| Clydach murders on 11:54 - Oct 20 with 2443 views | controversial_jack |
| Clydach murders on 20:28 - Oct 19 by onehunglow |
A jury is a collection of simple folk gathered together to listen to learned counsel tie them up in knots to such a state that they doubt their own names.
It is entirely a matter of theatre and the truth is often buried deep within the Show.
Jurors tend to err of the side of caution as when the learned counel emphasises , "beyond reasonable doubt" all the doubts in the world are manifest. God help the poor buggers |
That's exactly right. When Britain had the death sentence, jurors were reluctant to give the guilty verdict, but when the death penalty was halted, conviction rates went up |  | |  |
| Clydach murders on 15:39 - Oct 20 with 2337 views | exhmrc1 |
| Clydach murders on 20:28 - Oct 19 by onehunglow |
A jury is a collection of simple folk gathered together to listen to learned counsel tie them up in knots to such a state that they doubt their own names.
It is entirely a matter of theatre and the truth is often buried deep within the Show.
Jurors tend to err of the side of caution as when the learned counel emphasises , "beyond reasonable doubt" all the doubts in the world are manifest. God help the poor buggers |
Your right jurors do err on the side of caution. In this case 2 sets of jurors directed by 2 different judges totally unconnected with the area didnt. They unanimously found Morris guilty in both trials. I wonder why.
Mike Power has spoken out today about the case. He is the children's father. Like members of Mandy's family they sat through the trial and all believed the right man was convicted. It must be absolutely awful for them to see this being dragged up again. Shame on the BBC. | | | |
| Clydach murders on 16:10 - Oct 20 with 2313 views | britferry |
| Clydach murders on 20:22 - Oct 19 by Jack11 |
Bumping this ahead of this Thursday’s documentary on the auntie at 10.35. Wonder if there’s going to be any new developments. Be interesting to see how it pans out anyway. |
Question Time is on at 10.35.
This program is Thurs 9.00 on BBC1 | |
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| Clydach murders on 16:16 - Oct 20 with 2309 views | onehunglow |
When the Abolition of Capital Punishment was drafted,MP were told that the punishment would be whole term life not 15 yrs as is the case thee days. Had MP been told the truth ,it would not have been passed at that time.
Ian Brady and Hindley avoided the drop by months,which is one of the great injustices of our time | |
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| Clydach murders on 16:30 - Oct 20 with 2285 views | raynor94 |
| Clydach murders on 16:10 - Oct 20 by britferry |
Question Time is on at 10.35.
This program is Thurs 9.00 on BBC1 |
BBC Wales at 9 pm, 10 35pm in England |  |
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| Clydach murders on 16:36 - Oct 20 with 2288 views | Joe_bradshaw |
| Clydach murders on 16:16 - Oct 20 by onehunglow |
When the Abolition of Capital Punishment was drafted,MP were told that the punishment would be whole term life not 15 yrs as is the case thee days. Had MP been told the truth ,it would not have been passed at that time.
Ian Brady and Hindley avoided the drop by months,which is one of the great injustices of our time |
My daughter lives near Saddleworth Moor and every time I’m up there I can’t help thinking that one of their victims is still buried up there somewhere.
Beautiful but bleak up there depending on the weather. |  |
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| Clydach murders on 18:05 - Oct 20 with 2261 views | onehunglow |
Me too. I cros the M62 regularly,less than I used to and it always gives me the creeps.I read a book The Lost Boy about the murders ;worst thing Ive read in a while and Ive been a hard nosed fecker in my time. | |
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| Clydach murders on 18:49 - Oct 20 with 2242 views | Flashberryjack |
| Clydach murders on 15:39 - Oct 20 by exhmrc1 |
Your right jurors do err on the side of caution. In this case 2 sets of jurors directed by 2 different judges totally unconnected with the area didnt. They unanimously found Morris guilty in both trials. I wonder why.
