| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see 21:12 - Aug 28 with 6871 views | vetchonian |
I have begun to wonder why it is managers seem not to be able to spot the issues in a team that we fans see such as the unbalanced midfield with Grimes and Fulton,five at the back for example.
This seems to be not unique to Duff as these things were highlighted under Martin too and over the years many of our mamagers even before the advent of the Internet had critique by fans of things not right in the team.
Surely if us "amateurs " can see this why dont the "pros"
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| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 21:33 - Aug 28 with 5632 views | Treforys_Jack |
Asked myself that many times. It's like why was Grimes on dead ball duty for a few seasons despite creating absolutely nothing. It must be the rest were even worse. Totally agree avout Fulton and Grimes. |  | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 21:35 - Aug 28 with 5629 views | Boundy |
IMO who we've recently had as manager has set up their teams to nullify the opposition threat rather than have them worry about us which in turn making us look rather negative especially so at home , also maybe appearance money has a factor , who knows but it is strange to witness such recurrences | |
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| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 08:20 - Aug 29 with 5436 views | jack247 |
Martin was undoubtedly stubborn. See how long Duff persists with it if results don’t start coming. | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 09:23 - Aug 29 with 5376 views | ploppy |
The answer is obvious, surely. They know more than us. | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 09:26 - Aug 29 with 5373 views | raynor94 |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 09:23 - Aug 29 by ploppy |
The answer is obvious, surely. They know more than us. |
Agree |  |
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| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 09:33 - Aug 29 with 5352 views | jack247 |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 09:23 - Aug 29 by ploppy |
The answer is obvious, surely. They know more than us. |
To be fair, very hard to argue with that. There will be a reason, we just can’t see it.
I can see peoples points though. Martin persisted with 5 at the back and kept losing. As soon as he did what most people had been calling for he started winning. Now Duff has gone 5 at the back and he’s losing.
Maybe it’s a lot more effective with the type of player he’s expecting to bring in. | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 09:33 - Aug 29 with 5352 views | Whiterockin |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 09:26 - Aug 29 by raynor94 |
Agree |
I have always felt the same about players. Ferrie Bodde is the only player for us who could pick a pass that we could see in the stands |  | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 10:08 - Aug 29 with 5301 views | onehunglow |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 09:23 - Aug 29 by ploppy |
The answer is obvious, surely. They know more than us. |
What did Martin know about Fish that we didn’t .
Managers should not have favourites and pick on merit. | |
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| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 11:21 - Aug 29 with 5240 views | jack247 |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 10:08 - Aug 29 by onehunglow |
What did Martin know about Fish that we didn’t .
Managers should not have favourites and pick on merit. |
Initially yes, but Benda had worked his way back to number one. He just got injured. | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 12:04 - Aug 29 with 5188 views | A_Fans_Dad |
I can understand it during the game as they are on the sidelene and do not see the overall field picture that fans in the stands and watching TV see.
But surely they must see it in the after match video analysis?
Or don't they use it anymore?
If they had someone communicating with them from high up in the stands who can see what is happening as some league rugby teams do maybe they could make better and quicker decisions.
But not if they are stubborn enough to think that they made the right decisions at the start of the match and don't need to react to the oppo changes even when it is obvious we are getting slaughtered, in which case they shouldn't be managing. | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 12:57 - Aug 29 with 5146 views | ploppy |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 09:33 - Aug 29 by jack247 |
To be fair, very hard to argue with that. There will be a reason, we just can’t see it.
I can see peoples points though. Martin persisted with 5 at the back and kept losing. As soon as he did what most people had been calling for he started winning. Now Duff has gone 5 at the back and he’s losing.
Maybe it’s a lot more effective with the type of player he’s expecting to bring in. |
I'm confused. Some people were complaining that Martin was playing 5 at the back when clearly we were playing 3. Some people were complaining that we were playing 3 and wanted to play 4.
So which is it with Duff? Darling, Cabango and Wood are clearly a back 3. Key and Ashby spending most of their time in advanced positions don't make it a back 5.
Many teams play 3 at the back now, and the reasons are obvious. Firstly, you can easily switch to 3 when in possession and 5 when not, if you feel like it. Secondly, many teams only play one up front, sometimes two, so having a back 5 against one striker makes absolutely no sense. You end up being overrun in midfield. Even 4 against one makes no sense.
And to suggest (not you) that that the manager doesn't know what's going on on the field is laughable, IMHO. | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 13:13 - Aug 29 with 5119 views | jack247 |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 12:57 - Aug 29 by ploppy |
I'm confused. Some people were complaining that Martin was playing 5 at the back when clearly we were playing 3. Some people were complaining that we were playing 3 and wanted to play 4.
