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Remain With or Leave the EU on 15:49 - Jun 11 by blueytheblue
Not a Remainer but sadly those questions are easily answered irrespective of remain/leave.
1) driving on right hand side - because it would be prohibitively expensive to change. Plus it would give continental based lorry drivers o reason to act as utter c*cks on our roads...
2) Euro - because we had the self awareness to realise that harmonising disparate economies, countries into one single great currency would lead to problems...
3) No water cannons - because Britain has a fine tradition of soap dodging protestors. Can't have Swampy and Swampetta getting cleaned up, they'd then have no reason for not getting a job...
Oh ffs, stop trying to be humerous and give it some thought before you answer
[Post edited 12 Jun 2016 9:21]
It's just the internet, init.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:25 - Jun 12 with 1806 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 09:17 - Jun 12 by Brynmill_Jack
There are closed minds and swivel eyed loons on both sides of this "debate" believe me.
The amount of misinformation from both sides is masking the inner workings neither want us to know about - vested interests , corruption etc etc. I don't trust any of them but our politicians can be at least held accountable and voted out if office.
The European Union and it's treatment of the Greeks in particular as well as the economic mess they're in because of the admission of countries like Greece to the eurozone screams "keep away" to me..
There is also the matter of TTIP which will sadly come as a fait accompli to those in the EU but not for us if we get out.
Yeh you make a good point about TTIP, it certainly is a concern.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 11:32 - Jun 12 with 1736 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 13:04 - Jun 11 by blueytheblue
Point is, research costs money.
Scientists generally operate on research grants. I suspect funding would be far more difficult for any scientist going against the norm, hence private funding would be required - which then leads to obvious complaints about potential bias.
I'm just very skeptical of any claims "the science is done".
Still, I'm sure Al Gore will solve it whilst emitting carbon in his private jet...
Bluey, the same PR and lobbying companies that are feeding you the bullshit you believe about climate change are the same PR and lobbying companies that were telling the world that smoking doesn't cause cancer in the eighties, when everyone knew that smoking causes cancer in the eighties. These people are paid by huge businesses who want to carry on making huge amounts of money.
They put out misinformation because they are paid to put out misinformation on behalf of tobacco companies and Big Oil.
You constantly repeat the same misinformation that these companies are putting out. The same talking points all the time. Like every climate change sceptic.
What's more likely? 97% of scientists in the world who know anything about the subject are deliberately lying to get more grants? Or big business is lying to protect their profits despite nearly all scientists saying they are wrong.
C'mon mun. I know you're not a dull person. Don't believe dull things for political reasons.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 12:52 - Jun 12 with 1691 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 11:32 - Jun 12 by Humpty
Bluey, the same PR and lobbying companies that are feeding you the bullshit you believe about climate change are the same PR and lobbying companies that were telling the world that smoking doesn't cause cancer in the eighties, when everyone knew that smoking causes cancer in the eighties. These people are paid by huge businesses who want to carry on making huge amounts of money.
They put out misinformation because they are paid to put out misinformation on behalf of tobacco companies and Big Oil.
You constantly repeat the same misinformation that these companies are putting out. The same talking points all the time. Like every climate change sceptic.
What's more likely? 97% of scientists in the world who know anything about the subject are deliberately lying to get more grants? Or big business is lying to protect their profits despite nearly all scientists saying they are wrong.
C'mon mun. I know you're not a dull person. Don't believe dull things for political reasons.
Eh?
I've never said climate change isn't happening. What I'm saying is that so much in science isn't known that at this point, saying the "science is done" is ridiculous. Let's be honest, the climate experts at the Met Office regularly get weather forecasts wrong...
The reality is, if you believe any scientist trying to get a grant showing that maybe the conventional theory is wrong on climate change will get that grant... not really happening. I'm not talking about whackjobs like Piers Corbyn.
My concerns are more that there's an overwhelming arrogance in the "we are right, there's absolutely no doubt" which is the kind of thing that tends to bite people on the arse. Whilst comments may have been taken out of context from the UEA emails leak, the fact remains that UEA top honchos in this area were cynically giving advice on how to evade FoI requests. From memory, didn't they also refuse to release base station data claiming it was "copyrighted"? May be wrong on that, long time since I looked at it. Certainly the FoI avoidance is worrying from my point of view.
