| Second BREXIT Referendum 16:30 - Dec 21 with 5151 views | johnlangy |
Time to put your thinking cap on again ohl  .
In my 'Thank You Nigel Farage' thread I suggested that Reform are going to have a huge bearing on the result of the next General Election. This thread is about the thought that things could go the completely opposite way.
One thing we know for certain (there's not many times you can say that in politics) is that Reform, aka Nigel Farage, are not going to stand on a platform of holding a second Brexit referendum at the next GE. Kemi Badenoch is a brexiteer so that rules out the Torys, at least while she's the leader.
So what if Labour does ? When a second ref has been talked about before now the general consensus has been that it's too early, that Brexit has to be given time to see how it works. If Labour do offer a second ref at the next GE and they win again the referendum probably wouldn't happen till at least 2032. So that would mean sixteen years after the first one. No one could argue that that is not enough time to see if Brexit was working or not.
And what would be the result. As far as i'm aware every single poll that has been taken over the last few years on how people would vote in another ref has shown a substantial majority for rejoining (in May it was 55% wrong to leave with 31% saying it was right to leave). And that majority will only get bigger. In the first ref it was mostly older people who voted to leave while younger people voted to remain. And there's only one way that different demography is going to change.
Over the next few years we may get caught up in a Trade war if Trump does follow up on his ideas about tarrifs. So little old UK would be stuck between the USA and the EU in that battle. And Labour will be in the perfect position to use that as an argument to rejoin especially as they'll have been working with the EU for a few years at that time trying to improve the current Brexit deal.
Another side benefit to Labour, who are a very pro Union party, is that a rejoin vote may also see off Scotlands fight for Indy. Just a thought. |  | | |  |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 10:47 - Dec 29 with 899 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 17:35 - Dec 28 by Kilkennyjack |
Wales is not a Principality.
Wales is a nation.
England is a nation.
Scotland is a nation.
Ireland is a nation.
Northern Ireland is a 100 year old gerrymandered statelet, not a nation.
The UK comprises of 3 nations and currently the Northern Ireland statelet.
The UK is part of UN.
Not sure why any of this surprises anyone who lives in the UK. |
More BS then, who mentioned Principality, besides yourself?
I'll try again, is Wales a sovereign nation and member of the EU, yes or no? | | | |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 11:00 - Dec 29 with 885 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 17:35 - Dec 28 by Kilkennyjack |
Wales is not a Principality.
Wales is a nation.
England is a nation.
Scotland is a nation.
Ireland is a nation.
Northern Ireland is a 100 year old gerrymandered statelet, not a nation.
The UK comprises of 3 nations and currently the Northern Ireland statelet.
The UK is part of UN.
Not sure why any of this surprises anyone who lives in the UK. |
Hold up now, Northern Ireland is a nation by the very same definition you have used for Wales. It is a country as defined by yourself, you can't have it both ways.
To quote someone, you can't duck reality. Reality is what is happened or is happening. However, reality is not what you believe will happen, unless it actually happens. Until then it is just your opinion.
My opinion is that at some point the Uk may inquire about EU membership if the conditions are right AND we meet the qualifying criteria. It also depends on what the EU is in the future because the current political situation across the EU is highly fractious and the more members it absorbs the more fractious it will get.
You can't claim to want independence AND want to join the EU which would see us in pretty much the same position as we are now, a region of a bigger state with that bigger state setting the rules as it wishes. | | | |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 14:27 - Dec 29 with 830 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 11:00 - Dec 29 by SullutaCreturned |
Hold up now, Northern Ireland is a nation by the very same definition you have used for Wales. It is a country as defined by yourself, you can't have it both ways.
To quote someone, you can't duck reality. Reality is what is happened or is happening. However, reality is not what you believe will happen, unless it actually happens. Until then it is just your opinion.
My opinion is that at some point the Uk may inquire about EU membership if the conditions are right AND we meet the qualifying criteria. It also depends on what the EU is in the future because the current political situation across the EU is highly fractious and the more members it absorbs the more fractious it will get.