So which is it with Duff? Darling, Cabango and Wood are clearly a back 3. Key and Ashby spending most of their time in advanced positions don't make it a back 5.
Many teams play 3 at the back now, and the reasons are obvious. Firstly, you can easily switch to 3 when in possession and 5 when not, if you feel like it. Secondly, many teams only play one up front, sometimes two, so having a back 5 against one striker makes absolutely no sense. You end up being overrun in midfield. Even 4 against one makes no sense.
And to suggest (not you) that that the manager doesn't know what's going on on the field is laughable, IMHO. |
Yeah fair enough, it’s lazy to call it a 532 when the wing backs are so high up the pitch now and were even more so under Marin.
Back 3 then. I wouldn’t be as arrogant or as stupid to suggest I understand a fraction of what a championship level manager does.
In theory it’s fine. If the wingbacks cover full back and winger, you’ve effectively got numerical advantages everywhere. That’s not happening at the moment.
The back 3 often look like they don’t know who to pick up. The first goal scorer was Darlings man Saturday, but watching it back, it seemed like he was expecting Cabango to challenge for it. | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 13:31 - Aug 29 with 5099 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 13:13 - Aug 29 by jack247 |
Yeah fair enough, it’s lazy to call it a 532 when the wing backs are so high up the pitch now and were even more so under Marin.
Back 3 then. I wouldn’t be as arrogant or as stupid to suggest I understand a fraction of what a championship level manager does.
In theory it’s fine. If the wingbacks cover full back and winger, you’ve effectively got numerical advantages everywhere. That’s not happening at the moment.
The back 3 often look like they don’t know who to pick up. The first goal scorer was Darlings man Saturday, but watching it back, it seemed like he was expecting Cabango to challenge for it. |
You do understand a fraction of it, it's the size of the fraction that's debatable.
Under Martin the wing backs were usually to high up and couldn't get back to defend.
Under Duff the 3 CB's seem a bit lost at times, they try to play keep ball but we haven't had the movement in midfield to make it easier for them, that was very true at Preston, we were playing statues again in the second half and made it easy for the oppo.
This bit...In theory it’s fine. If the wingbacks cover full back and winger, you’ve effectively got numerical advantages everywhere.... is wrong sorry. you cannot have numerical advantages everywhere. Both teams have the same number of players, if we have a numerical advantage in defence and win the ball back then looking forward the oppo must have a numerical advantage somewhere too.
I'd say it was Darlings man too but he stood still, he's becoming a liability. If we can't defend properly using wing backs we need to go to make changes. Martin stuck by his preferred formation long after it was clear we didn't have the players for it, is Duff making the same choices? | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 13:43 - Aug 29 with 5085 views | jack247 |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 13:31 - Aug 29 by SullutaCreturned |
You do understand a fraction of it, it's the size of the fraction that's debatable.
Under Martin the wing backs were usually to high up and couldn't get back to defend.
Under Duff the 3 CB's seem a bit lost at times, they try to play keep ball but we haven't had the movement in midfield to make it easier for them, that was very true at Preston, we were playing statues again in the second half and made it easy for the oppo.
This bit...In theory it’s fine. If the wingbacks cover full back and winger, you’ve effectively got numerical advantages everywhere.... is wrong sorry. you cannot have numerical advantages everywhere. Both teams have the same number of players, if we have a numerical advantage in defence and win the ball back then looking forward the oppo must have a numerical advantage somewhere too.
I'd say it was Darlings man too but he stood still, he's becoming a liability. If we can't defend properly using wing backs we need to go to make changes. Martin stuck by his preferred formation long after it was clear we didn't have the players for it, is Duff making the same choices? |
Turn of phrase. I only understand a tiny fraction…..if you prefer.
Bit about movement in midfield. Completely agree. Fulton has been especially guilty of it this season. He’s great at winning the ball. He’s not as confident receiving it in a congested midfield with opponents breathing down his neck.
‘Effectively’. It’s still 11 v 11. The idea of wingbacks is you have 5 in defence when defending and 5 in midfield/attack when going forward. It doesn’t matter if the opposition have a numerical advantage in an irrelevant part of the pitch.
Yeah it was definitely Darlings man. What I should have said was in a 4, he’d have been certain it was his man and potentially would have put in more of a challenge.