Where discrepancies occur from the models, those need to be examined, explained, models refined. It'll be an ongoing process. I'm sure there was broad consensus the earth was flat at one point. We simply don't know enough at this point in time imo to be arrogant in proclaiming solutions.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 12:52 - Jun 12 by blueytheblue
Eh?
I've never said climate change isn't happening. What I'm saying is that so much in science isn't known that at this point, saying the "science is done" is ridiculous. Let's be honest, the climate experts at the Met Office regularly get weather forecasts wrong...
The reality is, if you believe any scientist trying to get a grant showing that maybe the conventional theory is wrong on climate change will get that grant... not really happening. I'm not talking about whackjobs like Piers Corbyn.
My concerns are more that there's an overwhelming arrogance in the "we are right, there's absolutely no doubt" which is the kind of thing that tends to bite people on the arse. Whilst comments may have been taken out of context from the UEA emails leak, the fact remains that UEA top honchos in this area were cynically giving advice on how to evade FoI requests. From memory, didn't they also refuse to release base station data claiming it was "copyrighted"? May be wrong on that, long time since I looked at it. Certainly the FoI avoidance is worrying from my point of view.
Where discrepancies occur from the models, those need to be examined, explained, models refined. It'll be an ongoing process. I'm sure there was broad consensus the earth was flat at one point. We simply don't know enough at this point in time imo to be arrogant in proclaiming solutions.
I'm not sure which posters were saying that the "science is done". I said that scepticism is essential to progress in science.
On the flip side, if the consensus suggests that we should act with policy x, y, or z then why shouldn't we act upon that? If the consensus is sufficiently challenged then of course we need to a new direction. Given that in virtually every other area of policy we act upon what is believed to be true at the time, I don't know why we wouldn't in this case, especially since the stakes could be so high.
If it's all crap and Al Gore really is the evil hypocrite some think he is, the economic damage will be insignificant compared to the economic, human and social damage that would happen if he is right.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 13:06 - Jun 12 with 1683 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 11:37 - Jun 11 by A_Fans_Dad
You just don't get it do you? All those things were the Consensus before the Consesus was proved to be completely and utterly WRONG. They have now had to agree that Saturated fat is much better for you than Unsaturated, but for the last 25 years the consensus was saturated fat was bad for you. Nobody believed that Stomach Ulcers were caused by a Bacteria, the consensus was anything but, until it was proved by 2 Australians. Nobody belived in Tectonic Plates, the consensus was that the world was made as it is today, until proved completely wrong. They are just a few of the modern ones, hisorically there are a lot more the most famous ones being Galileo - the earth goes around the sun. The Earth was Flat. The "Ether".
All those were "Consensus" until some Wacko nutjob proved the Establishment wrong. In most cases it was individuals, today there are many Scientists that do not believe that Global Warming is any kind of problem and it is not controlled by CO2. You do know what the "Pause" is don't you?
In those examples you gave, the new theories were not put forward by nutjobs, they were put forward by scientists. When other scientists examined their theories and checked the evidence they accepted the new theory. Climate change has been examined in great detail by thousands of scientists all over the world using lots of different methods and they have come to the conclusion that it's man made.
Often people come out with "scientists keep changing their minds", when what actually happens is that a small study is published and picked up by the media, then later another small study by a different group shows different results. You generally find that when you do bigger, better trials and experiments you get closer to the truth and the outliers tend to disappear.
A classic example is the MMR scare a few years ago. Andrew Wakefield conducted a very small study (his methods and motivation have been questioned) which showed a correlation between MMR and autism. The media and the public went mental. When bigger studies were done (some covering thousands of children), there wasn't any correlation to see. Unfortunately, the early small studies tend to get the headlines and the larger correct ones aren't so exciting.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 13:11 - Jun 12 with 1675 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 13:06 - Jun 12 by somersetsimon
In those examples you gave, the new theories were not put forward by nutjobs, they were put forward by scientists. When other scientists examined their theories and checked the evidence they accepted the new theory. Climate change has been examined in great detail by thousands of scientists all over the world using lots of different methods and they have come to the conclusion that it's man made.
Often people come out with "scientists keep changing their minds", when what actually happens is that a small study is published and picked up by the media, then later another small study by a different group shows different results. You generally find that when you do bigger, better trials and experiments you get closer to the truth and the outliers tend to disappear.
