| Tactics question 17:45 - Aug 3 with 4483 views | essextaxiboy |
Can any of our analytical types explain the objective of playing out from the back , especially so close to our own goal . How is it intended to get us up the pitch and into attack ?
I am not such a dinosaur as to want Hoof/Gaz ball but surely a quick chipped pass or a sharp low one into midfield without as many touches is safer and keeps the opposition guessing .
Its seems like it a bit of football snobbery these days that if you dont play this (cultured ) way then you are playing yesterdays game .
I like and trust Marti and I think we will have a good season , but to me this tactic feels like self harm at times . |  | | |  |
| Tactics question on 17:52 - Aug 3 with 4394 views | qpr_1968 |
i've been saying this for a long time now, been shot down for it as well.....
it only works if your good at it.....
if your no good at it, its horrible to watch and boring....
for me, there is only about six teams in the country that can play like that.
i hate it...its like chess on a football pitch, when we/qpr play it against someone good, its like watching spassky v some amateur on clacton pier. |  |
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| Tactics question on 18:01 - Aug 3 with 4334 views | ted_hendrix |
I don't think our players are 'comfortable' playing this way or maybe even not good at It or even both. |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| Tactics question on 18:07 - Aug 3 with 4287 views | Lanhoop |
Playing out from the back is all well and good when you play OUT. Problem is, we just play back again.
Cook/Clark-Salter need to step forward sometimes to break the lines and need to be better at seeing options to play forward. Cook at least tried today, Jake missed men in the open (particularly Kolli and Paal) every time.
We need a midfield who can take the ball, turn and find a man. Someone needs to sneak into Heston and write on the wall, "The decision is Field or Collback and never Field and Collback". | | | |
| Tactics question on 18:12 - Aug 3 with 4244 views | Ranger_1969 |
As I see it, the objective is 'risk and reward' football. You take a few risks around your own penalty area in an effort to beat the opposition press - that's the reward.
Today we saw how this can be effective - unfortunately for us, it was the team in Yellow.
Until we unearth midfield players who can either run quickly with the ball, or pass it quickly and accurately, we are going to struggle with it I fear.
We're going to need plenty of the pragmatism that we showed last season if we're going to do well this season.
It's great to watch when it comes off - but nerve jangling when it doesn't! | | | |
| Tactics question on 18:13 - Aug 3 with 4229 views | rbee |
When we play out from the back the player in possession has limited passing options due to the lack of mobility in midfield and attack. I noticed today when Liam Morrison came on when in possession his arms were out saying where is my pass? |  | | |
| Tactics question on 19:25 - Aug 3 with 3927 views | T_Block |
Playing out from the back comes from the theory that you win games GENERALLY by having ball possession.So in theory a football pitch is say 105m x68m so 7140 m2 with say 22 players.That is 325m2 per player about 18x18m per player.So alot of space per player to receive ,control and pass a ball.
Most teams should be able to in theory pass around any opposition given this amount of space.Now this assumes an even spread ,but it makes the point.Now if you pass out from the back and the opposition do not drop into their own half,again in theory and practice if you can pass through say a front four or five that leaves6 defenders to score against as opposed to a low block of say 8 or 9.Also in this scenario each of our attackers has fractionally more time and space.
Playing out from the back basically 'invites' a team to to move players up the pitch to positions where they are more evenly spaced out i.e.closer to the 18x18m spacing.Technically better teams can win games this way.
Cruyff basically started this at Barcelona,leading to the Spanish possession game of the 2000's to 2010's.The pressing game was the answer to that via Klopp and Dortmund.
The best teams played possession so the rest if technically good enough copied.
Our manager comes from that tradition.
All football is about either getting space and time on the ball with great ball control,
Or limiting the opposition time, space and hoping they have poor ball control.