Is Duff falling into the same trap as Martin? It looks like it to me, but as Ploppy has said, they are both far more knowledgeable than me. | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 13:53 - Aug 29 with 5070 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 13:43 - Aug 29 by jack247 |
Turn of phrase. I only understand a tiny fraction…..if you prefer.
Bit about movement in midfield. Completely agree. Fulton has been especially guilty of it this season. He’s great at winning the ball. He’s not as confident receiving it in a congested midfield with opponents breathing down his neck.
‘Effectively’. It’s still 11 v 11. The idea of wingbacks is you have 5 in defence when defending and 5 in midfield/attack when going forward. It doesn’t matter if the opposition have a numerical advantage in an irrelevant part of the pitch.
Yeah it was definitely Darlings man. What I should have said was in a 4, he’d have been certain it was his man and potentially would have put in more of a challenge.
Is Duff falling into the same trap as Martin? It looks like it to me, but as Ploppy has said, they are both far more knowledgeable than me. |
The idea of the numerical advantage anywhere being irrelevant is alien to me, if we have 5 back against 3, when we look to break forward then the oppo already have more men behind the ball, its never irrelevant, as the great Brian Clough said, if a player isn't interfering with play....
Besides which, if you do manage a numerical advanatge then you need to break with pace and how many times have we managed that? We lose any advantage we create by being so slow. | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 14:03 - Aug 29 with 5048 views | jack247 |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 13:53 - Aug 29 by SullutaCreturned |
The idea of the numerical advantage anywhere being irrelevant is alien to me, if we have 5 back against 3, when we look to break forward then the oppo already have more men behind the ball, its never irrelevant, as the great Brian Clough said, if a player isn't interfering with play....
Besides which, if you do manage a numerical advanatge then you need to break with pace and how many times have we managed that? We lose any advantage we create by being so slow. |
Yes, absolutely. It’s not working. I’m not trying to pretend we’re playing with wingbacks effectively, in fact that’s my point. It works in theory, we.can’t make it work in practice.
Martinez’ triangle system was based on creating small numerical advantages (3 v 2 , 2 v 1 etc) all over the pitch. That’s the most obvious example I can think of because he made it work. | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 14:05 - Aug 29 with 5042 views | BryanSwan |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 13:13 - Aug 29 by jack247 |
Yeah fair enough, it’s lazy to call it a 532 when the wing backs are so high up the pitch now and were even more so under Marin.
Back 3 then. I wouldn’t be as arrogant or as stupid to suggest I understand a fraction of what a championship level manager does.
In theory it’s fine. If the wingbacks cover full back and winger, you’ve effectively got numerical advantages everywhere. That’s not happening at the moment.
The back 3 often look like they don’t know who to pick up. The first goal scorer was Darlings man Saturday, but watching it back, it seemed like he was expecting Cabango to challenge for it. |
Whilst it may be simplistic it is still correct, I would prefer to break it down into attacking/defensively minded players.
In the current set up we have 7 defensively minded players on the pitch compared to 3 attacking ones. (I will not have so called "wingbacks" being portrayed as attacking players).
Most of the better teams in this league are playing with a back 4 and true width. I slated our system last year and will continue to do so this year. | |
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| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 14:13 - Aug 29 with 5020 views | jack247 |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 14:05 - Aug 29 by BryanSwan |
Whilst it may be simplistic it is still correct, I would prefer to break it down into attacking/defensively minded players.
In the current set up we have 7 defensively minded players on the pitch compared to 3 attacking ones. (I will not have so called "wingbacks" being portrayed as attacking players).
Most of the better teams in this league are playing with a back 4 and true width. I slated our system last year and will continue to do so this year. |
Yeah I agree with you. If I was picking the team it would be 433 or 451. No one can seriously argue with Ploppys point though.
I wouldn’t call Key or Ashby defensive minded, it’s just a label for their position. Certainly the likes of Laird, Wolf and Christie weren’t defensive for us. Manning got forward a lot. | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 14:53 - Aug 29 with 4979 views | BryanSwan |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 14:13 - Aug 29 by jack247 |
Yeah I agree with you. If I was picking the team it would be 433 or 451. No one can seriously argue with Ploppys point though.
I wouldn’t call Key or Ashby defensive minded, it’s just a label for their position. Certainly the likes of Laird, Wolf and Christie weren’t defensive for us. Manning got forward a lot. |
The current system and Martins relied on fullbacks being in the positions of traditional wingers when attacking. In my opinion none of them are capable of playing as a winger offensively and therefore i wouldnt consider them "attacking" as such. ( just my view on it).
