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Reply | Out on bail shopping
at 21:23 22 Jun 2020
Not sure he'll have the same bail conditions, or bail at all for that matter.
Also, not sure that standing around not intervening is the same as stabbing multiple people in the neck? |
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Thread | Trundle
at 15:20 19 Jun 2020
Getting value from my Times subscription this week:
Extraordinary Lee Trundle or prolific Ross McCormack — who is the greatest to never make the top flight?
In the next in our series debating the greats of sport, Tony Cascarino and Gregor Robertson discuss two talented strikers who failed to make it in top tier of English football
Tony Cascarino,
Gregor Robertson
Friday June 19 2020, 12.00pm, The Times
Lee Trundle
By Tony Cascarino
In terms of technical ability I think Lee Trundle was up there with the best players in the country for a time. I remember watching him during his Swansea career between 2003 and 2007 and wondering which of the English top-flight clubs were going to take a chance on him.
Trundle came up through the non-League system in England, as well as playing in the Welsh leagues, and only joined Swansea when he was 26. He scored 78 goals in 146 games as the club were promoted from League Two to League One, but it wasn’t just his goals that caught my eye – it was his touch and skill with the ball. I played at a higher level but I couldn’t lace Trundle’s boots in terms of skill and technical ability.
He had extraordinary talent and was capable of pulling off moments of magic, scoring screamers with his left foot or overhead kicks. But he also scored strange goals and goals from weird angles, the sort of thing you’d watch and wonder not only ‘how did he do that?’ but also ‘how did he even think to try that?’
He also looked like a big-time player off the pitch, with an image rights deal, the fancy (dodgy!) haircut and he dated a pop star, Liz McClarnon of Atomic Kitten. He had the lot but never made it to the top flight.
He reminded me of a Football League Matt Le Tissier, a player who, like Trundle, was a superb talent but was someone who finished his career with questions still lingering: Could he have played for one of the big teams? Should he have had more caps for England?
I wonder if those questions and a debate around why Trundle didn’t play higher come down to the physical demands of the game. Neither player was blessed with pace and neither of them were great in the air and there were questions marks over Trundle’s fitness too. Perhaps that all counted against Trundle and maybe some clubs considered him a luxury player, an idea which is supported by the fact he liked to play in that No 10 role.
Then there were all those silky skills. If you type in Lee Trundle on YouTube some of the first suggested options are ‘skills’ and television show Soccer AM and maybe his use of tricks made some think of him as something of a Harlem Globetrotter.
Trundle, pictured here for Swansea in 2004, is still playing in the game now
Trundle, pictured here for Swansea in 2004, is still playing in the game now
REBECCA NADEN/PA
After Swansea he joined Bristol City for nearly £1 million – a hefty price for a Championship club to pay in 2007 – but he didn’t settle and a failed stint at Leeds followed. I look back at that move and wonder what might have been if someone in the top flight had taken a chance on him, somewhere with a manager who might have got him a bit fitter and a bit sharper. Or if he’d been spotted earlier in his career.
Of course, in the modern game your physical ability is as important as your skill with the ball but when I saw Trundle play he just had that spark that I thought only the best have. His ability was extraordinary and he could embarrass defenders at all levels. It’s good to see that even now, aged 43, he is still playing and enjoying the game, most recently in the Welsh leagues for Ammanford AFC.
There are a few defenders I can think of who were big enough and tough enough that they could have made it at the top, and I’m sure Gregor will make a good case for Ross McCormack, but if we’re talking about greatness outside the top flight, for me there is no one better than Trundle.
Ross McCormack
By Gregor Robertson
Ross McCormack in his pomp could have walked into more or less any Championship team in the past decade. He would, to my mind, have been a valuable addition to numerous top-flight teams, too. There are a number of reasons why the former Cardiff City, Leeds United, Fulham and Aston Villa striker, who has fallen from grace in recent years, failed to reach the top flight, but was he good enough? Absolutely.
Before we go any further, let me address the elephant in the room, which some of you may have noticed. McCormack did, of course, play in the top flight – in Scotland – albeit briefly, for Rangers, where his career began, and Motherwell. Now, I’m Scottish and have no inclination to debate the the standard of the Scottish Premiership here. I’m writing this for The Times of London and constructing an argument that McCormack had what it takes to play top flight football in England, so let’s agree to park that to one side . . .
I should also point out that our paths crossed, briefly, in 2005. McCormack was called into a couple of Scotland Under-21 squads of which I was a part, for games against Norway and Belarus. He was 18 at the time, stayed on the bench during both games, but his quality in training was blindingly obvious. He was highly thought of by Rangers, bristling with confidence – had a swagger, even – and had a steely, determined stare. He also struck a football as sweetly as anyone I can recall seeing at close quarters.
I remember, after training one day in Norway, watching as he took a bag of balls and belted them, one after the next, into either top corner from 25 yards. He had the kind of strike that made a crossbar shudder. Coaches had to drag him off the training ground back then. He played with a childlike freedom I don’t think he really lost until, well, he joined Aston Villa – of which their fans won’t need reminding.