You can't claim to want independence AND want to join the EU which would see us in pretty much the same position as we are now, a region of a bigger state with that bigger state setting the rules as it wishes. |
I absolutely want Wales to be like Ireland and be in the EU.
If you cant see the difference between a political union started in 1707, a political union started after WWII then i cant help you.
Ireland is a nation.
Northern Ireland was a made up statelet which is only 100 years old.
Be lucky if it lasts another 5 years.
Come on the Swans … 🙏🏼 |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 14:29 - Dec 29 with 829 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 10:47 - Dec 29 by SullutaCreturned |
More BS then, who mentioned Principality, besides yourself?
I'll try again, is Wales a sovereign nation and member of the EU, yes or no? |
Read my post again and you will have your answer.
Not my problem if you cant comprehend these concepts.
Wales is a nation whether you like it or not.
You dont make the rules. | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 20:14 - Dec 29 with 777 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 14:29 - Dec 29 by Kilkennyjack |
Read my post again and you will have your answer.
Not my problem if you cant comprehend these concepts.
Wales is a nation whether you like it or not.
You dont make the rules. |
Another childish answer, as I said "apart from you" so clearly...NOBODY besides yourself.
Comprehension is your big failing, you clearly do not comprehend the difference between nation and soveriegn nation, I have asked you a few times now. The big problem is you don't want to answer because you'll have to admit to yourself that you're wrong.
Better to look stupid than admit being wrong I guess, it happens to you a lot.
Lets try a slightly rephrased question...IS Wales a member of the UNITED NATIONS? Yes or no will do. | | | |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 10:48 - Dec 31 with 653 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 20:14 - Dec 29 by SullutaCreturned |
Another childish answer, as I said "apart from you" so clearly...NOBODY besides yourself.
Comprehension is your big failing, you clearly do not comprehend the difference between nation and soveriegn nation, I have asked you a few times now. The big problem is you don't want to answer because you'll have to admit to yourself that you're wrong.
Better to look stupid than admit being wrong I guess, it happens to you a lot.
Lets try a slightly rephrased question...IS Wales a member of the UNITED NATIONS? Yes or no will do. |
Wales is a nation.
That is a fact.
A nation is a large group of people with similar characteristics and culture.
A country is a geographic region that has boundaries and borders.
The important thing to remember is that a country has its own national government while a nation has its own national character.
Being a member if the UN or not is not the bottom line.
You might as well ask me if Wales is in the European Song Contest, or has an International Cricket team.
None of this matters.
And yet Wales is still factually a nation.
Suck it up buttercup …. | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 10:59 - Dec 31 with 633 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 10:48 - Dec 31 by Kilkennyjack |
Wales is a nation.
That is a fact.
A nation is a large group of people with similar characteristics and culture.
A country is a geographic region that has boundaries and borders.
The important thing to remember is that a country has its own national government while a nation has its own national character.
Being a member if the UN or not is not the bottom line.
You might as well ask me if Wales is in the European Song Contest, or has an International Cricket team.
None of this matters.
And yet Wales is still factually a nation.
Suck it up buttercup …. |
And more childishness, there is a big distinction between being a nation and being a sovereign nation.
Wales does have an international cricket team, the England & Wales cricket team.
Here we go again...you said,
A nation is a large group of people with similar characteristics and culture...therefore Northern Ireland is a nation...suck it up buttercup
A country is a geographic region that has boundaries and borders....therefore Northern Ireland is a country.
The important thing to remember is that a country has its own national government while a nation has its own national character...yeah.
So we get to the end and you still will not answer because you hate to admit you are wrong. Wales is NOT a sovereign nation or member of the UN.
Good grief but that shoukld have been easy, I have made the classic mistake and been dragged down to that level, except I haven't been beaten because I'm right
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 11:07 - Dec 31 with 632 views | AnotherJohn |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 10:48 - Dec 31 by Kilkennyjack |
Wales is a nation.
That is a fact.