Guardiola teams almost force the opposition to drop into their own half for fear of being passed around if they go toe to toe.Klopp teams ,at their best were the fittest on earth and ran ran to limit the time and space.To win you have to limit one of the variables of time and space | | | |
| Tactics question on 20:09 - Aug 3 with 3753 views | LazyFan |
The idea is to draw out the oppo from their half. If, you beat the press then its the same as a breakaway at that point. And breakaways create more changes than slow build ups.
Now if the oppo does not press, you can go back and forth and slowly climb up the pitch to then when you do play a ball through our midfield have it in their last third.
This approach is not the problem for us. Marti was intentionally putting us under pressure to see if we can cope with the best teams, for friendly this is a great test.
What our really problem is lack of creativity and passing under pressure as soon as we win it back. Both of these can be fixed with creative players who can also hold onto the ball. We only have Andersen to do this as Chair is out and Willock is gone.
Marti has already said we need to bring in some creative players. So, they are aware of it. |  |
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| Tactics question on 20:43 - Aug 3 with 3620 views | essextaxiboy |
I get the theory , but the teams and managers quoted, Pep, Cruyff, Klopp are all playing that way with elite players .
At our level it seems easy to play against ,watch us to identify patterns of play , identify the weak links , get your pressing players fit with replacements on the bench , hunt us down and get the crowd on edge. JCS is the only one who looks comfortable .
I suppose we trust the manager and live with it , but its worth remembering that the goal of the season last year started with a punt upfield from the keeper. | | | |
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| Tactics question on 20:50 - Aug 3 with 3568 views | charmr |
The chest pass playing back to goal. So maligned and now hardly ever used.
Worked for Jago, Sexton and Venables.
The W M formation is now back in vogue, Football goes in circles and waves like most clubs. [Post edited 3 Aug 20:53]
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| Tactics question on 20:52 - Aug 3 with 3545 views | Juzzie |
A few teams at the top are good at it so it then becomes fashionable and everyone else does it and isn’t actually that good and ends up shipping goals.
Forget what other teams/managers are doing, stick to your own strengths at let the opponent worry about that. |  | | |
| Tactics question on 21:53 - Aug 3 with 3341 views | OakR |
I generally like it, but it very much depends on your keeper and other players being comfortable on the ball, running into space, being available for the pass etc.
McLaren I think tried it with Ingram in goal and a team not suited to it - it was a disaster and painful to watch.
You have to be brave to do it also, as a player and manager. Kicking it long it safer in the short-term and no-one really blames the person giving the ball away at that time, unlike if you do giving it away at passing it out near the goal.
If we do it, you have w to accept we will concede a few goals from it, but hope the positives from it outweigh that, and also that the more we do it the better we will get at it.
I guess ultimately more possession and a higher chance of keeping the ball doing it this way is the aim.
I would as mentioned above still like some variety in terms of chipped passes forward and periodic longer balls to Dunne on the wing - good to keep the other team guessing also.
Ultimately I assume there is some analysis somewhere that if you do this right the net outcome is a positive one. Whilst we won't do it as well as Man City etc, it's also true other teams we will play won't punish us as much as a Liverpool or have as good a press. | |
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| Tactics question on 22:10 - Aug 3 with 3267 views | bosh67 |
| Tactics question on 18:01 - Aug 3 by ted_hendrix |
I don't think our players are 'comfortable' playing this way or maybe even not good at It or even both. |
It's more a case of not really being quite good enough. Marti may have to modify it if we come unstuck in the first few games. |  |
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| Tactics question on 22:11 - Aug 3 with 3268 views | dannyblue |
We had much less movement from our front 4 which made it harder when playing out too. Brighton's front 4 were much better at showing for the ball, just as they were better at pressing our defenders.
I never understand poor movement. It frustrates me. It's not really a matter of skill or quality or even of intelligence. Just move where and how you're coached to in response to certain situations and keep doing it. Never stand still on your heals when we have the ball. |  | | |
| Tactics question on 22:11 - Aug 3 with 3267 views | loftupper |
If we had a midfielder that could play on the half turn then defenders could play it through the the middle. At the moment they pretty much know its coming straight back if they play it forward. Generally meaning they get pushed backwards and into trouble.