Mike Power has spoken out today about the case. He is the children's father. Like members of Mandy's family they sat through the trial and all believed the right man was convicted. It must be absolutely awful for them to see this being dragged up again. Shame on the BBC. |
Absolutely correct mate, and I'm pretty sure the family had access to evidence that was deemed inadmissible in court, so I'm sure they would be far more knowledgeable about the case than somebody that read a book about the case.
And now a TV programme that will no doubt point to Morris being innocent, because if it didn't, there would be no point in making the programme in the first place.
I feel so sorry for the family having to live through this every time someone writes a book to make a few bob, or the media jump on the the bandwagon, never let the truth get in the way of a good story. |  |
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| Clydach murders on 14:25 - Oct 21 with 2110 views | trefelinjack |
| Clydach murders on 15:39 - Oct 20 by exhmrc1 |
Your right jurors do err on the side of caution. In this case 2 sets of jurors directed by 2 different judges totally unconnected with the area didnt. They unanimously found Morris guilty in both trials. I wonder why.
Mike Power has spoken out today about the case. He is the children's father. Like members of Mandy's family they sat through the trial and all believed the right man was convicted. It must be absolutely awful for them to see this being dragged up again. Shame on the BBC. |
It seems that you are doing exactly what South Wales police have done in the Clydach murders and countless other wrong convictions, and that is -
. Making the evidence fit the suspect
The reason why you are repeating the "gold chain" and "two juries" argument is because you lack any evidence on dai commuting the murders. An example of your complete brainwashed argument goes as follow -
. Dai gives a perfectly plausible explanation of why he lied and how his chain ended up in mandys House, yet you dismiss it easily however, you seem easily convinced and make up a story about how the most senior officer can leave after 10mins of a brutal murder, dissappear and then use an untraceable phone call out of his office. A complete derogation of duty no matter what the circumstances.
Are you honestly telling me that a gold chain has left you beyond reasonable doubt that he is guilty despite the fact that -
. No motive to kill family
. No DNA found of dai at the house
. No eyewitnesses see dai in or near the house
. Hand print at scene not matching his
. DNA found at house that was not his
If you think this is beyond reasonable doubt of guilty then I seriously hope u are never selected for jury service. | | | |
| Clydach murders on 14:37 - Oct 21 with 2103 views | exhmrc1 |
| Clydach murders on 14:25 - Oct 21 by trefelinjack |
It seems that you are doing exactly what South Wales police have done in the Clydach murders and countless other wrong convictions, and that is -
. Making the evidence fit the suspect
The reason why you are repeating the "gold chain" and "two juries" argument is because you lack any evidence on dai commuting the murders. An example of your complete brainwashed argument goes as follow -
. Dai gives a perfectly plausible explanation of why he lied and how his chain ended up in mandys House, yet you dismiss it easily however, you seem easily convinced and make up a story about how the most senior officer can leave after 10mins of a brutal murder, dissappear and then use an untraceable phone call out of his office. A complete derogation of duty no matter what the circumstances.
Are you honestly telling me that a gold chain has left you beyond reasonable doubt that he is guilty despite the fact that -
. No motive to kill family
. No DNA found of dai at the house
. No eyewitnesses see dai in or near the house
. Hand print at scene not matching his
. DNA found at house that was not his
If you think this is beyond reasonable doubt of guilty then I seriously hope u are never selected for jury service. |
There were 23 jurors who heard all the evidence. Every one of them believed him guilty.
