| Defending crosses 22:47 - Aug 31 with 3280 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
Why do we appear to have lost the ability to defend crosses this season?
Is this because we have zonal rather the man marking?
Great result though. |  | | |  |
| Defending crosses on 23:04 - Aug 31 with 3167 views | CateLeBonR |
"Lost the ability to defend crosses"
I'm not sure if that's true.
I thought we struggled with set pieces last night but not crosses in general. |  | | |
| Defending crosses on 23:41 - Aug 31 with 3081 views | ParkRoyalR |
| Defending crosses on 23:04 - Aug 31 by CateLeBonR |
"Lost the ability to defend crosses"
I'm not sure if that's true.
I thought we struggled with set pieces last night but not crosses in general. |
Steve Cook's positioning for Luton's last minute chance is very concerning and could go some way to explain, has a tendency to drop too deep and give his man too much space, he definitely got away with one there. | | | |
| Defending crosses on 01:04 - Sep 1 with 2950 views | HAYESBOY |
I think its still a problem. All 3 goals v WBA were from crosses and poor reaction/marking for all the goals.
What I did notice Friday night was that Colback was picking up McGuiness. Why? We need to organise better than that.
Half our problem is also not shutting down the crosses in the first place. We seem to sit off the player crossing the ball and not shut the space down to cut out the cross. |  |
| Smells like a trout farm in here |
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| Defending crosses on 06:45 - Sep 1 with 2750 views | dmm |
| Defending crosses on 01:04 - Sep 1 by HAYESBOY |
I think its still a problem. All 3 goals v WBA were from crosses and poor reaction/marking for all the goals.
What I did notice Friday night was that Colback was picking up McGuiness. Why? We need to organise better than that.
Half our problem is also not shutting down the crosses in the first place. We seem to sit off the player crossing the ball and not shut the space down to cut out the cross. |
As to shutting down wide players before they cross, I tend to agree. It seems to me that Paal in particular often doesn't get close enough to do this.
But, I think the other way of looking at this type of situation is if the defender gets too close he can more easily be beaten and the attacker gets in behind the defence.
Perhaps it's down to specific individual tactics that are felt will work best in each game. |  | | |
| Defending crosses on 08:19 - Sep 1 with 2549 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Defending crosses on 06:45 - Sep 1 by dmm |
As to shutting down wide players before they cross, I tend to agree. It seems to me that Paal in particular often doesn't get close enough to do this.
But, I think the other way of looking at this type of situation is if the defender gets too close he can more easily be beaten and the attacker gets in behind the defence.
Perhaps it's down to specific individual tactics that are felt will work best in each game. |
I woner if we defend narrow on purpose, dmm, rather than defend wide and run the risk of being beaten on the ground, then outnumbered and beaten in the air should the cross come in.
Paal does seem to get caught in between sometimes, neither closing or dropping, but then a lot of the time he's returning from an attack.
As for defending the crosses that do come in, the new keeper might be confusing things for now. Takes a while for defenders and the goalie to figure out who's coming for what. If - and I'm just guessing - that is the case then it might settle down a bit soon.
I thought we were excellent on defending crosses on Friday night.
Just looked up the stats:
Luton were succesful on 5 out of 33 crosses.
Not all of those were cleared or blocked, I'd imagine. Some would have been mishit.
But, for context, we had a massive 48 clearances in the game, a huge amount must have been from crosses. |  |
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| Defending crosses on 08:52 - Sep 1 with 2413 views | stevec |
1) No Bergovic.
I like the new keeper, great shot stopper but he is rooted to his line on crosses. There’s also the possibility that Nardi, being new, isn’t making himself heard. I would think purely on the basis Bergovic had been around the block a bit, higher level and all that, meant his shouts meant something.
Last season we conceded the least goals for years, so for all Bergovics faults, it’s hard to argue with the stats. We’ll have a better idea at the end of this season.
2) we’ve gone for ball playing wide men, small at that, no problem with that but it does mean Paal in particular and Dunne to a degree are now far more exposed, hence the time on the ball for crosses to be better directed.