Unfortunately i can't see us adopting a more attacking strategy in the near future. | |
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| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 14:56 - Aug 29 with 4979 views | jasper_T |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 09:23 - Aug 29 by ploppy |
The answer is obvious, surely. They know more than us. |
That's definitely the logic some managers use to not have to reassess their approach. "All these thicko fans are telling me to do x, but I'm an ex-pro with badges so I should stick with y even though it's not been working for months". | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 15:05 - Aug 29 with 4949 views | jack247 |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 14:53 - Aug 29 by BryanSwan |
The current system and Martins relied on fullbacks being in the positions of traditional wingers when attacking. In my opinion none of them are capable of playing as a winger offensively and therefore i wouldnt consider them "attacking" as such. ( just my view on it).
Unfortunately i can't see us adopting a more attacking strategy in the near future. |
I agree with the last part. Martin was stubborn beyond belief. I don’t know, but gut feeling is Duff is the same.
In both cases (obviously with the caveat Duff could change it tonight for all I know) I get the feeling they’ve come here with a preconceived idea of how they want to play and if the players don’t suit it they’d sooner change the players than the system. | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 15:14 - Aug 29 with 4941 views | ploppy |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 14:56 - Aug 29 by jasper_T |
That's definitely the logic some managers use to not have to reassess their approach. "All these thicko fans are telling me to do x, but I'm an ex-pro with badges so I should stick with y even though it's not been working for months". |
I'd be amazed if any manager listens to, let alone takes "advice" from, fans. | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 15:40 - Aug 29 with 4906 views | Whiterockin |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 15:14 - Aug 29 by ploppy |
I'd be amazed if any manager listens to, let alone takes "advice" from, fans. |
Agreed, but you don't need to be an English teacher to see when someone can't spell. | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 19:29 - Aug 29 with 4789 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 14:53 - Aug 29 by BryanSwan |
The current system and Martins relied on fullbacks being in the positions of traditional wingers when attacking. In my opinion none of them are capable of playing as a winger offensively and therefore i wouldnt consider them "attacking" as such. ( just my view on it).
Unfortunately i can't see us adopting a more attacking strategy in the near future. |
My opinion this season is the same as the last 2 seasons, if we go 3-5-2 then get proper wingers in and ask them to track back. Dyer and Routs used to track back, why be obsessed with something that hasn't worked.
In support of jaspers post, I was sat with Fireboy in Preston and we could both see what was coming but fireboy was the first one to say it.
If fans can see what's coming then why can't the manager/coach?
We could all see the problem down our left side yet nothing was done about the tactical switch until it was too late. Then, after 80 minutes of making no physical impression in Preston's box he put Kuharevich on who managed to produce 2 decent moments out of very little and his size and strength was clearly having an effect. I'd been calling for him after the hour, he should have been on sooner because Preston basically bullied us for much of the game.
You can be an ex pro with all the badges but it doesn't guarantee you'll be a decent manager.
And in saying that, no I don't think I'd be a good manager, making the calls from the stands is far easier than from the dugout.
I did think Duff had siad though, we would be more high tempo, more front foot. I do hope we haven't signed a manager who's turning into Martin Mk2. Time will tell. | | | |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 20:29 - Aug 29 with 4732 views | max936 |
| Why is it managers cant see what we fans see on 19:29 - Aug 29 by SullutaCreturned |
My opinion this season is the same as the last 2 seasons, if we go 3-5-2 then get proper wingers in and ask them to track back. Dyer and Routs used to track back, why be obsessed with something that hasn't worked.
In support of jaspers post, I was sat with Fireboy in Preston and we could both see what was coming but fireboy was the first one to say it.
If fans can see what's coming then why can't the manager/coach?
We could all see the problem down our left side yet nothing was done about the tactical switch until it was too late. Then, after 80 minutes of making no physical impression in Preston's box he put Kuharevich on who managed to produce 2 decent moments out of very little and his size and strength was clearly having an effect. I'd been calling for him after the hour, he should have been on sooner because Preston basically bullied us for much of the game.
You can be an ex pro with all the badges but it doesn't guarantee you'll be a decent manager.
And in saying that, no I don't think I'd be a good manager, making the calls from the stands is far easier than from the dugout.
I did think Duff had siad though, we would be more high tempo, more front foot. I do hope we haven't signed a manager who's turning into Martin Mk2. Time will tell. |
"I did think Duff had said though, we would be more high tempo, more front foot. I do hope we haven't signed a manager who's turning into Martin Mk2. Time will tell.
To be honest I don't think Duff knows as whether have a shite or an haircut at the moment, after watching us Saturday, I'm unable to come to any other conclusion to be honest! |  |
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