As far as the chain is concerned he always wore the chain and was known for it. He was in a pub the night of the murders where people knew him yet no one noticed he wasnt wearing the distinctive chain. Many members of the Dawson, Power family sat for weeks through the trial hearing the evidence. They all felt they got the right man. He supposedly walked from the New Inn to Llangyfelach. Rhyddwen Road is a fairly well used road yet there wasnt a single independent person who saw him walking there or from the Masons to Llangyfelach. The jurors sat through all the evidence and found him guilty twice. That says enough and amongst the jury like every other jury there would have been people sceptical of the police yet they UNANIMOUSLY found him guilty TWICE on separate trials | | | |
| Clydach murders on 14:58 - Oct 21 with 2090 views | raynor94 |
| Clydach murders on 14:25 - Oct 21 by trefelinjack |
It seems that you are doing exactly what South Wales police have done in the Clydach murders and countless other wrong convictions, and that is -
. Making the evidence fit the suspect
The reason why you are repeating the "gold chain" and "two juries" argument is because you lack any evidence on dai commuting the murders. An example of your complete brainwashed argument goes as follow -
. Dai gives a perfectly plausible explanation of why he lied and how his chain ended up in mandys House, yet you dismiss it easily however, you seem easily convinced and make up a story about how the most senior officer can leave after 10mins of a brutal murder, dissappear and then use an untraceable phone call out of his office. A complete derogation of duty no matter what the circumstances.
Are you honestly telling me that a gold chain has left you beyond reasonable doubt that he is guilty despite the fact that -
. No motive to kill family
. No DNA found of dai at the house
. No eyewitnesses see dai in or near the house
. Hand print at scene not matching his
. DNA found at house that was not his
If you think this is beyond reasonable doubt of guilty then I seriously hope u are never selected for jury service. |
Apart from two separate juries, the case has been reviewed 3 times by the Criminal cases review commission which is independent from SWP and they found no evidence to say the verdicts were unsafe.
Why the BBC are rehashing this again is disgraceful, Show some respect to the Power family | |
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| Clydach murders on 15:04 - Oct 21 with 2092 views | onehunglow |
Were you in Court trevelin? | |
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| Clydach murders on 15:06 - Oct 21 with 2091 views | exhmrc1 |
| Clydach murders on 15:04 - Oct 21 by onehunglow |
Were you in Court trevelin? |
Can I ask are you related to Dai Morris or someone independent. | | | |
| Clydach murders on 15:07 - Oct 21 with 2090 views | trampie |
Beyond reasonable doubt ?, that is the test, has that standard been met in this case ?, from what I've read I would say it hasn't, that doesn't mean the convicted is innocent of the crime just that it's not beyond reasonable doubt and therefore should not have been found guilty.
Court cases are a game, it's not about finding the truth, whether somebody was guilty or not guilty but who has the best barristers or at least which side can persuade the jury on any given case.
As regards been found guilty twice, in the first case there was a conflict of interest, in the second case the jury probably knew the outcome of the first case.
As regards multiple retrials and appeals it doesn't necessarily underline the original verdict, as new evidence has to be introduced, so if the jury got it wrong then it's doubly hard for somebody to get it overturned, multiple cases and appeals might mean the case is more unsafe than the person definitely done it. |  |
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| Clydach murders on 15:12 - Oct 21 with 2087 views | onehunglow |
Yes,I am not and utterly independent.
How can people be so sure of guilt or not when they were not there to hear the evidence. | |
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| Clydach murders on 15:16 - Oct 21 with 2082 views | theloneranger |
| Clydach murders on 14:25 - Oct 21 by trefelinjack |
It seems that you are doing exactly what South Wales police have done in the Clydach murders and countless other wrong convictions, and that is -
. Making the evidence fit the suspect
The reason why you are repeating the "gold chain" and "two juries" argument is because you lack any evidence on dai commuting the murders. An example of your complete brainwashed argument goes as follow -
. Dai gives a perfectly plausible explanation of why he lied and how his chain ended up in mandys House, yet you dismiss it easily however, you seem easily convinced and make up a story about how the most senior officer can leave after 10mins of a brutal murder, dissappear and then use an untraceable phone call out of his office. A complete derogation of duty no matter what the circumstances.