Another reason why that 3 is so hard to get right. |  | | |
| Defending crosses on 09:13 - Sep 1 with 2344 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Defending crosses on 08:19 - Sep 1 by BrianMcCarthy |
I woner if we defend narrow on purpose, dmm, rather than defend wide and run the risk of being beaten on the ground, then outnumbered and beaten in the air should the cross come in.
Paal does seem to get caught in between sometimes, neither closing or dropping, but then a lot of the time he's returning from an attack.
As for defending the crosses that do come in, the new keeper might be confusing things for now. Takes a while for defenders and the goalie to figure out who's coming for what. If - and I'm just guessing - that is the case then it might settle down a bit soon.
I thought we were excellent on defending crosses on Friday night.
Just looked up the stats:
Luton were succesful on 5 out of 33 crosses.
Not all of those were cleared or blocked, I'd imagine. Some would have been mishit.
But, for context, we had a massive 48 clearances in the game, a huge amount must have been from crosses. |
Agree, Bri.
Luton are a team that put in a lot of crosses, and at times last season that was a huge weakness for us. But in both games, I thought we defended very well. With the number of balls they put in, particularly coming from the crossing specialist Doughty, you will not get through a game without conceding chances. This regular narrative of narrowed eyes and stroked chins and murmurs of ‘getting away with one’ etc is all well and good, but the reality of the sport in this division is that other teams will create chances, and chances often come from mistakes or small miscalculations from the defending team, that’s just inevitable in football (see City yesterday). |  |
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| Defending crosses on 09:51 - Sep 1 with 2234 views | golborne |
| Defending crosses on 06:45 - Sep 1 by dmm |
As to shutting down wide players before they cross, I tend to agree. It seems to me that Paal in particular often doesn't get close enough to do this.
But, I think the other way of looking at this type of situation is if the defender gets too close he can more easily be beaten and the attacker gets in behind the defence.
Perhaps it's down to specific individual tactics that are felt will work best in each game. |
I think you’re looking at the wrong side of the pitch for most of the crossed goals. It took Smyth to come on to stem that the other night. I love Dunne, but as with most big lads, first couple of yards in a sprint ain’t where they win a race. | | | |
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| Defending crosses on 10:25 - Sep 1 with 2128 views | Gus_iom |
Paal's cross for the winner was sumptuous, though. We have a footballing left back, you win some, you lose some.
Luton good at getting an overload at the back post, how does that play with zonal marking?
I like Nardi, but as someone said, he has a tendency to stay on his line, at the moment. His distribution was poor at times on Friday as well, but it's early for him and this team yet.
Edit - for our winner, there's a luton player with Frey outside the box, who then goes into full ball watching mode when Frey makes his move. It must drive managers mad. [Post edited 1 Sep 10:27]
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| Defending crosses on 10:35 - Sep 1 with 2085 views | Wilkinswatercarrier |
| Defending crosses on 08:19 - Sep 1 by BrianMcCarthy |
I woner if we defend narrow on purpose, dmm, rather than defend wide and run the risk of being beaten on the ground, then outnumbered and beaten in the air should the cross come in.
Paal does seem to get caught in between sometimes, neither closing or dropping, but then a lot of the time he's returning from an attack.
As for defending the crosses that do come in, the new keeper might be confusing things for now. Takes a while for defenders and the goalie to figure out who's coming for what. If - and I'm just guessing - that is the case then it might settle down a bit soon.
I thought we were excellent on defending crosses on Friday night.
Just looked up the stats:
Luton were succesful on 5 out of 33 crosses.
Not all of those were cleared or blocked, I'd imagine. Some would have been mishit.
But, for context, we had a massive 48 clearances in the game, a huge amount must have been from crosses. |
But if you look at Lutons goal McGuiness is completely unmarked. Paal had two Luton players either side of him.
I'm no expert, but why would we have Paal having to pickup two players, both significantly bigger and more powerful than him.
While we defend set pieces well, the second ball, or a cross from open play seems to find us disorganised. | | | |
| Defending crosses on 10:47 - Sep 1 with 2046 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Defending crosses on 10:35 - Sep 1 by Wilkinswatercarrier |
But if you look at Lutons goal McGuiness is completely unmarked. Paal had two Luton players either side of him.
I'm no expert, but why would we have Paal having to pickup two players, both significantly bigger and more powerful than him.