A nation is a large group of people with similar characteristics and culture.
A country is a geographic region that has boundaries and borders.
The important thing to remember is that a country has its own national government while a nation has its own national character.
Being a member if the UN or not is not the bottom line.
You might as well ask me if Wales is in the European Song Contest, or has an International Cricket team.
None of this matters.
And yet Wales is still factually a nation.
Suck it up buttercup …. |
As has been said before, there are at least two definitions of nation; (a) as a cultural entity and (b) as a sovereign nation state. I've always maintained that the first usage is confusing because it leads people to mix up cultural entities with sovereign nations. It is the latter that the Jocks have in mind when they sing Flower of Scotland (and "be the nation again") in the "Six Nations" Championship, a paradox that illustrates the confusion. The SNP are well aware that a nation state has a set of core institutions that they do not yet possess and are trying to build. When, with Gething as First Minister, it was claimed that Wales was the first European nation with a black leader, this was again mixing apples and oranges, since all the other European "nations" that would come into people's minds were nation states. One may anyway wonder whether Hwntws and Gogs really form a single cultural entity or even a common genetic group.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/north-south-wales-walians-as-88733 | | | |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 12:49 - Dec 31 with 599 views | union_jack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 10:59 - Dec 31 by SullutaCreturned |
And more childishness, there is a big distinction between being a nation and being a sovereign nation.
Wales does have an international cricket team, the England & Wales cricket team.
Here we go again...you said,
A nation is a large group of people with similar characteristics and culture...therefore Northern Ireland is a nation...suck it up buttercup
A country is a geographic region that has boundaries and borders....therefore Northern Ireland is a country.
The important thing to remember is that a country has its own national government while a nation has its own national character...yeah.
So we get to the end and you still will not answer because you hate to admit you are wrong. Wales is NOT a sovereign nation or member of the UN.
Good grief but that shoukld have been easy, I have made the classic mistake and been dragged down to that level, except I haven't been beaten because I'm right
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One of you is discussing with your head, the other with your heart.
No prizes for guessing who is who😁 |  |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 14:17 - Dec 31 with 579 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 10:59 - Dec 31 by SullutaCreturned |
And more childishness, there is a big distinction between being a nation and being a sovereign nation.
Wales does have an international cricket team, the England & Wales cricket team.
Here we go again...you said,
A nation is a large group of people with similar characteristics and culture...therefore Northern Ireland is a nation...suck it up buttercup
A country is a geographic region that has boundaries and borders....therefore Northern Ireland is a country.
The important thing to remember is that a country has its own national government while a nation has its own national character...yeah.
So we get to the end and you still will not answer because you hate to admit you are wrong. Wales is NOT a sovereign nation or member of the UN.
Good grief but that shoukld have been easy, I have made the classic mistake and been dragged down to that level, except I haven't been beaten because I'm right
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You are being a bit twp.
Nobody ever said Wales was a sovereign nation.
But Wales is a nation.
You created a straw man argument and then shouted at yourself.
Repeat after me ….. Wales is a nation.
Thats all i was saying. | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 14:18 - Dec 31 with 576 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 12:49 - Dec 31 by union_jack |
One of you is discussing with your head, the other with your heart.
No prizes for guessing who is who😁 |
One is factually correct.
The other is arguing with himself.
I am glad you fully accept Wales is a nation.
My job here is done. | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 16:15 - Dec 31 with 541 views | union_jack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 14:18 - Dec 31 by Kilkennyjack |
One is factually correct.
The other is arguing with himself.
I am glad you fully accept Wales is a nation.
My job here is done. |
I do accept that. BUT it’s meaningless.
The only real definition of a nation / country accepted by the UN is that of a sovereign nation. That’s all that counts, the rest is just semantics. | |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 16:57 - Dec 31 with 514 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 16:15 - Dec 31 by union_jack |
I do accept that. BUT it’s meaningless.