A classic example is the MMR scare a few years ago. Andrew Wakefield conducted a very small study (his methods and motivation have been questioned) which showed a correlation between MMR and autism. The media and the public went mental. When bigger studies were done (some covering thousands of children), there wasn't any correlation to see. Unfortunately, the early small studies tend to get the headlines and the larger correct ones aren't so exciting.
Wakefield fabricated evidence, pointing people to a different solution he had a financial interest in.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 13:05 - Jun 12 by nice_to_michu
I'm not sure which posters were saying that the "science is done". I said that scepticism is essential to progress in science.
On the flip side, if the consensus suggests that we should act with policy x, y, or z then why shouldn't we act upon that? If the consensus is sufficiently challenged then of course we need to a new direction. Given that in virtually every other area of policy we act upon what is believed to be true at the time, I don't know why we wouldn't in this case, especially since the stakes could be so high.
If it's all crap and Al Gore really is the evil hypocrite some think he is, the economic damage will be insignificant compared to the economic, human and social damage that would happen if he is right.
You've never done an induction course at Met Office then ;) No poster here has said that.
My concern is if the consensus right now with the limited knowledge we have sends us down the wrong long term route.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 20:58 - Jun 12 by exiledclaseboy
Innit. You can't make this stuff up.
If we'd end up voting to leave it'll be Cameron's fault for running the most inept, negative and pathetic campaign certainly in my living memory.
[Post edited 12 Jun 2016 20:58]
The public got fooled once by Cameron at the last General Election and his tories lies(attempted cut on benefits, then the lords ruled against him etc) and now have a better perception on his spin and lies. Remain now are trying to get Gordon Brown to save the day. My household we are trying to guess the big propaganda story that will sway the votes to remain at the last minute. I'm going for a Michael Gove sex scandal first followed by Prince William brave heart plead with the country.
Even when you know, you never know?
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:21 - Jun 12 with 1505 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:17 - Jun 12 by jojaca
The public got fooled once by Cameron at the last General Election and his tories lies(attempted cut on benefits, then the lords ruled against him etc) and now have a better perception on his spin and lies. Remain now are trying to get Gordon Brown to save the day. My household we are trying to guess the big propaganda story that will sway the votes to remain at the last minute. I'm going for a Michael Gove sex scandal first followed by Prince William brave heart plead with the country.
The 12bn of cuts was in their manifesto so public were hardly fooled. The problem was the polls showed a hung parliament it was to be bargained away with the liberals. Everyone knew that.
Cameron was gutted with the result he wanted another coalition. One nation tories and the right hate each other. We are now starting to see it in public
My father voted labour and his father voted labour and his father voted labour so I vote labour
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:27 - Jun 12 with 1496 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:05 - Jun 12 by donkeylabour
I disagree, it would be because leave have played the immigration card beautifully and labour have a weak eurosceptic leader.
I do despair though - it's a classic turkeys voting for Christmas scenario all because of bigotry.
I'm a supporter of moderate conservatism I will not be supporting the right wing ids/Johnson/farage etc cabal.
If the pound goes through the floor this will have devastating consequences but hey who cares we can control Eu immigration. Shocking
[Post edited 12 Jun 2016 21:10]
While I agree that Labour should have been far more proactive in the campaign, to absolve Cameron of blame and pin it on Corbyn is ridiculous. Cameron is the prime minister, the leader of the governing party and de facto head of state. He called the referendum for purely political purposes, to lance the decades old boil in his own party and to try to pull the rug from under UKIP. HE's played fast and loose with the UK's future and instead of making a positive case to remain he's focused on increasingly outlandish attempts to terrify people into voting his way. It hasn't worked and it now looks like we'll leave. It'll be his fault, his alone and that will be his legacy.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:05 - Jun 12 by donkeylabour
I disagree, it would be because leave have played the immigration card beautifully and labour have a weak eurosceptic leader.
I do despair though - it's a classic turkeys voting for Christmas scenario all because of bigotry.
I'm a supporter of moderate conservatism I will not be supporting the right wing ids/Johnson/farage etc cabal.
If the pound goes through the floor this will have devastating consequences but hey who cares we can control Eu immigration. Shocking
[Post edited 12 Jun 2016 21:10]
It'll be all three things - Cameron and his inept campaign, coupled with weak Labour leadership on the issue because of Corbyn's own position and the immigration card being played beautifully.