Are you honestly telling me that a gold chain has left you beyond reasonable doubt that he is guilty despite the fact that -
. No motive to kill family
. No DNA found of dai at the house
. No eyewitnesses see dai in or near the house
. Hand print at scene not matching his
. DNA found at house that was not his
If you think this is beyond reasonable doubt of guilty then I seriously hope u are never selected for jury service. |
... "Dai gives a perfectly plausible explanation of why he lied"
Morris maintained that he lied to the police earlier because he didn't want his then partner Mandy Jewell who he was living with to find out that he was in a relationship with Amanda Powell???
So he would rather his partner and the public believe he had committed 4 horrific murders?? |  |
| Everyday above ground ... Is a good day! 😎 |
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| Clydach murders on 15:18 - Oct 21 with 2080 views | Joe_bradshaw |
| Clydach murders on 15:16 - Oct 21 by theloneranger |
... "Dai gives a perfectly plausible explanation of why he lied"
Morris maintained that he lied to the police earlier because he didn't want his then partner Mandy Jewell who he was living with to find out that he was in a relationship with Amanda Powell???
So he would rather his partner and the public believe he had committed 4 horrific murders?? |
A liar gives a perfectly plausible explanation of why he's a liar.
Yeah, right. | |
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| Clydach murders on 15:19 - Oct 21 with 2079 views | onehunglow |
Tramp.
top plagiarising what I pot ,mun 
It is absolutely a game no more no les and any honest Barrister would tell you so. I use "honest" as a rhetorical reference ,of course.
The best barristers are ones who win,the richest ones too becasue they take the high profile cases.
I read a book recently of the Moors Murderers where nobody less than Lord Emlyn Hoosen,Lib MP defended Brady .Some job that eh. Hindley's by the Recorder of Salford himself.. Big names for the big jobs and the big money. | |
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| Clydach murders on 15:25 - Oct 21 with 2076 views | trampie |
The conduct of the police directly involved in this case is unbelievable, if somebody else had been put on trial for these murders before Morris was would that other person (persons) had been found guilty ???
I know a lot won't understand that paragraph, others were in the frame probably before Morris, from what I had read some would say there was an equally if not stronger case against others, if one of them had been put on trial before Morris for the same crimes, then one of them might have been found guilty of the same crimes he was, as some individuals were not able to give reasons for their whereabouts, behaviour etc and some would say that there would have been more motive on the part of others than there was on Morris part.
It all underlines that the process is a game, a legal game, lots of innocent people are found guilty of crimes they did not commit, I'm not saying that is the case here but from the legal game point of view, was he guilty beyond reasonable doubt ? [Post edited 21 Oct 2020 15:32]
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| Clydach murders on 16:01 - Oct 21 with 2050 views | trampie |
Just noticed the name of the programme the Beeb are putting out about it tomorrow, it's called :- The Clydach Murders: Beyond Reasonable Doubt. | |
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| Clydach murders on 16:09 - Oct 21 with 2041 views | Andy1300 |
| Clydach murders on 15:25 - Oct 21 by trampie |
The conduct of the police directly involved in this case is unbelievable, if somebody else had been put on trial for these murders before Morris was would that other person (persons) had been found guilty ???
I know a lot won't understand that paragraph, others were in the frame probably before Morris, from what I had read some would say there was an equally if not stronger case against others, if one of them had been put on trial before Morris for the same crimes, then one of them might have been found guilty of the same crimes he was, as some individuals were not able to give reasons for their whereabouts, behaviour etc and some would say that there would have been more motive on the part of others than there was on Morris part.
It all underlines that the process is a game, a legal game, lots of innocent people are found guilty of crimes they did not commit, I'm not saying that is the case here but from the legal game point of view, was he guilty beyond reasonable doubt ? [Post edited 21 Oct 2020 15:32]
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No he wasn’t guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
The one who most believe is the real killer, is now in a completely different job where nobody is allowed to ask of his previous job [Post edited 21 Oct 2020 16:13]
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| Clydach murders on 16:10 - Oct 21 with 2041 views | exhmrc1 |
| Clydach murders on 15:07 - Oct 21 by trampie |
Beyond reasonable doubt ?, that is the test, has that standard been met in this case ?, from what I've read I would say it hasn't, that doesn't mean the convicted is innocent of the crime just that it's not beyond reasonable doubt and therefore should not have been found guilty.