But first, let’s remember the good stuff, because there was plenty of it. McCormack, in his prime – and in particular a three-year period between 2013 and 2016 – was a bullish force of nature, and a prolific finisher. The kind of forward who loved to roam and be involved and link play, to rain down strikes on goal with either foot from audacious distances or angles. A player who made supporters quicken their step to the stadium each Saturday.
His record of 120 goals in 333 Championship games is made all the more impressive by the fact he played more than half of those, over eight and a bit seasons, as a second striker and laid on 58 assists for team-mates in that time. He got 20-plus league goals in a season for three clubs: 21 in his first full campaign for Cardiff in 2008-09; 28 for a Leeds United team labouring in the bottom half in 2013-14; and 21 for Fulham as they narrowly avoided relegation in 2015-16. His talismanic status to those Leeds and Fulham sides was underpinned when he was handed the captain’s armband.
McCormack, centre, became something of a talisman during his time at Leeds
McCormack, centre, became something of a talisman during his time at Leeds
ANNA GOWTHORPE/PA
So why did he never reach the Premier League? A combination of poor choices and, perhaps, advice, plus misfortune all undoubtedly played their part. His second season in Wales, which was also hampered by hamstring issues, ended with the Bluebirds losing 3-2 to Blackpool in the 2010 play-off final.
At Leeds, whom he joined three months later, the club were floundering between managers under the erratic ownership of Massimo Cellino. Still, McCormack was linked with, or subject to bids from, West Ham United, Wolves, Newcastle United, Sunderland, Blackburn Rovers and Middlesbrough, among others.
And yet when a whopping £11 million bid was finally accepted, in 2014, it came from Fulham, who had just been relegated from the Premier League. Both Fulham and Aston Villa – who paid £12 million for McCormack two years later after their own descent from the top tier – were promotion favourites, but bloated squads and expectations initially weighed them down.
Maybe, had he stayed at Fulham, I would have had to pick another nearly man. But hindsight is a wonderful thing and, in truth, it is clear McCormack has been difficult to work with at times over the years. There was always an underlying sense, too, that he played the game for himself more than for the team. Many forwards do, of course, but what followed at Villa has not reflected upon him kindly.
Just three goals in 20 appearances. Those headlines in January 2017, which he will never shed, about failing to show for training because the electric gates at his home in Solihull wouldn’t open. Four loan moves away from the club, including to Australian A-League teams Melbourne City and Central Coast Mariners, where instead of adding to his 13 Scotland caps he was laying on an assist for the world’s fastest man, Usain Bolt, to score his first goal for the club.
Loans to Nottingham Forest and Motherwell flopped too and indiscipline reared its head again amid reports of personal issues. A friend who worked with McCormack said his love for the game had, by then, evaporated. McCormack’s contract, which reportedly rose from £40,000 to £70,000 per week after Villa’s promotion last May, was cancelled by mutual consent in June. He’s a wealthy man, but remains without a club aged 33, and this is not how McCormack, or those of us who saw him illuminate the Championship, would have envisaged his career burning out.
We can, of course, be quick to judge a player we perceive to have fallen short of fulfilling his talent. I am always hesitant to do so. Regrets are personal, as are the choices we make in football, and in life. McCormack has made mistakes, but he was good enough to grace the Premier League and with a bit of luck he might have.
So better, therefore, to remember the thrilling young tyro who terrorised Championship defences than to ponder, for too long, what might have been.
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Reply | Anyone been to Egypt?
at 23:52 18 Jun 2020
Sorry, for such a feminist to defend this place is amazing.
Horrible country with horrible attitudes to women. |
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Reply | Dominic Raab
at 23:50 18 Jun 2020
I apologise, I feel I've definitely seen posts from you saying exactly that, if not, i'm wrong.
You definitely feel you're more enlightened, intelligent, grounded etc from living up there and you project it on us mere mortals who decide to stay at home.
Let's look at posters like waynkerr, warwick, yourself,and others...
All of you think you're the intellectual arbiters of this site.
Which is fine, however you're not always right.
Arrggh, just tipped crispy beef all over myself. |
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Reply | Dominic Raab
at 23:21 18 Jun 2020
I don't know either way to be honest.
All I know is that every 'cause', you jump readily at it.
You admit that you love living in London because you feel it makes you more enlightened than 'back home' in Swansea.
I'm only calling you out on your failures, not your beliefs. |
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Reply | Anyone been to Egypt?
at 23:11 18 Jun 2020
Egypt is full of horrible misogynists. Do not go there if you value your wife or daughter. |
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Reply | (No subject) (n/t)
at 23:07 18 Jun 2020
Hi drizzy, could you please describe your experiences as a minority growing up in Newport.
Genuinely thank you. |
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Reply | Dominic Raab
at 23:00 18 Jun 2020
Why do you abuse 'uneducated' people? I agree with , much you say, yet you always resort to calling people who don't agree with you uneducated'?
Your professed specialism in finance is well known, yet someone I know laughs at your inaccuracies. Doesn't make you unintelligent, just confirms you are not as intelligent as you think you are . |
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Reply | Uncle Ben....Gone
at 22:54 18 Jun 2020
Not replying to my post? Just putting a bit of context out there about the plane.
I really respect you as a poster, yet you've fallen in to the bash the government over everything role.
It doesn't suit you |
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