The only real definition of a nation / country accepted by the UN is that of a sovereign nation. That’s all that counts, the rest is just semantics. |
Like you, i am looking forward to Wales and England, like Ireland, stepping forward to take their seats with the nations of the modern world.
10 years max. | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 17:05 - Dec 31 with 510 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 16:15 - Dec 31 by union_jack |
I do accept that. BUT it’s meaningless.
The only real definition of a nation / country accepted by the UN is that of a sovereign nation. That’s all that counts, the rest is just semantics. |
Therefore my argument contained no straw and Klikylie, yet again, went spinning around and ended up in the same place...Wrongton.
10 years he says, well he used to prattle on about independence, said Scotland would go and we wouldn't be far behind. Not surprisingly (after he was told plenty of times) he was wrong so now he's changed tack.
Only thing is, he's still wrong. Of all the accusations of straw man arguments posted on here, his actually is one, he attacks a distorted version of what was actually said.
Kilkylie is the ultimate straw man. | | | |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 17:12 - Dec 31 with 497 views | union_jack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 17:05 - Dec 31 by SullutaCreturned |
Therefore my argument contained no straw and Klikylie, yet again, went spinning around and ended up in the same place...Wrongton.
10 years he says, well he used to prattle on about independence, said Scotland would go and we wouldn't be far behind. Not surprisingly (after he was told plenty of times) he was wrong so now he's changed tack.
Only thing is, he's still wrong. Of all the accusations of straw man arguments posted on here, his actually is one, he attacks a distorted version of what was actually said.
Kilkylie is the ultimate straw man. |
Unfortunately, he thinks that saying the same thing over and over will make it happen. It won’t of course but ignorance is bliss to some. | |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 17:29 - Dec 31 with 493 views | raynor94 |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 17:12 - Dec 31 by union_jack |
Unfortunately, he thinks that saying the same thing over and over will make it happen. It won’t of course but ignorance is bliss to some. |
Sums him up perfectly |  |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 23:01 - Jan 1 with 401 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 17:12 - Dec 31 by union_jack |
Unfortunately, he thinks that saying the same thing over and over will make it happen. It won’t of course but ignorance is bliss to some. |
Yes work to do, but the outcome is inevitable.
The young are on board already. [Post edited 1 Jan 23:02]
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| Beware of the Risen People
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 23:28 - Jan 1 with 387 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 23:01 - Jan 1 by Kilkennyjack |
Yes work to do, but the outcome is inevitable.
The young are on board already. [Post edited 1 Jan 23:02]
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The young will get older and their thpought processes will change. That actually is inevitable. | | | |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 23:54 - Jan 1 with 375 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 23:28 - Jan 1 by SullutaCreturned |
The young will get older and their thpought processes will change. That actually is inevitable. |
Yes the brain matures and develops over time and added to the reality of life and other life experiences most people grow out of the student wishy washy politics and beliefs. |  |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 10:35 - Jan 2 with 304 views | Boundy |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 23:54 - Jan 1 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Yes the brain matures and develops over time and added to the reality of life and other life experiences most people grow out of the student wishy washy politics and beliefs. |
and that's exactly why Labour in Wales has lowered the the voting age to 16 , its just as well be six . | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 11:27 - Jan 2 with 270 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 23:54 - Jan 1 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Yes the brain matures and develops over time and added to the reality of life and other life experiences most people grow out of the student wishy washy politics and beliefs. |
Whats your view on the HS2 billions denied to Wales and the Crown Estate disparity between Scotland and Wales….?
These things damage the unionist cause as much as Mogg and Johnson did. | |
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 11:37 - Jan 2 with 265 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 10:35 - Jan 2 by Boundy |
and that's exactly why Labour in Wales has lowered the the voting age to 16 , its just as well be six . |
So …… you are arguing that an 80 year old in a care home with perhaps less understanding of the modern world, and certainly less personal stake in the future should get a vote, but a 16 year old with a more informed understanding of the modern world and certainly more stake in the future should not get a vote ?
Rightio ….
And to be consistent, are you also opposed to 16 year olds joining the Army ?