While we defend set pieces well, the second ball, or a cross from open play seems to find us disorganised. |
I think we can be poor on second balls alright, Wilkins.
It's a seperate issue, though, I feel.
Set pieces can be planned on the training pitch and in the video room.
Second balls have to be worked out by the players who have to respond and communicate.
On that goal, iirc, once the corner went over the heads of everyone, two or three Luton players drifted to the back post for the second ball, whereas two or three of our players drifted towards the ball. So, huge overload on Paal for the second ball. Poor from our players for not closing down the cross, and for drifting towards the ball. | |
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| Defending crosses on 10:53 - Sep 1 with 1998 views | baz_qpr |
I think it's the Keeper to be honest. Nardi rarely comes for anything and is very much an on the line shop stopper, which means more coverage is needed deeper in the 6 yard box so no surprise they are being pulled narrow. If the team are confident that the keeper has a certain area and height covered they will position differently. We looked more secure from crosses on Tuesday with Walsh as he will come catch and punch more.
Nardi is cleary an excellent shop stopper and fantastic in one on ones, Walsh seems to be better in terms of handling and crosses |  | | |
| Defending crosses on 11:30 - Sep 1 with 1837 views | golborne |
| Defending crosses on 10:25 - Sep 1 by Gus_iom |
Paal's cross for the winner was sumptuous, though. We have a footballing left back, you win some, you lose some.
Luton good at getting an overload at the back post, how does that play with zonal marking?
I like Nardi, but as someone said, he has a tendency to stay on his line, at the moment. His distribution was poor at times on Friday as well, but it's early for him and this team yet.
Edit - for our winner, there's a luton player with Frey outside the box, who then goes into full ball watching mode when Frey makes his move. It must drive managers mad. [Post edited 1 Sep 10:27]
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Smyth pulled the defender central to leave Frey on his own. Very good movement from Smyth, as he seems to glance behind him to make sure it’s a potential 2 on 1 as he makes the move from over the defender’s shoulder. | | | |
| Defending crosses on 11:37 - Sep 1 with 1802 views | Gus_iom |
| Defending crosses on 11:30 - Sep 1 by golborne |
Smyth pulled the defender central to leave Frey on his own. Very good movement from Smyth, as he seems to glance behind him to make sure it’s a potential 2 on 1 as he makes the move from over the defender’s shoulder. |
Smyth was great in all things when he came on, but watch the goal through, there's one lad next to Frey, after his initial lay off, who really just stands there as the goal develops | | | |
| Defending crosses on 11:44 - Sep 1 with 1754 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Defending crosses on 10:47 - Sep 1 by BrianMcCarthy |
I think we can be poor on second balls alright, Wilkins.
It's a seperate issue, though, I feel.
Set pieces can be planned on the training pitch and in the video room.
Second balls have to be worked out by the players who have to respond and communicate.
On that goal, iirc, once the corner went over the heads of everyone, two or three Luton players drifted to the back post for the second ball, whereas two or three of our players drifted towards the ball. So, huge overload on Paal for the second ball. Poor from our players for not closing down the cross, and for drifting towards the ball. |
I do love the football dichotomy of set pieces.
If you concede from a set piece, it's like the biggest crime. The inference is, set pieces are easiest to defend.
Yet, if you don't score from set pieces you're useless, because set pieces offer a strong chance of scoring a goal. | |
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| Defending crosses on 12:53 - Sep 1 with 1568 views | ParkRoyalR |
| Defending crosses on 10:47 - Sep 1 by BrianMcCarthy |
I think we can be poor on second balls alright, Wilkins.
It's a seperate issue, though, I feel.
Set pieces can be planned on the training pitch and in the video room.
Second balls have to be worked out by the players who have to respond and communicate.
On that goal, iirc, once the corner went over the heads of everyone, two or three Luton players drifted to the back post for the second ball, whereas two or three of our players drifted towards the ball. So, huge overload on Paal for the second ball. Poor from our players for not closing down the cross, and for drifting towards the ball. |
Whereas Cook positioning for their late chance was really poor, his movement when we conceded was really good as anticipated header back across goal and tried to cover that space,
Dunne & Frey should both have done better in challenging for first ball. | | | |
| Defending crosses on 14:06 - Sep 1 with 1443 views | Logman |
Good analysis on the crosses. Been like that for a long time - since Bidwell at least. I always thought the entire back four should shuffle across. Works at Sunday League level. I'm guessing pro defenders don't have bobbles, divots and shanks to help them out like on a Sunday morning. | | | |
| Defending crosses on 14:19 - Sep 1 with 1421 views | Rangersw12 |
| Defending crosses on 08:52 - Sep 1 by stevec |
1) No Bergovic.