Hopefully Varane if it happens will be that player | | | |
| Tactics question on 23:00 - Aug 3 with 3136 views | ozexile |
I personally only like seeing it passed out from the back in open play ie the keeper catches it and we play quickly. To start on your own 6 yd box with 11 men in front of you doesn't make sense to me. But hey that's why I'm on a key board and not in the technical area. | | | |
| Tactics question on 23:00 - Aug 3 with 3134 views | dmm |
The question at thia point is, does Cifuentes have t we players able to play the way he wants? At the moment I don't think we do. |  | | |
| Tactics question on 00:32 - Aug 4 with 3004 views | Hastings_Hoops |
Marti has spoken - you’ll all be pleased to know:
“"I value the braveness of our players to try to play out from the back. Sometimes we need to go a little more direct against teams that are pressing so much.” |  | | |
| Tactics question on 00:53 - Aug 4 with 2974 views | GaryHaddock |
Draws out the press and creates spaces behind the attackers (in theory).
I can’t remember who authored it, but prior to his appointment there was a review of his time at Hammerby where they said it was a signature style of his.
I thought it worked well against Spurs. [Post edited 4 Aug 0:54]
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| Tactics question on 07:55 - Aug 4 with 2714 views | QPROslo |
We have to be able to Vary our play out from the back. Going long all the time will mostly mean we are giving the ball away most of the time even with Dykes and Dunne playing. Playing out from the back all the time will also make us all too predictable, especially when we dont have enough players who are good at it as now. We did need to practice it as yesterday. | | | |
| Tactics question on 08:35 - Aug 4 with 2542 views | kernowhoop |
It was a good question and one that many fans must be asking.
It starts with the perfectly reasonable thinking, that you cannot score goals (OK, except og) without possession. But, at times, it can be tedious to watch and it is not an end in itself. If it does not disrupt the positioning ('shape') of the opposition it is particularly frustrating.
Our problem seems to be how to move the ball from aimless, tip-tap movements around our own penalty area, to an attacking position. Not much point in hitting it long, on to the head or feet of an opposition defender - albeit, we do that too often. The answer is surely that we must have players in the middle, who are comfortable receiving the ball when they have an opponent inches away. With that in mind, I wonder how we would have performed against Brighton if Ilias Chair had been on the pitch? | | | |
| Tactics question on 08:47 - Aug 4 with 2476 views | stevec |
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| Tactics question on 09:13 - Aug 4 with 2389 views | gazza1 |
In very simplistic terms......
It should draw the opposition players forward leaving the opposition short of players in defending areas and more space & time for our attacking play.
It is a constant worry!!! | | | |
| Tactics question on 09:44 - Aug 4 with 2322 views | Gus_iom |
| Tactics question on 09:13 - Aug 4 by gazza1 |
In very simplistic terms......
It should draw the opposition players forward leaving the opposition short of players in defending areas and more space & time for our attacking play.
It is a constant worry!!! |
Which depends on those up the pitch moving the ball, and themselves, quickly.
It's interesting how the mantra changes. It's now about dominating possession, it used to be 'most goals come from 3 touches or less'. | | | |
| Tactics question on 09:52 - Aug 4 with 2271 views | Burnleyhoop |
| Tactics question on 00:32 - Aug 4 by Hastings_Hoops |
Marti has spoken - you’ll all be pleased to know:
“"I value the braveness of our players to try to play out from the back. Sometimes we need to go a little more direct against teams that are pressing so much.” |
Our direct option usually involves Cook hitting it to the oppo’ corner flag and the berating Smythe for not chasing it.
We need to be able to mix it up , but we still don’t appear to have everyone working on the same page. Smythe and Kolli barely saw the ball in the first off and need to be more mobile by dropping deeper or inside to provide an option.
Suspect it’s going to be a tough few weeks until Chair is back and Varane has bedded in. | | | |
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