you will probably be aware of more than most. If you look at total deaths that was one of the worst periods in the last 20 years. So although it has its limitations I am sure many will post stats comparing this year with last year and what some may see as the worst case scenario of a couple of winters ago. [Post edited 21 Oct 2020 20:46]
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 20:49 - Oct 21 with 1400 views | 442Dale |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 20:44 - Oct 21 by isitme |
I completely understand the myriad of factors that make a direct year to year comparison difficult and flawed, even using five year averages is not without problems. I would not say it is ludicrous, but it has to be done with caveats and greater insights are needed to make conclusions. I would like your opinion as to why in a global pandemic death rates in the last reported week are lower than last year and in line with five year averages? I am sure you can understand why people without your level of insight look at figures and they make conclusions.
Data never gives you the answers but does pose questions and the tweet does raise a number of other issues.
What I do find interesting is since March there have been significantly fewer deaths attributed to flu than you would get historically (and no I am not saying that Covid-19 is just flu). The winter of 18/19 was significantly harsher than last winter and placed significant demands on the NHS, as you will probably be aware of more than most. If you look at total deaths that was one of the worst periods in the last 20 years. So although it has its limitations I am sure many will post stats comparing this year with last year and what some may see as the worst case scenario of a couple of winters ago. [Post edited 21 Oct 2020 20:46]
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Taking that all into account, why are those with expert medical insight advising what they are and subsequently why are the restrictions in place?
There’s little point in comparing figures with other years if those experts and decision makers will also be very aware of them yet still choose the current path, which then illustrates the two situations can’t be compared. |  |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 20:55 - Oct 21 with 1390 views | D_Alien |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 20:05 - Oct 21 by nordenblue |
She was did you see her,she was the one dressed in all her Salford City freebies? |
Ah right, i thought it was a bloke | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 21:04 - Oct 21 with 1369 views | D_Alien |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 19:21 - Oct 21 by 49thseason |
"He showed promise early in his career, and wasn't a bad health secretary (better than some Tory ones, for instance) "
Interesting perspective, this being the same Burnham who signed PFI deals that cost the NHS £3700 a minute in interest payments. He is also the person who refused around 80 requests for an enquiry into 1200 deaths in North Staffordshire Hospital claiming the reputation of the Hospital would be damaged by an enquiry. He then attempted to blame the outcome of the report he was forced to commission on the Tories
Burnham delights in blaming everyone else... you can take the lad out of Liverpool..... |
Fair point about North Staffs, but tbf he was Health secretary for less than a year (before Labour lost the 2010 election) and by that time was simply following an earlier pattern for PFI set since 1997
And he was still better than Andrew Lansley, who was an absolute disaster
Quite amusing that you seem to think i was defending him! | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 21:15 - Oct 21 with 1339 views | James1980 |
Imo PFI was necessary because successive governments both Tory and Labour under invested in public services because levels of taxation to keep it up would have lost them votes. | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 21:29 - Oct 21 with 1317 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 21:15 - Oct 21 by James1980 |
Imo PFI was necessary because successive governments both Tory and Labour under invested in public services because levels of taxation to keep it up would have lost them votes. |
It was indeed a wheeze to keep the investment off the balance sheet, it is a disaster | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 21:31 - Oct 21 with 1313 views | isitme |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 20:49 - Oct 21 by 442Dale |
Taking that all into account, why are those with expert medical insight advising what they are and subsequently why are the restrictions in place?
There’s little point in comparing figures with other years if those experts and decision makers will also be very aware of them yet still choose the current path, which then illustrates the two situations can’t be compared. |
That is a really good question, especially when they appear not to be working and others with similar medical expertise such as:
https://twitter.com/carlheneghan
https://twitter.com/michaelyeadon3
https://twitter.com/SunetraGupta
would question what is being done. Some will look at the different approach Sweden has taken and ask why could we have not adopted this approach? The whole premise behind the scientific method is to question and that dissenting voices should be heard and scientifically addressed, rather than being shut down. Why should SAGE scientists and their advice be viewed as gospel and without discussion/disagreement? Look at Professor Ferguson whose 'expert models' have proven to widely inaccurate time and time again. Scientists disagree, that is the nature of science and that is how knowledge develops.
For example why have The Lancet, JAMA and New England Journal of Medicine refused to publish this research, even if it is just so that it can be rebuked by other scientists? [Post edited 21 Oct 2020 21:41]
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 21:32 - Oct 21 with 1312 views | James1980 |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 21:29 - Oct 21 by rochdaleriddler |
It was indeed a wheeze to keep the investment off the balance sheet, it is a disaster |
But what were the alternatives though? | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 21:36 - Oct 21 with 1300 views | tony_roch975 |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 21:15 - Oct 21 by James1980 |
Imo PFI was necessary because successive governments both Tory and Labour under invested in public services because levels of taxation to keep it up would have lost them votes. |
Agree with your analysis of the previous underfunding but PFI showed the worst element of using the private sector rather than taxation to fund public sector facilities - it could be argued that the reason we have no spare capacity in the NHS which led to the 'protect the NHS' prerogative and thus the lockdowns is in no small part due to the £250 billion the Audit Commission say we will be paying in PFI 'rent' for our hospitals over the next 23 years. | |
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| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 21:36 - Oct 21 with 1295 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Tier 2 / Tier 3 on 21:32 - Oct 21 by James1980 |
But what were the alternatives though? |
Not sure when people freak out about income tax rises! | |
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