I like the new keeper, great shot stopper but he is rooted to his line on crosses. There’s also the possibility that Nardi, being new, isn’t making himself heard. I would think purely on the basis Bergovic had been around the block a bit, higher level and all that, meant his shouts meant something.
Last season we conceded the least goals for years, so for all Bergovics faults, it’s hard to argue with the stats. We’ll have a better idea at the end of this season.
2) we’ve gone for ball playing wide men, small at that, no problem with that but it does mean Paal in particular and Dunne to a degree are now far more exposed, hence the time on the ball for crosses to be better directed.
Another reason why that 3 is so hard to get right. |
You mean the stat that he was the worst keeper in the Championship? | | | |
| Defending crosses on 16:55 - Sep 1 with 1073 views | T_Block |
Sot on Brian.Last season I took a pro-licence coach to one of the games, forget which.First words : they set-up very narrow | | | |
| Defending crosses on 18:43 - Sep 1 with 904 views | swisscottage |
To be fair to Paal, he's had absolutely zero cover in front of him from either Saito or Lloyd forcing him to drop off his man when there's a chance he's going to get overloaded, meaning he's not close enough to challenge when the cross comes in.
This occurs a lot less when Chair is playing because the opposition are far less likely to overload players against Paal. | | | |
| Defending crosses on 20:36 - Sep 1 with 776 views | richpr |
I wouldn't judge our ability to defend crosses on the Luton games. They have 4 or 5 huge players and probably put in more crosses than any other team. I thought we did as well as we could although there were a couple of times when Colback was marking Morris but fortunately the cheating bar steward chose to action his much practised swallow dive. What is it in these modern football shirts that, when pulled, makes the legs disappear beneath them. | | | |
| Defending crosses on 21:10 - Sep 1 with 679 views | davman |
| Defending crosses on 08:19 - Sep 1 by BrianMcCarthy |
I woner if we defend narrow on purpose, dmm, rather than defend wide and run the risk of being beaten on the ground, then outnumbered and beaten in the air should the cross come in.
Paal does seem to get caught in between sometimes, neither closing or dropping, but then a lot of the time he's returning from an attack.
As for defending the crosses that do come in, the new keeper might be confusing things for now. Takes a while for defenders and the goalie to figure out who's coming for what. If - and I'm just guessing - that is the case then it might settle down a bit soon.
I thought we were excellent on defending crosses on Friday night.
Just looked up the stats:
Luton were succesful on 5 out of 33 crosses.
Not all of those were cleared or blocked, I'd imagine. Some would have been mishit.
But, for context, we had a massive 48 clearances in the game, a huge amount must have been from crosses. |
Not really helped by the fact that 33 crosses were allowed. Is that high? Sounds quite high to me. I maintain what I say about our full backs though; they do not stop enough crosses coming in; Jimmy because of his poor positioning and Kenny because he won't get close to his winger and keeps backing off.
Back post crosses from the left are usually OK with Jimmy at the back, but ones coming in from the right might find their way to Kenny, who is not the biggest to defend and is an obvious target.
That said I DO agree with the point made in this thread how exposed Paal especially has been with Kolli, Lloyd or Saito in front of him. Their collective lack of a defensive instinct means that Kenny in particular has been overloaded if Colback or Field can't cover.
No doubt they will be working on all this and hopefully they learn fast as Sheff W is another team that will target our full backs.. |  |
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| Defending crosses on 23:00 - Sep 1 with 605 views | Bluce_Ree |
No, WWC. If you want to see a team eat shit at crosses, look at Everton yesterday. Making us look solid as fk. |  |
| Stefan Moore, Stefan Moore running down the wing. Stefan Moore, Stefan Moore running down the wing. He runs like a cheetah, his crosses couldn't be sweeter. Stefan Moore. Stefan Moore. Stefan Moore. |
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