I think , maybe, that you are just frightened of young people because you know they dont think like you. | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Second BREXIT Referendum on 12:07 - Jan 2 with 235 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 11:37 - Jan 2 by Kilkennyjack |
So …… you are arguing that an 80 year old in a care home with perhaps less understanding of the modern world, and certainly less personal stake in the future should get a vote, but a 16 year old with a more informed understanding of the modern world and certainly more stake in the future should not get a vote ?
Rightio ….
And to be consistent, are you also opposed to 16 year olds joining the Army ?
I think , maybe, that you are just frightened of young people because you know they dont think like you. |
An 80 year old could still have plenty of younger family members and want the best for them
The average 16 year old isn't that well informed and doesn't care that much about anything much besides what they want. Here,
electoralcommission.org.uk/media-centre/young-voters-wales-need-more-support-engage-elections
And from that...
More education and engagement is needed to support young voters to understand and participate in Welsh elections, according to recent research and analysis by the Electoral Commission. Approximately one in five newly enfranchised 16-17 year olds in Wales registered to vote ahead of the local government election on 5 May, with turnout lowest amongst younger age groups.
Feedback gathered for the Commission’s post-poll report on the Welsh local government elections in 2022 found a lack of motivation to engage in elections amongst young people. Reasons given included not knowing enough about candidates, parties and the democratic process in general. The majority of voters in Wales remain confident the elections were well-run and satisfied with the process of voting and registering to vote.
The report also includes feedback from parents in Wales. While 77% of parents think it’s important that children learn the basics about politics, voting and democracy at school, just 22% think the current information their children get on these topics is sufficient. Parents in lower socio-economic households are also less likely to discuss politics at home, increasing the need for school-based learning.
So, 1 in 5 or 20% of 16 and 17 year olds voted. Understand that, 80% said they either didn't care or didn't know enough. More informed, definitely not, more stake in the future, I'm sure the average 80 year old still cares about their future.
You're very ageist as if old people don't matter anymore. I wonder how you'll feel when you're 80. | | | |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 13:40 - Jan 2 with 189 views | Whiterockin |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 12:07 - Jan 2 by SullutaCreturned |
An 80 year old could still have plenty of younger family members and want the best for them
The average 16 year old isn't that well informed and doesn't care that much about anything much besides what they want. Here,
electoralcommission.org.uk/media-centre/young-voters-wales-need-more-support-engage-elections
And from that...
More education and engagement is needed to support young voters to understand and participate in Welsh elections, according to recent research and analysis by the Electoral Commission. Approximately one in five newly enfranchised 16-17 year olds in Wales registered to vote ahead of the local government election on 5 May, with turnout lowest amongst younger age groups.
Feedback gathered for the Commission’s post-poll report on the Welsh local government elections in 2022 found a lack of motivation to engage in elections amongst young people. Reasons given included not knowing enough about candidates, parties and the democratic process in general. The majority of voters in Wales remain confident the elections were well-run and satisfied with the process of voting and registering to vote.
The report also includes feedback from parents in Wales. While 77% of parents think it’s important that children learn the basics about politics, voting and democracy at school, just 22% think the current information their children get on these topics is sufficient. Parents in lower socio-economic households are also less likely to discuss politics at home, increasing the need for school-based learning.
So, 1 in 5 or 20% of 16 and 17 year olds voted. Understand that, 80% said they either didn't care or didn't know enough. More informed, definitely not, more stake in the future, I'm sure the average 80 year old still cares about their future.
You're very ageist as if old people don't matter anymore. I wonder how you'll feel when you're 80. |
The 16 year olds will be old themselves one day. Short term ideology is no substitution for structured long term planning. |  | | |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 15:02 - Jan 2 with 133 views | Flashberryjack |
| Second BREXIT Referendum on 13:40 - Jan 2 by Whiterockin |
The 16 year olds will be old themselves one day. Short term ideology is no substitution for structured long term planning. |
"The 16 year olds will be old themselves one day"
If they are lucky. |  |
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