Court cases are a game, it's not about finding the truth, whether somebody was guilty or not guilty but who has the best barristers or at least which side can persuade the jury on any given case.
As regards been found guilty twice, in the first case there was a conflict of interest, in the second case the jury probably knew the outcome of the first case.
As regards multiple retrials and appeals it doesn't necessarily underline the original verdict, as new evidence has to be introduced, so if the jury got it wrong then it's doubly hard for somebody to get it overturned, multiple cases and appeals might mean the case is more unsafe than the person definitely done it. |
From what you read isnt necessarily right. The police put a case for perversion of the course of justice again the Lewis family to the Crown Prosecution Service who rejected it. This wasnt for murder. Some who intensely dislike the Police use that to say they were involved in the murder.
The case against Morris was whether he committed murder. It had nothing to do with the Lewis family although his defence team tried to make them the guilty party. He was told by one of his legal team he couldnt represent him because he had represented one of the Lewis family. Morris still wanted the solicitor to represent him even though he knew about the conflict of interest and the solicitor did so.
The bottom line is we werent there. 2 juries were and the trials used judges outside Wales. The Dawson/Power family also sat through the trials and they are also convinced of him being guilty. No book or TV programme is going to change that. | | | |
| Clydach murders on 16:24 - Oct 21 with 2027 views | trampie |
| Clydach murders on 16:10 - Oct 21 by exhmrc1 |
From what you read isnt necessarily right. The police put a case for perversion of the course of justice again the Lewis family to the Crown Prosecution Service who rejected it. This wasnt for murder. Some who intensely dislike the Police use that to say they were involved in the murder.
The case against Morris was whether he committed murder. It had nothing to do with the Lewis family although his defence team tried to make them the guilty party. He was told by one of his legal team he couldnt represent him because he had represented one of the Lewis family. Morris still wanted the solicitor to represent him even though he knew about the conflict of interest and the solicitor did so.
The bottom line is we werent there. 2 juries were and the trials used judges outside Wales. The Dawson/Power family also sat through the trials and they are also convinced of him being guilty. No book or TV programme is going to change that. |
What I've read isn't necessarily right and what you've read is right is it ?, oh aye.
The question is did he do it beyond reasonable doubt ?
That is not to say he did or didn't do it, but did he do it beyond reasonable doubt ?, that is the fuss around the case. [Post edited 21 Oct 2020 16:49]
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| Clydach murders on 16:49 - Oct 21 with 2013 views | Joe_bradshaw |
We can only judge the verdicts if we’ve heard all the evidence put before the court. Every scrap of it because the devil is sometimes in the detail. Not just the “sexy” bits in the press or the books written from a biased standpoint and in order to make money.
Two juries have decided he is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. They have heard the complete evidence. | |
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| Clydach murders on 17:04 - Oct 21 with 2009 views | exhmrc1 |
| Clydach murders on 16:24 - Oct 21 by trampie |
What I've read isn't necessarily right and what you've read is right is it ?, oh aye.
The question is did he do it beyond reasonable doubt ?
That is not to say he did or didn't do it, but did he do it beyond reasonable doubt ?, that is the fuss around the case. [Post edited 21 Oct 2020 16:49]
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2 juries who heard all the evidence decided unanimously on 2 separate occasions it was guilty. Each and every member of the 23 who sat felt it was beyond reasonable doubt or they wouldn't have found him guilty. That speaks volumes yet those who read books or see TV programmes and didnt hear all the evidence believe otherwise.
I dont think anybody other than those who sat through the trial are in a better position to decide otherwise on what is basically hearsay. | | | |
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