Agree re turkeys voting for Christmas. It's almost unbelievable.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:34 - Jun 12 with 1484 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:27 - Jun 12 by exiledclaseboy
While I agree that Labour should have been far more proactive in the campaign, to absolve Cameron of blame and pin it on Corbyn is ridiculous. Cameron is the prime minister, the leader of the governing party and de facto head of state. He called the referendum for purely political purposes, to lance the decades old boil in his own party and to try to pull the rug from under UKIP. HE's played fast and loose with the UK's future and instead of making a positive case to remain he's focused on increasingly outlandish attempts to terrify people into voting his way. It hasn't worked and it now looks like we'll leave. It'll be his fault, his alone and that will be his legacy.
[Post edited 12 Jun 2016 21:29]
I don't think you can lay the blame entirely at Cameron's feet. People aren't likely to vote for Brexit just because of one badly run campaign.
There's a deep seated dislike and distrust of the entire EU project that's been there for decades. A large mass of the UK voting public that have been basically ignored by the leadership of both main parties for years. It's no great surprise that they're making their presence felt now.
Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:36 - Jun 12 with 1479 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:34 - Jun 12 by Dr_Winston
I don't think you can lay the blame entirely at Cameron's feet. People aren't likely to vote for Brexit just because of one badly run campaign.
There's a deep seated dislike and distrust of the entire EU project that's been there for decades. A large mass of the UK voting public that have been basically ignored by the leadership of both main parties for years. It's no great surprise that they're making their presence felt now.
Of course the blame is entirely at his feet. He called the referendum. Without it we wouldn't be on the verge of leaving the EU.
Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:36 - Jun 12 by exiledclaseboy
Of course the blame is entirely at his feet. He called the referendum. Without it we wouldn't be on the verge of leaving the EU.
[Post edited 12 Jun 2016 21:36]
If the EU hadn't been run the way it has been we wouldn't be on the verge of leaving, referendum or no. If it had stayed as the Common Market I'd be voting to remain.
Surely people getting the democratic choice whether to stay or go is a good thing?
This post has been edited by an administrator
Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back.
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:40 - Jun 12 with 1470 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:27 - Jun 12 by exiledclaseboy
While I agree that Labour should have been far more proactive in the campaign, to absolve Cameron of blame and pin it on Corbyn is ridiculous. Cameron is the prime minister, the leader of the governing party and de facto head of state. He called the referendum for purely political purposes, to lance the decades old boil in his own party and to try to pull the rug from under UKIP. HE's played fast and loose with the UK's future and instead of making a positive case to remain he's focused on increasingly outlandish attempts to terrify people into voting his way. It hasn't worked and it now looks like we'll leave. It'll be his fault, his alone and that will be his legacy.
[Post edited 12 Jun 2016 21:29]
People always say 'make a positive case' the fact is it doesn't work.
It's far too nuanced and doesn't deliver on the soundbite age. The tories in 2010 did a 'positive' campaign focussing on the big society they didn't win that's why they got Lyndon Crosby in to produce a more streamlined ruthless message.
Leave are winning by being easily as scaremongering they just happen to have a message that resonates and is simplistic 'take back control' it makes sense to people.
Leave haven't said anything remotely positive - they've tried that early on in the campaign and failed they restored to ukip scare tactics and it's working better for them.
My father voted labour and his father voted labour and his father voted labour so I vote labour
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Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:41 - Jun 12 with 1464 views
Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:38 - Jun 12 by Dr_Winston
If the EU hadn't been run the way it has been we wouldn't be on the verge of leaving, referendum or no. If it had stayed as the Common Market I'd be voting to remain.
Surely people getting the democratic choice whether to stay or go is a good thing?
This post has been edited by an administrator
The first sentence makes no sense. Without the referendum we'd be leaving nothing.
And no to your second point. As you know, I'm not a fan of referenda on principle. They have no purpose in a properly functioning parliamentary democracy. And given that you regularly bemoan the intelligence of the general populace are you saying you trust them to make the right decision? Or is it just ok this time because it's looking like they'll vote the way you want them to?
Remain With or Leave the EU on 21:41 - Jun 12 by donkeylabour
Mr democrat suddenly against democracy. I firmly believe in the referendum you sound awfully Authoritarian there
You know full well my views on referenda. They haven't changed. And earlier in this thread you've bemoaned their use yourself, calling them a disaster or similar. . At least be consistent if you're trying to bait me.
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